USPFA vs USFA

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Now, I wonder what this could be...


Looks like some kind of a box.    I wonder what's inside of it.

Well, call me surprised!   Here's something I never expected to find at a gun store in Massachusetts!


So, now, you must be wondering about the title of this post.  Well, as some of you may remember, a few weeks ago, I found an Uberti/USPFA revolver at a (different) local gun store.   Also something I never expected to find.  

To refresh the memory, here is the USPFA pistol.


And for comparison, here is the USFA pistol.


Neither pistol is in pristine condition, with the USPFA being slightly worse for ware, but they both still work just fine.   But now, how about some direct comparison of the differences between these two revolvers?  Here they are side by side.

Here's a shot of the first, and most obvious difference at a glance.  (Aside from what the grips are made of.)

The USPFA has a crescent ejector, and the USFA has a full moon one.   That may just be that they are different models. 

But now, let's look at some of the more significant differences.
Tops of the barrels.

 

Bottoms of the barrels.


Well, the USPFA one is clearly labeled Uberti, but the USFA is not.

The backs of the hammers are also different.


The USFPA has that thing in the hammer that the USFA, like real Colt, does not.

 

Here they are with hammers cocked, so you can see the thing and the lack thereof.

Also, the firing pin is different.

And finally, the hole in the frame of the USPFA for the thing, and its lack on the USFA one.

So, I guess this demonstrates how the early USPFA pistols were in fact made from Uberti parts, and the later USFA's were not.

But what about quality?

Well, when I look at the fit and finish, the USFA does seem to be better.   It compares very favorably to a contemporary 3rd Generation Colt I have.  I can see why the USFA had such a good reputation.   And the action, the action is fantastic.  It just feels right, again comparable to the Colts (1st, 2nd and 3rd) in my collection very favorably, and in a way that none of my Uberti pistols do.  That being said, the USPFA Uberti does seem to be a little better than the run of the mill Uberties I own.

$1400 and change, by the way.  (Include tax, CC fee)  My eyes widened when I found it online.   I immediately called the store and said I'd be down to look at it, and probably buy it.

To all my fellow pards in New England, the store is  Bay State Surplus Firearms in Plymouth, Mass.   A small shop with a good mix of new and used firearms, and more than a few Cowboy type guns.  Prices were reasonable too.  Check it out.

https://www.baystatesurplus.com/

Found the website at random when I was trying to look up some of the details of the laws in Massachusetts about C&R guns.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Eyesa, try again!   You responded before I could fix the mistake! 

[Eyesa Horg]

Nice finds H.K. 

Congrats again on getting your Colt repaired. Looks excellent. 👍

[Cholla]

If you visit the coltforum.com you will find extensive threads on the evolution of the USFA revolvers including the transition from Uberti to all US parts. 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

USFA USA Made revolvers are beautiful built guns .

But to pay more money for a Colt clone then you can buy a Colt for will never make sense to me .

No matter what it will never say Colt on the barrel. 

And that is just money in the bank IMHO .

They both are beautiful revolvers and I would be proud to own either one .

Congratulations on your find .

Rooster. 

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

The USPFA pistol is an early Uberti import that had the firing pin safety, which I believe was necessary for imports.  The USFA  pistol was made/assembled here and the safety wasn't necessary.  Is the USFA a China Camp-serial number begins with CC?  Looks just like mine.  Both look good.  Nice finds.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Yes, the USFA serial number starts with CC.   CC2xx

Is there a significance to that?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

16 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

USFA USA Made revolvers are beautiful built guns .

But to pay more money for a Colt clone then you can buy a Colt for will never make sense to me .

No matter what it will never say Colt on the barrel. 

And that is just money in the bank IMHO .

They both are beautiful revolvers and I would be proud to own either one .

Congratulations on your find .

Rooster. 

 

Rooster, you are correct that they will never be a Colt.   I can remember when USFA was still around how lotsa people chimed in about how it was silly to buy a copy of the Colt when a real Colt cost the same price, no matter how well made the copy was.   It'll never hold its value was a common refrain.

Well, for whatever reason, reality didn't work out that way.   USFA pistols can now sell for MORE than a contemporary Colt.   We may agree that is this strange, but it is how things have developed.   I think it's an excellent example of supply and demand.   USFA is gone, and there ain't never gonna be no more, so the supply is fixed.  But demand is still high.  It is inevitable that their prices inflate.

To be honest, given what I have seen these pistols actually selling for, I think I got a very good deal on both of them.   And of course, when I become a famous person, their value will only go way up more. 

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

2 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Yes, the USFA serial number starts with CC.   CC2xx

Is there a significance to that?

