What does it Matter?

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Fox News headline:

 

“Rifle behind Charlie Kirk’s killing may be untraceable relic from WWI“

 

Ummm…they have the rifle. The shooter said it belonged to his grandfather. Family heirloom. How far back do they need to go???

[J-BAR #18287]

Fodder for those who want to eliminate firearms as family heirlooms, unfortunately.

[Subdeacon Joe]

You don't understand!!!!!

 

OMYGAWD!!! IT'S AN UNTRACEABLE HIGH POWERED GHOST GUN!  THE MOSTEST DANGEROUS HIGH-CAPACITY RAPIDFIRE 48,000 ROUNDS PER SECOND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION EVER DEVISED!!!!

[J-BAR #18287]

Geez, SJ... someone's gonna quote that and use you as a knowledgeable source!

[Pat Riot]

9 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Geez, SJ... someone's gonna quote that and use you as a knowledgeable source!

But he ain’t no reliable witness…He’s Crazy, Man!

[watab kid]

58 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

You don't understand!!!!!

 

OMYGAWD!!! IT'S AN UNTRACEABLE HIGH POWERED GHOST GUN!  THE MOSTEST DANGEROUS HIGH-CAPACITY RAPIDFIRE 48,000 ROUNDS PER SECOND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION EVER DEVISED!!!!

they are somewhat irritated that its not an evil black riffle AR type so they are looking to demonize another that did nothing at all except what the "EVIL PERSON" holding it directed , time to get rea; about gun violence - its not the guns - its the EVIL PEOPLE that pick them up 

Edited September 22, 2025 by watab kid

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

All that hysteria makes you sound like one of our left wing Canadian politicians.

Or a soccer mom from Toronto. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

Geez, SJ... someone's gonna quote that and use you as a knowledgeable source!

More the fool they!

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot said:

But he ain’t no reliable witness…He’s Crazy, Man!

 

I deny it!  

 

I'm.....

 

Peculiar. 

[J.D. Daily]

The rifle could have been his great grandpa's rifle.  A pre 1939 production mil-surp Mauser 98K receiver & bolt makes a great base to build a custom rifle especially when barreled in a caliber that has the same rim diameter (-0.003") and only (-0.06") shorter OAL.   

[El Chapo]

An ATF "trace" is a term of art among the criminal justice world as to how it works.  The ATF starts with the serial number and the manufacturer, works their way to the distributor, then the retailer, and sometimes even has a field agent go to the FFL that sold the firearm to look for the original 4473.  A gun that is "untraceable" could be because there was a private transaction somewhere, which could have been totally lawful and decades ago, that ends the trace.  The media hears this and sensationalizes it, but it's not uncommon at all.  There's probably several "untraceable" guns in my safe and there's nothing illegal or nefarious about it, they were simply acquired in such a way that the paper trail stops somewhere, it may even be long before I owned it.  I'm sure it's even more common with antique guns than modern ones, but not uncommon either way.

 

As to why they would do a trace, every trail has to be followed and investigated in a serious criminal investigation like this where the state is going to possibly seek the death penalty.  Americans are skeptical of government.  That's why the Bill of Rights has included the right to a jury trial since 1791, because this country was literally founded by angry colonists who shot at the King's soldiers until we had liberty.  Juries always think that the judge/process is hiding information from them.  The ability to answer their questions makes convictions more likely.  The inability to answer their questions makes the government's witnesses look incompetent and lowers the chance that the government can meet its burden. 

 

That said, it'd be routine to trace the gun in virtually every murder case, especially if there are no eyewitnesses and no confession.  The government gets one shot at satisfying the burden.  They'd be fools to leave any stone unturned in a high profile case like this.  All the publicity potentially makes it worse.  While nobody wants to be the juror who let Casey Anthony go, even fewer want to be responsible for wrongfully convicting someone just because the media and public opinion hanged them already.  Just look at the serious evidence blunder that happened in the Alec Baldwin case if you want to see what Prosecutor Amateur Hour looks like.

Edited September 22, 2025 by El Chapo

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

8 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

I deny it!  

 

I'm.....

 

Peculiar. 

"Unique" fits, too.  

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

11 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Fox News headline:

 

“Rifle behind Charlie Kirk’s killing may be untraceable relic from WWI“

 

Ummm…they have the rifle. The shooter said it belonged to his grandfather. Family heirloom. How far back do they need to go???

