45 Cowboy Special Loads

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1 hour ago, Leroy Luck said:

The way a crimp die works in most cases, the shell holder won’t touch the die. 

 

THIS ^^^^^

 

As long as you are getting the necessary crimp you desire,  that's all that matters.

 

..........Widder

 

[Choctaw Jack]

I use Dilllon dies in .45 Colt for the sizing, belling/charging and seating operations for C45S, and a Lee Factory Crimp Die for crimping.

This combo produces a great round from my Dillon 550.

As stated earlier, a firm roll crimp works best.

Choctaw Jack

[IndianCent]

15 hours ago, Choctaw Jack said:

I use Dilllon dies in .45 Colt for the sizing, belling/charging and seating operations for C45S, and a Lee Factory Crimp Die for crimping.

This combo produces a great round from my Dillon 550.

As stated earlier, a firm roll crimp works best.

Choctaw Jack

I use Hornady dies for everything other than the crimp, that's Redding die.  I loaded up 12 rounds with 3.4 grains of TiteGroup and will see what the Chrono and the target says. Thanks  

[Choctaw Jack]

4 grains of Clay Dot under a 160 grain powder coated RNFP gives me an average velocity of about 635 fps, out of my 5 1/2 inch open tops.

Plenty of punch for KDs.

[Three Foot Johnson]

A few decades ago, RCBS .45 acp dies used a roll crimp die. Taper crimp dies weren't all that common I guess, so the crimp protocol was to run the case in just far enough to remove the bell.  

[IndianCent]

That seems like a good idea, my Redding die goes from taper to roll crimp. I am thinking of limiting the crimp just to remove the bell. I use new brass and still resize it before I bell. I don't think I need to run the crimp all the way down in addition to the resize.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

IndianCent,

Here is some 'crimping' info that can be useful with ALL loads.

 

You want your crimp to be sufficient enough to keep bullets from moving forward in a REVOLVER and pushing back down 

in PISTOLS.

 

For REVOLVERS, Set your crimp to where the bullet DOES NOT move more than about .006 outward under recoil

movements.   Testing is easy.

Put 6 rounds in your revolver.   Mark your 6th round, measure its OAL, because you don't want to fire it.

Then fire the other 5 rounds.   Pull out your UNFIRED 6th round and measure the OAL again.

No bullet movement is hard to achieve but I've discovered that .006 is an acceptable MAXIMUM

in revolvers and in move of our handholds, will keep the bullet from moving out further than

the front of the cylinder.

 

Hopefully, your OAL will be minimal and NO MORE than about .006 longer than its original measurement.

 

I shoot some hot 460 & 500 Mag reloads that my roll crimps prevent bullet movement within .004 OAL

for 8 rounds of fire (the 460 and 500 only hold 5 rounds each so I can only do 4 and 8 round testing).

 

Naturally, lighter loads can use milder crimps to achieve sufficient crimps.

And... heavier loads have to have a heavier crimp to achieve sufficient crimps.

 

But his testing processs will help.   You'll get more consistent shot velocities and accuracy.

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder

 

Edited September 22 by Widder, SASS #59054

[IndianCent]

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

IndianCent,

Here is some 'crimping' info that can be useful with ALL loads.

 

You want your crimp to be sufficient enough to keep bullets from moving forward in a REVOLVER and pushing back down 

in PISTOLS.

 

For REVOLVERS, Set your crimp to where the bullet DOES NOT move more than about .006 outward under recoil

movements.   Testing is easy.

Put 6 rounds in your revolver.   Mark your 6th round, measure its OAL, because you don't want to fire it.

Then fire the other 5 rounds.   Pull out your UNFIRED 6th round and measure the OAL again.

No bullet movement is hard to achieve but I've discovered that .006 is an acceptable MAXIMUM

in revolvers and in move of our handholds, will keep the bullet from moving out further than

the front of the cylinder.

 

Hopefully, your OAL will be minimal and NO MORE than about .006 longer than its original measurement.

 

I shoot some hot 460 & 500 Mag reloads that my roll crimps prevent bullet movement within .004 OAL

for 8 rounds of fire (the 460 and 500 only hold 5 rounds each so I can only do 4 and 8 round testing).

 

Naturally, lighter loads can use milder crimps to achieve sufficient crimps.