They only made around 350-400 or so, as I recall.  The initials stand for China Camp (aka: Dennis Ming) an early SASS top gun who lent his name to that series of pistols.  There was a target shot by each pistol included in the box.  I have a pair that came in 45 Colt with 7 1/2" barrels but I had them converted to 44-40 caliber and 5 1/2" barrels.  I still have all the parts and maybe one day I'll have the original ones put back.  BTW, they are all made to Uberti specs.  Bob Munden did action jobs on them around 25 years ago and they are no different in function now than they  were then.  Still use them as main match guns when not using Colts.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

The China Camp pistols are in the white.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I guess this is as good a time as any to mention that the box my pistol came in is not the original.   For one thing the box clearly says the pistol inside is a 7-1/2" barrel.   Mine is  5-1/2.  

But all of this has led me to be more curious about the specifics of my pistol.  

Oh how I wish USFA, if it had to die, had sent its records to Cody, or SOMEONE who could use them to share information with us.   Alas, it seems it is not to be. 

[levi littleton]

I was asked to comment.

 

I knew Bob Munden and USFA.  The USFA smiths (most work for Standard now) simply needed no help.  Although Jim Finch aka "Longhunter", a SASS World Champion, firearms instructor and gunsmith did a lot  to support and help USFA along.

 

This photo clearly shows your CC gun was fully built on Uberti parts, and assembled (in the white) in the USA.  Firing pin is tapered and not a full cone like an early 1st Gen Colt.  Hammer checkering is cast typically.  Firing pin alone tells me it is an Italian parts guns.  Checkering just affirms it.   We, my wife's guns, own CC 243 and CC 244 and are the same parts guns as your 45 with cast checkering on the hammer.   

 

I started this thread 10 years ago.  Worth a read on CC guns.

Let's talk China Camp Guns?

 

More..

Stainless Steel USFA? | Colt Forum

 

USFA 45 Colt First Impressions | Colt Forum

 

 

There is a bunch of other nonsense, frames, cylinder flutes and more, that makes it a Uberti parts gun but the hammer and  big blade and tapered front sight is one of the easiest to spot.  

 

 

 

Quality of the guns?  As noted above USFA did spend some extra time on the CC guns getting them right.  Yes it is believed that less than 400 were made.  And the vast majority of those finished in the white.   Not all were targeted.  But most 45s were.   They are excellent guns.  IMO some of the best guns that USFA built.   Hamilton Bown raved about how good they were and built on them.  The CC guns don't command the prices of the later USFA guns made with USA made parts but you certainly have a fine shooter that should actually print point of aim.   Our pair of 32-20s shoot exceptionally well and at POA.  

 

25 yards off a bench.

[Pee Wee #15785]

I hadd a set of .44-40's blue 7 1/2" barrels till my son started shoting SASS with me.  When I bought then, Colt 3rd gen SAA, were not worth bringing home.  When my son took over the USFA's, Colt had got their act together and I bought a pair off of "Sixgun Shorty", Fronter Six Shooters nickeled, the nickel was a very big mistake.  The Colts are double cylinders, .44-40 and .44 Sp. wish I had done the USFA's the same.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

You can take the girl out of the trailer park. 

But you can never take the Trailer Park out of the girl.

 

The Colt has a soul that a clone can never duplicate. 

 

You Have Some Beautiful Built Clones .

And I Would Be Pround to Own Them  Myself. 

No matter what a 100 years from now .

It still will never be a Colt.

Just Sayin. 

Rooster 

 

[Rip Snorter]

Then and now.  Colt hasn't been what it was back in time for a couple of decades.  The legend remains.  We'll see what happens moving forward under current ownership.  My older Colts are not replaceable other than with other vintage guns and antiques.

[levi littleton]

Guess that is how we ended up where we are today.

Really helps to know what needs shoveling 😉 

100 years from now folks will be asking, "Why didn't those Italians make more six guns?"

 

I own one of my great Grandfather's SAA Colts.  He was born in 1860 and died a few years before I was born. 

I also own my Grandfather's only SAA,  which is actually a Bisley.   So, when folks start pontificating on "clones", a good many of the folks that came before the Internet might figure a 1st Gen Colt is the only "real" Colt SAA.  Chew on that for a while. 

 

 

Anyone with any horse sense, that can actually shoot,  also knows that the USA made USFA guns rivalled any generation of Colt SAA and generally shot a whole lot better than most. Fact not fiction.

 

I still own a bunch of Colts, 1st through 3rds.  And a pile of NIB USFA, plus the USFA, and Italian clones we shoot.  

 

Aint no history in a 2nd Gen Colt.  Never was.  None in any new gun unless you are adding to it.   

 

3rd Gen 44 sp. here.    I won that year only because I was the only one to actually hit all the targets, using my heavy bullet .44 hunting ammo that just happened to be in the truck.  That surely wasn't intentional.

 

   

I'd actually rather shoot this 1892, 45 Colt.   Simply because it still shoots very well and I know some of the history of this one.