One more example of some idiotic "journalist" trying to look like he (or she) is some sort of knowledgeable expert on something.

[Chantry]

13 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Fox News headline:

 

“Rifle behind Charlie Kirk’s killing may be untraceable relic from WWI“

 

Ummm…they have the rifle. The shooter said it belonged to his grandfather. Family heirloom. How far back do they need to go???

 

That presumes the shooter is telling the truth (although the shooter's DNA on the gun is pretty convincing) and is the only person involved in the planning and committing the murder.

 

On edit: My guess, when the investigation is complete, it will  be found that the shooter acted alone. Anything said online, before the shooting will be considered troubling, but won't reach a level where anyone will be charged as an accessory.

Edited September 22, 2025 by Chantry

[Eyesa Horg]

Still wondering what sort of DNA would be on the trigger, unless his finger was bleeding. They've always lead us to believe it takes a while for DNA testing as well. This happened pretty quick!

[Blackwater 53393]

Any single skin cell will have a complete set of DNA identifiers.  If the equipment good enough and the technicians are competent, a collection of those skin cells will likely produce accurate results.  The cartridges and other parts of the gun will yield enough samples to do the job.

 

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

I'd guess that most of us have at least a few that are "untraceable", having been acquired by means other than purchasing from an FFL. Yawn. This is nothing more than another Lame Stream Media type adding his bit to the Left's overall gun ban ideology. Another case of "No here here". 

At any rate, a sporterized '98 Mauser hardly meets the standard they have to scream about. Bolt action, 5 shot internal magazine, even THEY couldn't call it an "assault rifle". We'll likely not hear much more of it.

As for DNA, when DNA tracing first came to public attention, around 2000 or so, mostly because of the TV show "CSI", while they got results as soon as the script called for it, it used to actually take a week or so. Now, I don't have anything to do with forensics, but I'd venture that the science has advanced in the last 25 years so that it doesn't take near that long anymore.

[El Chapo]

7 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Any single skin cell will have a complete set of DNA identifiers.  If the equipment good enough and the technicians are competent, a collection of those skin cells will likely produce accurate results.  The cartridges and other parts of the gun will yield enough samples to do the job.

I've been involved in over 2000 criminal cases, the majority of them felony, and I don't recall even a single one where touch DNA was found on ammunition.  I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's not common and shouldn't be expected.

 

6 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I'd guess that most of us have at least a few that are "untraceable", having been acquired by means other than purchasing from an FFL. Yawn. This is nothing more than another Lame Stream Media type adding his bit to the Left's overall gun ban ideology. Another case of "No here here". 

At any rate, a sporterized '98 Mauser hardly meets the standard they have to scream about. Bolt action, 5 shot internal magazine, even THEY couldn't call it an "assault rifle". We'll likely not hear much more of it.

As for DNA, when DNA tracing first came to public attention, around 2000 or so, mostly because of the TV show "CSI", while they got results as soon as the script called for it, it used to actually take a week or so. Now, I don't have anything to do with forensics, but I'd venture that the science has advanced in the last 25 years so that it doesn't take near that long anymore.

 

The crime lab in New Mexico is 8+ months behind and under our present rules, a DNA examination will not be completed before the case has to go to trial or be dismissed in a case where the defendant is in jail.  They also have policies about how many items can be submitted for analysis and as of a few years ago, would not perform touch DNA analysis at all unless there was no other evidence leading to a suspect.  In other words, not only are you not correct (at least with regard to my state), it's far worse now than it even was 10 years ago, when cases could drag on longer in court and the lab would catch up to them.  Decades of underfunded courts and expanding population have made it far harder to put together a case than it was before when the average felony case would take 2 years to get to trial.   Our society always has money for more police officers on the street, but never seems to find any funding for everything that happens after that.  It's amazing our country isn't total anarchy.  Don't take my word for it, just spend an afternoon in your state's felony courtroom somewhere.  You will be astounded.

[Rip Snorter]

I think a difference here - the purported "engraving" would require a great deal more handling of cartridges and places for skin fragments.  Not questioning your experience or expertise, but I'd bet you haven't run across an engraved cartridge.  As to the rifle, he purportedly called out the source, and I suspect the owner will stand up and identify it.

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

10 minutes ago, El Chapo said:

The crime lab in New Mexico is 8+ months behind and under our present rules, They also would not perform touch DNA analysis at all unless there was no other evidence leading to a suspect.  In other words, not only are you not correct (at least with regard to my state), it's far worse now than it even was 10 years ago, when cases could drag on longer in court and the lab would catch up to them.