And... heavier loads have to have a heavier crimp to achieve sufficient crimps.

 

But his testing processs will help.   You'll get more consistent shot velocities and accuracy.

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder

 

Thank you so much! What a simple and accurate way to measure bullet movement under recoil. I will test that out when I shoot my next batch. I think my crimp will be fine, I just want to make sure it stays consistent throughout each session, so my chrono compares apples to apples.

I used 3.4 gr of TiteGroup (free inside the cartridge) and wound up with 400 fps, I now upped it to 3.7 with cornmeal between the powder and the bullet. I hope to get 600-700 fps eventually. 

[Cholla]

Skip the cornmeal. You don't need it with C45S cases.

[IndianCent]

3 minutes ago, Cholla said:

Skip the cornmeal. You don't need it with C45S cases.

I thought so too, but I had something grainy coming out of the fired shells...unburned powder? The color does not match. Corn Cob media?

What could that be? New brass, primer, 3.4 gr of TiteGroup and the bullet, that's all that was there before I fired it. 

The picture shows the grainy material I collected inside the blue lid and the TiteGroup powder above as it sits in the RCBS charge master.

i am leaving now and I will shoot another 10 rounds with 3.7 gr TiteGroup and cornmeal to keep the powder concentrated above the primer.

[Rip Snorter]

Looks like corncob media - seen it before.

[Eyesa Horg]

Looks like corn cob to me too. Is that from numerous fired rounds or just one? 

[Griff]

18 hours ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

A few decades ago, RCBS .45 acp dies used a roll crimp die. Taper crimp dies weren't all that common I guess, so the crimp protocol was to run the case in just far enough to remove the bell.  

I've been loading 45Auto with same RCBS die set I bought in 1974, sizer/decapper, expander, seater/crimp (taper), until I bought a Dillon 550B in 1987 when I added a carbide sizer, then in the mid 2,000s when I bought my first "Cowboy45Special" brass from Adirondak Jack, I added a 45Auto roll crimp die to a spare toolhead along with a 45Colt carbide sizer.  And have used those ever since.

 

(Why does everyone seem set on butcherin' the name the creator gave the cartridge)?  Except for its numerical listing Starline uses the proper name:  "The Cowboy .45 Special is a case that is optimized for use with light loads in .45 Colt caliber revolvers for Cowboy Action Shooting. Light loads with excessive airspace are a recipe for case splits and erratic function. By using the Cowboy .45 Special case, with its .45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length, the problem no longer exists. While many claim that .45 Auto load data can be used in this caliber, it is important to realize the limitations of the firearm it is chambered in and only use loads that fall within the pressure range of that firearm. Generally these can be loaded using .45 Colt dies and a modified (shortened) crimp die, or .45 Auto Rim roll crimp die."

[IndianCent]

1 hour ago, Rip Snorter said:

Looks like corncob media - seen it before.

Agree, but it is not. I got the same result again today (although with less grainy residue). I am using all NEW brass, primer, bullet and powder. Shooting that can not produce corn cob. I am mystified......help me!

[Boggus Deal #64218]

8 minutes ago, IndianCent said:

Agree, but it is not. I got the same result again today (although with less grainy residue). I am using all NEW brass, primer, bullet and powder. Shooting that can not produce corn cob. I am mystified......help me!

It looks like unburned powder that the coating was burned off of. Trying up the charge a few tenths. Or more crimp.

Edited September 22 by Boggus Deal #64218
Dang autocorrect

[IndianCent]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Looks like corn cob to me too. Is that from numerous fired rounds or just one? 

Agree, but it is not. I got the same result again today (although with less grainy residue). I am using all NEW brass, primer, bullet and powder. Shooting that can not produce corn cob. It is created by a small amount from either each of the 10 rounds or just by a few rounds. I did not see it until all rounds were fired and had unloaded most of the cylinder.

I got less today, as I used 4.7 grain of TiteGroup (instead of 4.3) and corn meal to keep the powder concentrated above the primer. It has to be unburned powder, because there is nothing else inside the shell. It was less today because the cornmeal kept the powder in one place and forced more of it to burn. Yesterday I did not use corn meal. 

[IndianCent]

1 minute ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

It looks like I burned powder that the coating was burned off of. Trying up the charge a few tenths. Or more crimp.