 

 

The pair of 32-20 China Camps I showed have shoot better than dang near any handgun I have shot.  I bought them for the cartridge and the ivory, not for the name on the gun.

 

I try not to be clueless when it comes to guns.  I buy them to put lead on target first and foremost.  These days a Pietta or Uberti will likely outshoot most Colts.   I say that knowing both Italian gun brands will.   Three Uberti's here.

   

 

But I like a Colt as much as anyone.  Nothing wrong with a Colt, if they will shoot, and the actual $ value is there.  The $ decision is on you.   I made up my mind a long time ago.

 

My new pair I had built for our family to pass on.  3rd Gen BP Colts.   As far as guns go, and hitting what you aim at with them......they are barely passable.

 

Yes, I shoot them too.

 

And the best shooting SAA I have ever used?  Which made me think it deserves to be engraved.  The base gun is a USA made USFA Rodeo, engraved by Phil Quigley, one piece ivory by Paul Persinger.

[Rip Snorter]

4 minutes ago, levi littleton said:

Guess that is how we ended up where we are today.

Really helps to know what needs shoveling 😉 

 

I own one of my great Grandfather's SAA Colts.  He was born in 1860 and died a few years before I was born. 

I also own my Grandfather's only SAA,  which is actually a Bisley.   So, when folks start pontificating on "clones", a good many of the folks that came before the Internet might figure a 1st Gen Colt is the only "real" Colt SAA.  Chew on that for a while. 

 

 

Anyone with any horse sense, that can actually shoot,  also knows that the USA made USFA guns rivalled any generation of Colt SAA and generally shot a whole lot better than most. Fact not fiction.

 

I still own a bunch of Colts, 1st through 3rds.  And a pile of NIB USFA, plus the USFA, and Italian clones we shoot.  

 

Aint no history in a 2nd Gen Colt.  Never was.  None in any new gun unless you are adding to it.   

 

3rd Gen 44 sp. here.    I won that year only because I was the only one to actually hit all the targets, using my heavy bullet .44 hunting ammo that just happened to be in the truck.  That surely wasn't intentional.

 

   

I'd actually rather shoot this 1892, 45 Colt.   Simply because it still shoots very well and I know some of the history of this one.

 

 

The pair of 32-20 China Camps I showed have shoot better than dang near any handgun I have shot.  I bought them for the cartridge and the ivory, not for the name on the gun.

 

I try not to be clueless when it comes to guns.  I buy them to put lead on target first and foremost.  These days a Pietta or Uberti will likely outshoot most Colts.   I say that knowing both Italian gun brands will.   Three Uberti's here.

   

 

But I like a Colt as much as anyone.  Nothing wrong with a Colt, if they will shoot, and the actual $ value is there.  The $ decision is on you.   I made up my mind a long time ago.

 

My new "family" pair of 3rd Gen BP Colts.

 

Yes, I shoot them too.

 

And the best shooting SAA I have ever used.  Which made me think it deserves to be engraved.  It is a USA made USFA Rodeo.

Great guns, you are fortunate historically and have made great modern choices.

[levi littleton]

Thank you Rip.

Yes, I am very I am fortunate having the guns I do have.   My parents didn't gift me the family heirlooms till I was well past 40. 

IIRC I was only a few years younger than that when I could actually afford my first SAA, a 3rd Gen.  Got a blue and cased 4 3/4", 44-40 from Harrison Carrol for $1800. out of Gunlist.  The rest didn't come easy, and I was closer to 60. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Levi, thanks for posting.   While I am a little bummed to learn than my USFA is an Uberti parts gun, (I really thought the lack of the safety thing and other obvious differences from the USPFA one indicated otherwise) it doesn't really bother me all that much.   It's still a nice gun, and it has some interesting history to it.   So that makes it worth knowing about.  Oh how I wish again there was a way to "document" these things.

But no matter.   In fact, learning that the gun is "in the white," has made me start to think about maybe having it engraved and perhaps nicely finished somehow.  Or not.  It's nice to know that there are options.

 

Thanks again for sharing your expert knowledge.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

It took me till I was in my mid 50's before I had my first Colt SAA 

I do have and shoot a Original Colt 1860 Army .

I love my Uberti Clones .

They are what I use for SASS .

They are tough guns and we run them harder then any SAA was ever intended too run .

I would never abuse my Colts the way I do my Uberti guns and they keep running. 

Im not saying anything bad about Uberti USFA or GW guns .

They are great clone guns .

But just like a Honda shadow. 

It looks like a Harley.

But it will never be a Harley .

I remember years ago .

I sold a Second Gen 45 Colt for enough money to buy ,

Two Uberti SAA Colt clones  a Uberti 66 Rifle & a Stoeger SxS 12g for my Son to be able to play Cowboy .

And I still have them & they still run great .