Not disagreeing with you, (I'm just a truck driver and wouldn't know anyway). What I'm saying is just that performing the actual test is probably not that long. 

I would also think that in very specific cases, like a political assassination, they would fast track the tests, and perform every test imaginable.

[Blackwater 53393]

1 hour ago, El Chapo said:

I've been involved in over 2000 criminal cases, the majority of them felony, and I don't recall even a single one where touch DNA was found on ammunition.  I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's not common and shouldn't be expected.

 

 

The crime lab in New Mexico is 8+ months behind and under our present rules, a DNA examination will not be completed before the case has to go to trial or be dismissed in a case where the defendant is in jail.  They also have policies about how many items can be submitted for analysis and as of a few years ago, would not perform touch DNA analysis at all unless there was no other evidence leading to a suspect.  In other words, not only are you not correct (at least with regard to my state), it's far worse now than it even was 10 years ago, when cases could drag on longer in court and the lab would catch up to them.  Decades of underfunded courts and expanding population have made it far harder to put together a case than it was before when the average felony case would take 2 years to get to trial.   Our society always has money for more police officers on the street, but never seems to find any funding for everything that happens after that.  It's amazing our country isn't total anarchy.  Don't take my word for it, just spend an afternoon in your state's felony courtroom somewhere.  You will be astounded.

I spent parts of three summers in the criminal courtroom and judge’s chambers.  I sat through several high profile criminal trials, including a couple of capital murder cases.

 

I got very familiar with the goings on in court.  I often find myself laughing at what is presented on television and in the movies purported to be courtroom proceedings.

 

All of this was long before DNA and much of “forensic science” became the be all and end all of evidence!

 

But I have also spent time in the jury box during criminal proceedings and learned a little about what the new science is capable of.

 

With the gravity of this case and the history of courtroom gymnastics on televised trials, I would bet ya’ a whole betcha that the stops will be pulled out, the evidence will be fast tracked through the system and thoroughly documented, and, for good or ill, the prosecution will be triple careful to make every point and every jot and tittle will be edited for correctness.

 

 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I’m guessing the DNA results will just be part of a package of evidence that will be presented. 
 

It took three years to settle the Idaho murder case (and only because of a plea bargain) and the murder case of the health insurance CEO is barely out of the gate after what, a year? I expect this one could go on for a very long time. 

[watab kid]

bottom lin is it doesnt matter at all what rifle was used it was the individual deploying it that was 100% at fault the rifle had nothing to do with it at all , - thats all news spin meant to deflect and di=vide - it doesnt matter what he used it was the individual wielding the weapon to blame and thats where the legislation or any corrective action needs to be aimed - anyone that thinks different needs to be considered a problem here 

[Barry Sloe]

On 9/21/2025 at 6:37 PM, watab kid said:

about gun violence - its not the guns - its the EVIL PEOPLE that pick them up 

Then they would have to acknowledge that there was a mental health issue. 

 

BS

[El Chapo]

19 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Not disagreeing with you, (I'm just a truck driver and wouldn't know anyway). What I'm saying is just that performing the actual test is probably not that long. 

I would also think that in very specific cases, like a political assassination, they would fast track the tests, and perform every test imaginable.

 

If the feds are involved, the FBI's crime lab is the gold standard.  I've never been all that impressed with the Bureau as an institution (although it has some incredible people), their crime lab at least has a reputation for excellence.

 

17 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

I spent parts of three summers in the criminal courtroom and judge’s chambers.  I sat through several high profile criminal trials, including a couple of capital murder cases.

 

I got very familiar with the goings on in court.  I often find myself laughing at what is presented on television and in the movies purported to be courtroom proceedings.

 

All of this was long before DNA and much of “forensic science” became the be all and end all of evidence!

 

But I have also spent time in the jury box during criminal proceedings and learned a little about what the new science is capable of.

 

With the gravity of this case and the history of courtroom gymnastics on televised trials, I would bet ya’ a whole betcha that the stops will be pulled out, the evidence will be fast tracked through the system and thoroughly documented, and, for good or ill, the prosecution will be triple careful to make every point and every jot and tittle will be edited for correctness.

 

I have tried over 100 criminal cases to verdict--almost all of them felonies.