I increased the charge from 3.4 gr to 3.7 and added cornmeal. I got a lot less of this residue. The average speed went from 430 to 650'isch. I am looking for 650 fps average with low ES and SD. So far I only arrived at the average fps level. I will list the ES/SD in a little bit, it is terrible. On the good news side, I hit the target pretty well regardless of lousy SD/ES. 😵‍💫

[Rip Snorter]

Assuming new powder you bought sealed?  Factory new brass.  Got me stumped.  You would see grains like that in the powder, from the photo they are absent.  Be easy to visually inspect the inside of the brass before loading, no other suggestion.  You should not need the cornmeal in the smaller case, the primer ignition should be adequate to literally contact all of the charge.  I think Cholla hit the nail on the head.

[Eyesa Horg]

Probably not much help, but checking my book from back in '14; I loaded 45 Colt with 5.0gr.  of Tightgroup under a 200gr. bullet. My only notes indicated it had a snappy recoil and was a little dirty. Didn't note if it was in my Rugers too or just the Marlin for the dirty issue. Didn't shoot more than 300 before I found Clays and then started using the C45S brass for pistols with a 160gr. bullet.

Don't recall unburnt powder looking like your picture.

Edited September 22 by Eyesa Horg
Added text

[Eyesa Horg]

8 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

  I think Cholla hit the nail on the head.

+1 on the filler

[IndianCent]

6 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Assuming new powder you bought sealed?  Factory new brass.  Got me stumped.  You would see grains like that in the powder, from the photo they are absent.  Be easy to visually inspect the inside of the brass before loading, no other suggestion.  You should not need the cornmeal in the smaller case, the primer ignition should be adequate to literally contact all of the charge.  I think Cholla hit the nail on the head.

I agree, but I got a lot more grainy residue yesterday with the 3.4 grain of TiteGroup sitting free in the case than I did today with the 3.7 grain plus cornmeal. That seems to indicate that more powder (not all) burned today during the firing process compared to yesterday. I would prefer not use corn meal, as it is yet another step in the process.

All components are brand new, the powder was bought at Cabela's three weeks ago, the bottle was sealed. Maybe I just discovered an expensive way to produce corn cob. 😉

[Eyesa Horg]

Up it a tenth or two and see if you get better yet performance. You are probably still too light to get a clean burn.

[Eyesa Horg]

23 minutes ago, IndianCent said:

Agree, but it is not. I got the same result again today (although with less grainy residue). I am using all NEW brass, primer, bullet and powder. Shooting that can not produce corn cob. It is created by a small amount from either each of the 10 rounds or just by a few rounds. I did not see it until all rounds were fired and had unloaded most of the cylinder.

I got less today, as I used 4.7 grain of TiteGroup (instead of 4.3) and corn meal to keep the powder concentrated above the primer. It has to be unburned powder, because there is nothing else inside the shell. It was less today because the cornmeal kept the powder in one place and forced more of it to burn. Yesterday I did not use corn meal. 

How did the 4.7 work? That seems hot to me.

[IndianCent]

Here are my velocity results with TiteGroup so far:

 

3.4 grain with powder free in case (see session 66)

3.7 grain powder plus cornmeal (see session 68)

 

My best results with TiteGroup in 32 WCF are 10.8 fps SD and 42.1 fps ES ( a far cry from what I am getting now). 

This just a snap shot along the way, maybe I will try my left over 26 year old Clays powder next. 

 

Edited September 22 by IndianCent

[IndianCent]

18 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

How did the 4.7 work? That seems hot to me.

I posted the results below, not too hot but made the SD and DS worse.

[Griff]

2 hours ago, IndianCent said:

I thought so too, but I had something grainy coming out of the fired shells...unburned powder? The color does not match. Corn Cob media?

What could that be? New brass, primer, 3.4 gr of TiteGroup and the bullet, that's all that was there before I fired it. 

The picture shows the grainy material I collected inside the blue lid and the TiteGroup powder above as it sits in the RCBS charge master.

i am leaving now and I will shoot another 10 rounds with 3.7 gr TiteGroup and cornmeal to keep the powder concentrated above the primer.

