The most dangerous discussion on the wire

[Black Angus McPherson]

OK, the title to this thread is only half joking.  I have a question about poisons/drugs.  The type of question that would be brought up in any trial where a person was poisoned.

 

First, I have no thoughts to actually poison anybody now or ever, but I have questions.  The question came to me the other night while I was trying to go to sleep and my thoughts rambled to Shakespeare's Hamlet, or MacBeth (I don't really know which)

 

I began to wonder about the king that was killed by having poison poured into his ear while he slept, then the queen who was poisoned by drinking the cup of wine and then Hamlet/MacBeth who was killed by a cut from a poisoned sword and the other guy that was killed by a cut from the same sword.  The king killed by being stabbed in the heart with the poisoned sword isn't in question.

 

The questions relate to what poison(s) could kill a person within minutes of being poured into an ear, drunk, or due to exposure to a fairly minor cut.  I realize the poison on the blade may be a very different type than that poured into an ear or in a cup of wine.

 

In the plays/movies (yeah, I know, it's a fiction) There is very little recognition by the person poisoned other than:  "Oooh, I've been poisoned"  <thud>.   Is there actually a poison that works that quickly?

I believe cyanide and/or arsenic can be fairly quick with a large enough dose, but I think there is a violent reaction to those drugs and I don't think either could be effectively applied to a blade.

 

Speaking of cyanide, in the movies they bite the capsule, foam at the mouth, shudder and die.  Is that at all accurate?

 

I have heard Fentynal(sp) can be very deadly, but I don't know how it works, or how quickly.  Could that be applied to a blade?  Would it have a taste in wine?  Does a body react violently to it?

 

Similar questions about a person being drugged.  In the movies it's often tasteless and shortly after being ingested it's:   "Ooooh, you drugged me."  <stumble, stumble, thud>

Hmmm, that makes me think of the "date-rape" drug.  Can't think of the name now.  I don't think that ends with a quick <thud> or it would draw more notice leaving the bar carrying somebody.  I THINK it just makes them look and act very drunk.

 

Does Ether or Chloroform knock a person out as fast as shown in movies?  Or is that just another "It's a movie.  It doesn't work that way?

 

I realize this is a weird, bizarre even, topic.  So if the moderators find it inappropriate for the SASS wire feel free to delete it.  I'm not writing a book or researching for anything, I'm just honestly curious.

 

Help me, Alpo, you're my only hope.  

 

Black Angus McPherson

I'm sure the FBI already knows how to find me.

Or they will after they read this.

 

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

My only knowledge/experience is with ether. It does knock you out quickly. I just got a few drops on a face mask/strainer and I was out.

[Alpo]

32 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

Help me, Alpo, you're my only hope. 

I recall reading some years back that cyanide does not work anywhere near as fast as it does in spy fiction. They bite down on that Sinai (obviously otto gets his poison from Egypt) capsule and it takes a half hour or so before it'll kill them.

 

Most drugs, according to the literature I have read (and I'm talking factual literature, not fiction) have very strong flavors.

 

Be like putting an ounce of  Coca-Cola into a 3 ounce glass of chardonnay. You would taste it.

 

Most poisons seem to be quite bitter. You would need to be drinking a strong and/or bitter drink to cover it up.

 

The dropping the poison in his ear?? Maybe some sort of acid, but I can't think of any poison that would be absorbed through the skin. Unless they had DMSO back during Shakespeare's time.

 

A cut with a poisoned blade. Hmmm. Maybe if the poison was from one of those South American frogs. Or fugu (Tetrodotoxin). And I'm not even sure they would kill that quickly.

Edited September 30 by Alpo

[Eyesa Horg]

Fentanyl is almost instant when you go in for Colonoscopy! So enough to OD would be seem quick as well. For a while a few years ago LEO's were claiming almost being killed just by touching the baggie the druggy was carrying. I figured that was hype as all the druggies would be croaking just buying it!

[Blackwater 53393]

Rohypnol is the “date rape” drug.

 

It’s thought that Henbane was the “cruel hebanon” used to kill Hamlet’s father. From what I can gather, it CAN be deadly and can be absorbed through a membrane like inner ear or nose.

 

Sodium pentathol is quick, (a minute or less when injected) and will work in combination with other drugs, but while it can be administered orally, it is neither quick nor dependable.