[watab kid]

On 9/23/2025 at 8:56 AM, Barry Sloe said:

Then they would have to acknowledge that there was a mental health issue. 

 

BS

thats true , they would , there is , 

[Dapper Dave]

They will scream "sniper rifle", to apply to all rifles that don't fit the "assault weapon" category. Then they segue this "old relic that can't be traced" into a movement for Universal Background Checks, because UBCs will not work without universal registration. That's the playbook they use here. 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

I've heard of conspiracists who opine that Kirk's assassination was a Netanyahu/Mossad hit job. An 'untraceable' rifle helps fuel their foaming.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

On 9/22/2025 at 12:45 PM, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

I deny it!  

 

I'm.....

 

Peculiar. 

 

 

 

 

Delightfully deranged different

 

 

🤐

[Dantankerous]

5 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

They will scream "sniper rifle", to apply to all rifles that don't fit the "assault weapon" category. Then they segue this "old relic that can't be traced" into a movement for Universal Background Checks, because UBCs will not work without universal registration. That's the playbook they use here. 

 

Would not surprise me in the least if that happens. All bolt action hunting rifles become sniper rifles just like anything semi automatic is "automatically" an assault rifle. 

 

Just wait until the media figure out what a 300 Win Mag is capable of compared to the tiny 5.56 that can destroy a deer or a brontosaurus completely. 

 

 

[Whitey James]

Air rifles wouldn't be safe if the grabbers got their way.

[sassnetguy50]

On 9/22/2025 at 12:55 AM, El Chapo said:

An ATF "trace" is a term of art among the criminal justice world as to how it works.  The ATF starts with the serial number and the manufacturer, works their way to the distributor, then the retailer, and sometimes even has a field agent go to the FFL that sold the firearm to look for the original 4473.  A gun that is "untraceable" could be because there was a private transaction somewhere, which could have been totally lawful and decades ago, that ends the trace.  The media hears this and sensationalizes it, but it's not uncommon at all.  There's probably several "untraceable" guns in my safe and there's nothing illegal or nefarious about it, they were simply acquired in such a way that the paper trail stops somewhere, it may even be long before I owned it.  I'm sure it's even more common with antique guns than modern ones, but not uncommon either way.

 

As to why they would do a trace, every trail has to be followed and investigated in a serious criminal investigation like this where the state is going to possibly seek the death penalty.  Americans are skeptical of government.  That's why the Bill of Rights has included the right to a jury trial since 1791, because this country was literally founded by angry colonists who shot at the King's soldiers until we had liberty.  Juries always think that the judge/process is hiding information from them.  The ability to answer their questions makes convictions more likely.  The inability to answer their questions makes the government's witnesses look incompetent and lowers the chance that the government can meet its burden. 

 

That said, it'd be routine to trace the gun in virtually every murder case, especially if there are no eyewitnesses and no confession.  The government gets one shot at satisfying the burden.  They'd be fools to leave any stone unturned in a high profile case like this.  All the publicity potentially makes it worse.  While nobody wants to be the juror who let Casey Anthony go, even fewer want to be responsible for wrongfully convicting someone just because the media and public opinion hanged them already.  Just look at the serious evidence blunder that happened in the Alec Baldwin case if you want to see what Prosecutor Amateur Hour looks like.

The ATF records branch can run a records search.  There was a news tour and interview with the ATF about it.  How they work the electronically searchable restriction by cataloging.  A trace may have a dead end and a records search might find where it was later transferred on paper again.

Edited October 4, 2025 by sassnetguy50

[Dapper Dave]

Always important to remember that transfers before 1968 won't be there. Also, many Mausers were "bring backs" in WWI and WWII, so there is a statistical chance that the rifle never saw a gun shop, ever. And this is what they hate, no control. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

On 9/21/2025 at 6:37 PM, watab kid said:

they are somewhat irritated that its not an evil black riffle AR type so they are looking to demonize another that did nothing at all except what the "EVIL PERSON" holding it directed , time to get rea; about gun violence - its not the guns - its the EVIL PEOPLE that pick them up 

You'll NEVER sell that to the lefties and their stupid zombie drones.

[Blackwater 53393]

12 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

You'll NEVER sell that to the lefties and their stupid zombie drones.

They project their own lack of self control onto everyone else and then assume that they are the ones to control everyone else!

 

If someone isn’t disarmed, these liberals can’t exercise their perceived superiority and self proclaimed authority on the “unwashed masses”!!