Incompletely burnt powder.  Need firmer crimp for good ignition.  Explains the low velocity also.  I'm getting 625fps with 3.4grains of TiteGroup & 200 grain RFN.  614 fps w/ the 160 grain version and a FIRM rollcrimp in the crimp groove from my 4-¾" Colt SAAs.

Edited September 22 by Griff

[IndianCent]

16 minutes ago, Griff said:

Incompletely burnt powder.  Need firmer crimp for good ignition.  Explains the low velocity also.  I'm getting 625fps with 3.4grains of TiteGroup & 200 grain RFN.  614 fps w/ the 160 grain version and a FIRM rollcrimp in the crimp groove from my 4-¾" Colt SAAs.

I will see what I can do with the Redding Crimp die. It is taper first and then becomes a roll crimp. My 3.4 gr load had taper and roll crimp applied. My 4.7 gr load only the taper to take out the bell. I will try 3.7 grain free with a stronger crimp and see what the results are. Thanks

[Griff]

5 minutes ago, IndianCent said:

I will see what I can do with the Redding Crimp die. It is taper first and then becomes a roll crimp. My 3.4 gr load had taper and roll crimp applied. My 4.7 gr load only the taper to take out the bell. I will try 3.7 grain free with a stronger crimp and see what the results are. Thanks

I do get a few flakes of the residue in the 160grain load, but not w/the 200 grain load.  The 160 just leaves easier.  Probably gets to the cylinder gap quicker and loses a bit of more of its oooomph, dropping the velocity vs the 200 grain pill.  (Pure speculation on my part... but seems plausible).    Oh, and my WB loads are now made with Clays.  Had to look at my 45Auto tub of ammo.  

[IndianCent]

35 minutes ago, Griff said:

I do get a few flakes of the residue in the 160grain load, but not w/the 200 grain load.  The 160 just leaves easier.  Probably gets to the cylinder gap quicker and loses a bit of more of its oooomph, dropping the velocity vs the 200 grain pill.  (Pure speculation on my part... but seems plausible).    Oh, and my WB loads are now made with Clays.  Had to look at my 45Auto tub of ammo.  

Do they still makes Clays? I can't see it in stock. I have some leftover.

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, IndianCent said:

Do they still makes Clays? I can't see it in stock. I have some leftover.

I don't know... I still have almost 2  8 lb jugs.  It goes a long ways!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I call that residue...'birdseed'.    Its the powder that didn't combust completely.

I've had the same problem years back until I switched to Magnum Primers.

 

Magnum primers have a longer burn (flash) time and can probably solve your issue.

 

Lots of good advice posted above.

 

..........Widder

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

11 minutes ago, IndianCent said:

Do they still makes Clays?

Production is suspended.  Now that our direct supplying of energetics and explosives to the Ukrainian war has tapered off, we may see Clays marketed once again in the future.   Don't hold your breath until May becomes Will, though.  good luck, GJ

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Wait…what? The shooter is using a smokeless powder (TiteGroup) with a filler?

“…I will shoot another 10 rounds with 3.7 gr TiteGroup and cornmeal to keep the powder concentrated above the primer.”

 

That’s a HUGE no-no. Has something changed in the world of smokeless reloading I’m unaware of?

Old thread, but still relevant. See especially Driftwood Johnson’s post. 
 

 

Edited September 23 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[watab kid]

this thread has been very helpful for a lot of reasons , but theexplanations of the crimp die was what helped me most 

[Nickle]

On 9/14/2025 at 3:02 PM, IndianCent said:

Hi All,

I just started loading 45 LC again (my most recent loads are 24+ yrs old). I like the idea of the shortened 45 and ordered a supply from Starline. I plan to load the 160 grain bullet and will use TiteGroup to start with. Can someone recommend a good roll crimp die that will work well with this cartridge?

As far as powder is concerned, I was searching for 45 auto rim load data without success. What powder and charge weight is a good starting point?

BTW: I have half of a pound of Clays left that I can use up for now.

I've played around with 45cs. I've tried different smokeless loads with both roll and  tapered crimp.  Crimp didn't make a accuracy difference for me. But I wasn't using much of a Crimp because I didn't want to swage the bullet with a heavy tapered Crimp. 

I definitely get better accuracy with 45 colt than with cowboy special. 

With smokeless I also got lead in the chamber with cs.