 

The regular internet discourages searches for substances like those described in the OP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

Geez, don't be Googling poisons!! What if you need to take someone out next month? They'll be all over your search history.

[Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428]

And always remember the last words of Socrates... "I drank what?"

 

Apparently Hemlock Tea is not a quick one, according to Plato he continued to speak until the paralysis caused respiratory failure.

[PowderRiverCowboy]

22 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Geez, don't be Googling poisons!! What if you need to take someone out next month? They'll be all over your search history.

 

Hush its not water boarding if your use diesel

[Black Angus McPherson]

1 hour ago, Alpo said:

I recall reading some years back that cyanide does not work anywhere near as fast as it does in spy fiction. They bite down on that Sinai (obviously otto gets his poison from Egypt) capsule and it takes a half hour or so before it'll kill them.

 

Most drugs, according to the literature I have read (and I'm talking factual literature, not fiction) have very strong flavors.

 

Be like putting an ounce of  Coca-Cola into a 3 ounce glass of chardonnay. You would taste it.  Kind of what I was thinking.

 

Most poisons seem to be quite bitter. You would need to be drinking a strong and/or bitter drink to cover it up.

 

The dropping the poison in his ear?? Maybe some sort of acid, but I can't think of any poison that would be absorbed through the skin. Unless they had DMSO back during Shakespeare's time.  I don't know what DMSO is.

 

A cut with a poisoned blade. Hmmm. Maybe if the poison was from one of those South American frogs. Or fugu (Tetrodotoxin). And I'm not even sure they would kill that quickly.  I was wondering about the venom from that "2 step snake".  Get bit, take two steps, die.

 

Comments in the quote

Edited September 30 by Black Angus McPherson

[Rip Snorter]

Curare - dart poison.  Strychnine - various pests and predators in the past, now only legal for pocket gophers..  Narcotics - last surgery the anesthesiologist told me to count to ten - made it to three.  Quick!

Edited September 30 by Rip Snorter
Typo

[Alpo]

15 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Strychnine

I was looking that up a couple of days ago.

 

Movie I was watching - the Greene Murder Case, Philo Vance - from 1929. The doctor said that some drugs were missing from his bag. Morphine and strychnine.

 

The morphine made sense, but - What the hell would you be using a poison for?? I thought to myself. Nowadays, nothing.

 

But in the late 1800s / early 1900s, a solution of strychnine was used as a muscle stimulant. And one of the people of interest in this movie was supposedly paralyzed and had not been out of her bed for 10 years. But another one of the people of interest said that she saw mother downstairs walking.

 

Spoiler alert - this was such a shock to me because Jean Arthur was the murderer. She's always a good girl. Her first role in a talkie.

 

Apparently she was adopted. Her father died in an asylum for the criminally insane. She had inherited his criminally insane tendencies - I didn't know you could do that. And so she shot both brothers and her mother and tried her damnedest to shoot her sister, and then pushed her off the roof to fall in the icy river to freeze and drown, because she wanted to inherit everything.

[Alpo]

31 minutes ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

  I don't know what DMSO is.

I do not remember what the initial stand for - dimethyl somethingorother. It is a liquid with mild analgesic properties, so you can rub it on a bruise and the bruise won't hurt as much. But it also will allow anything that is dissolved in it to be absorbed directly into the skin. Instead of swallowing the drug and it having to have your stomach break it down and then go through your bowels and eventually get into your bloodstream to make the pain go away, you can put it in the DMSO and just rub it on the spot.

 

Makes your breath smell like you just ate a bunch of garlic.

[Irish Pat]

seems like I read Hitler, Himmler, and Goering all had cyanide capsules in their mouths and bit into them and died instantly 

[John Kloehr]

11 minutes ago, Irish Pat said:

seems like I read Hitler, Himmler, and Goering all had cyanide capsules in their mouths and bit into them and died instantly 

Hollywood, not instant. And not comfortable from what I have read, but then a fair trial followed by hanging was the alternative. Anyway, Hitler blew his brains out, so that would be lead poisoning.

 

The Fentanyl reports are mixed, the hardest ones are the babies and the damn dealers and addicts who will not admit to the exposure. Officers here carry two doses of NarCan, one for a victim and the other for a fellow officer.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I know nothing 

 

Edited October 1 by Rye Miles #13621

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Bitter almonds

[Pat Riot]

Well, if you’re ever lonely try the searches for these poisons and ask specific questions like; “How to make (poison concoction) and how long does it take to kill?” Along with questions regarding “best way to dispose of bodies” and such. 
Your law enforcement visitors might normally appreciate cool or hot drinks and snacks, but don’t be offended when they don’t accept your kind offer. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

27 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

Well, if you’re ever lonely try the searches for these poisons and ask specific questions like; “How to make (poison concoction) and how long does it take to kill?” Along with questions regarding “best way to dispose of bodies” and such. 
Your law enforcement visitors might normally appreciate cool or hot drinks and snacks, but don’t be offended when they don’t accept your kind offer. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re already monitoring this post! 🙄

Edited October 1 by Rye Miles #13621

[Pat Riot]

31 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re already monitoring this post! 🙄

[Dantankerous]

Chloroform certainly will knock you out. My experience in a chemical plant that manufacturers pharmacuetical grade chloroform tells me that. Maybe not applied on a rag held over the mouth like in the movies, but when several gallons of liquid hit hot concrete in August and immediately vaporizes and a person is not in an air fed mask, he's going down. Not dead, just out. He'll have one hell of a headache too upon waking. This assumes a small non-continuing exposure and/or removal from contaminated area. If the spill and exposure continues and the person is still in the exposure/release area death will follow. 

 

 

[Black Angus McPherson]

23 hours ago, Alpo said:

I recall reading some years back that cyanide does not work anywhere near as fast as it does in spy fiction. They bite down on that Sinai (obviously otto gets his poison from Egypt) capsule and it takes a half hour or so before it'll kill them.

 

Most drugs, according to the literature I have read (and I'm talking factual literature, not fiction) have very strong flavors.

 

Be like putting an ounce of  Coca-Cola into a 3 ounce glass of chardonnay. You would taste it.

 

Most poisons seem to be quite bitter. You would need to be drinking a strong and/or bitter drink to cover it up.

 

The dropping the poison in his ear?? Maybe some sort of acid, but I can't think of any poison that would be absorbed through the skin. Unless they had DMSO back during Shakespeare's time.

 

A cut with a poisoned blade. Hmmm. Maybe if the poison was from one of those South American frogs. Or fugu (Tetrodotoxin). And I'm not even sure they would kill that quickly.

 

I thought I posted a reply to some of these yesterday, but I don't see it, so:

 

I wondered about a strong taste or at least altered flavor from some of these.

 

For the blade poison I was wondering about the venom of one of those "2 step" snakes.  Get bit, take two steps, die.  But that would have been too fast for the story.

 

23 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Rohypnol is the “date rape” drug.

 

It’s thought that Henbane was the “cruel hebanon” used to kill Hamlet’s father. From what I can gather, it CAN be deadly and can be absorbed through a membrane like inner ear or nose.

 

Sodium pentathol is quick, (a minute or less when injected) and will work in combination with other drugs, but while it can be administered orally, it is neither quick nor dependable.

 

The regular internet discourages searches for substances like those described in the OP.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What is Henbane?  Is it derived from a plant or animal?

Sodium Pentothal would certainly work, BUT it is normally injected.  Would it be effective if swallowed (oops, just saw you said it would) or through a cut?  Also, must it be used in combination with other drugs to be effective?    Kind of hard to jab a guy with a needle without him noticing.  Along those lines - does it need to be in a vein?  

 

 

22 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Geez, don't be Googling poisons!! What if you need to take someone out next month? They'll be all over your search history.

 

Which is why this thread is titled "The most dangerous discussion on the wire"

 

22 hours ago, Rip Snorter said:

Curare - dart poison.  Strychnine - various pests and predators in the past, now only legal for pocket gophers..  Narcotics - last surgery the anesthesiologist told me to count to ten - made it to three.  Quick!

 

How could I have forgotten about Curare and Strychnine?  They were commonly used in the old movies.

 

But, how fast acting and effective is curare?  Is it fatal or does it just knock you out.

 

From what I think I remember about strychnine the result is violent muscle spasms and can be recognizable from the condition of the corpse.  Not sure how fast acting it is, either.  For that matter, I don't recall how it is administered.  Orally?

 

Still a little curious about Rohypnol (date-rape drug).  How fast acting is it?  And how "out of it" does it render its victim?  Complete unconsciousness and dead-weight, or very drunk acting and guidable?  I believe there is some loss of memory involved also.

 

From the spy movie, kidnapping perspective it seems like Ether, Chloroform or Rohypnol would be the weapon of choice.

 

I find this discussion fascinating, but I must admit, it makes me feel a little creepy, too.  

 

Angus

 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

 

I thought I posted a reply to some of these yesterday, but I don't see it, so:

 

I wondered about a strong taste or at least altered flavor from some of these.

 

For the blade poison I was wondering about the venom of one of those "2 step" snakes.  Get bit, take two steps, die.  But that would have been too fast for the story.

 

 

What is Henbane?  Is it derived from a plant or animal?

Sodium Pentothal would certainly work, BUT it is normally injected.  Would it be effective if swallowed (oops, just saw you said it would) or through a cut?  Also, must it be used in combination with other drugs to be effective?    Kind of hard to jab a guy with a needle without him noticing.  Along those lines - does it need to be in a vein?  

 

 

 

Which is why this thread is titled "The most dangerous discussion on the wire"

 

 

How could I have forgotten about Curare and Strychnine?  They were commonly used in the old movies.

 

But, how fast acting and effective is curare?  Is it fatal or does it just knock you out.

 

From what I think I remember about strychnine the result is violent muscle spasms and can be recognizable from the condition of the corpse.  Not sure how fast acting it is, either.  For that matter, I don't recall how it is administered.  Orally?

 

Still a little curious about Rohypnol (date-rape drug).  How fast acting is it?  And how "out of it" does it render its victim?  Complete unconsciousness and dead-weight, or very drunk acting and guidable?  I believe there is some loss of memory involved also.

 

From the spy movie, kidnapping perspective it seems like Ether, Chloroform or Rohypnol would be the weapon of choice.

 

I find this discussion fascinating, but I must admit, it makes me feel a little creepy, too.  

 

Angus

 

Look back to where you quoted Alpo, you put your remarks in red inside the quote .

[Blackwater 53393]

You misread the parts about sodium pentathol! It is UNRELIABLE taken orally!

 

Enough of it WILL kill you and it works well with other lethal drugs when injected.

 

Henbane is a neurotoxin closely related to Nightshade. Derived from a plant/flower.

[Alpo]

Curare, if I remember correctly, works on the diaphragm. It's used medically - or it was I don't know if it still is - to knock you out for surgery.

 

When the South America natives would put it on their blowgun darts and shoot a monkey, his diaphragm would quit working and he would suffocate and fall out of the tree.

[Black Angus McPherson]

On 10/1/2025 at 4:33 PM, Eyesa Horg said:

Look back to where you quoted Alpo, you put your remarks in red inside the quote .

yeah, I posted some replies to some other responses that I didn't see, then I guess I got a little excited when I went to add my replies that disappeared.  

[Sedalia Dave]

The fastest action poisons/venoms tend to be from animals. Even those take 5 to 30 minutes to kill.

 

Black Mamba, Inland Taipan, Some species of Cone Snail, Golden Poison Frog, Australian Box Jellyfish, Eastern Brown Snake are just a few that are fatal in 5 to 15 minutes.

[Pb Mark]

Interesting topic.  Got me thinking.

 

The fastest known poison applied in the ear might be lead.  48 grains of it moving at 4,300 feet per second.  It's called 220 Swift.  Most drug dealers probably have never heard of it.

[John Kloehr]

6 minutes ago, Pb Mark said:

... 4,300 feet per second  ... Most drug dealers probably have never heard of it.

At that velocity, they would not even hear it coming. Rapid onset lead poisoning.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

In 2017, North Korean "Great Leader" Kim Jun Un had his brother killed using VX nerve agent.  They got a couple of pretty girls to put it on their hands and go wipe it on Kim Jong Nam's face.  He realized what had happened and was rushed to the local hospital. Within 20 minutes he was dead.  The girls survived because they went to the bathroom immediately afterwards and washed their hands.  

[Texas Jack Black]

 I just use LEAD