Rooster 

 

[levi littleton]

The China Camp guns are nice guns.  No doubt about it.  Having them in the white isn't a terrible thing.  Selling the guns as USFA did, in the white, as some sort of special “Silver Steel Competition” finish was IMO not misleading but criminal.

 

I like my USFA guns.  But, oh my, sadly they did come up with some obvious bs to sell guns.  I've had many a USFA  guns engraved since.  Typically Rodeos because the finish was the easiest to remove and the guns cheap at the time.   The China Camp guns are even a better candidate for engraving, although I've never had one done.   A China Camp finish shouldn't require any polish to get started on the engraving....so money saved. 

 

She had any choice of any finish she wanted for her 32-20s.    I bought them already engraved.  Not my choice, but she wanted carbona blued.  

 

before and after.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And a Rodeo from John Adams Sr. finished in antique (Watts) nickel.

 

[Zach Taylor,SASS#14359]

I have and still have a few Colts in 45 and 357, Bob Munden did action jobs on all of them around 30 or so years ago and and I have been shooting them at matches for a long time. I am by no means a top shooter, but all I can say is if your Colts don't hit anything compared to clones, possibly it's not the gun ,might be the shooter.Also as other people have said sell your Uberti vs your Colt and see where you get your money back.For the average person , money is the important factor.

[levi littleton]

>Colts don't hit anything compared to clones, possibly it's not the gun, might be the shooter.

 

Some funny stuff right there pard.  The targets I posted above are real.   I don't count shooting 24" x 24" steel at 10 yards as "hitting".  I knew Bob well enough, and Becky too, shot with them many times.  Even had Bob work on one gun.  Just one for obvious reasons.  30 years of shooting a Munden action job?   Mine didn't last a year.  But I still have the parts he butchered.

 

Bob could shoot.  That too was obvious.   But forget that and the typical SASS steel.   Try one of Bob's fun past times, a thumb tack with your Colts, at whatever distance you can still see a thumb tack and get back to me.   Last time I was shooting thumb tacks I could still see them easy enough, with good light, at 15 yards.  Hint for you?  That job is easier done with a 45 than a 38.  

 

I have a few Colts that can manage that job.  But dam few, out of the several dozen I own and shoot.

 

Money?  Yep, it is important.  Love my Colts but also know all too well they aren't the end all in six guns no matter how much you spend on them or what you can get when you sell them.   Or how much you are simply enamored with the name, Colt.    They are just guns, unless you are talking 1st Gen SAA or Bisleys.  Then you are holding some actual "history".  

 

I know what Colt SAAs were and I know what they have been in the recent past and what they are now.  I sure don't get a bur in my britches caring about what others think is something special.   Samual Colt's and his most recent "ancestors" have a lot in common with PT Barnum IMO.

 

I just got to add.  When some huckster like Doug Donnally, "made under the Dome", can hire a bunch of smiths in the local area (most of them ended up at Standard FWIW)  and build the best SAA anyone has seen since the 1930s there is obviously something wrong at Colt.  (no chit he says!)

 

And when folks start telling me a Uberti is a "clone" I  know the level of knowledge we are dealing with.  Uberti isn't a clone. A Pietta is very close but still no clone.  Nor is Standard a clone of a Colt.

 

Seriously funny to me that a discussion that started about a very fine handgun, like the China Camp, that was regulated at the factory, so easily turned into me mentioning just how chitty a good many Colt's really are.  Take a guess at just how many Colt SAAs have been regulated at the factory in the last 100 years?  I'd guess dang few.    If you are slinging light loaded lead at 12" x 12" steel it simply won't matter.   And then take a typical NIB USA made USFA gun out of the box and set it in a Ransome rest and see how it shoots for groups and for POA.  Typically?  Magical.  That is what 100 years of modern technology and some real human attention to detail will do for gun making. 

 

 

And yes, it's a Colt.  I had the horse cloned 🤣.

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

I was going to jump in with some sage observation as a retired Gunplumber.  Instead, I give a strong PLUS ONE to everything Levi said.  He said it all and much more eloquently than I could have.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I have a couple of what I consider really nice Second Gen Colt Clones in The GWll Pietta .

But you can only get them in 357 and 45 .

I would love to have the Shootest revolver in 44 .

But I doubt that is going to actually happen. 

Rooster 

[SIXGUN JIM]

This 44 special with a fitted 44-40 cylinder has been finely preserved in this bag since 2006.  USFA Owners group on Facebook has some collectors that have pretty amazing stuff

[levi littleton]

Appreciate the sentiment CC.

 

My Piettas got a whole lot more reliable when I replaced the hammers and triggers with 3rd Gen Colt parts.  Parts cost almost as much as the guns did🤣.   Does make for a fun beater though.

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

I have a couple of what I consider really nice Second Gen Colt Clones in The GWll Pietta .

But you can only get them in 357 and 45 .

I would love to have the Shootest revolver in 44 .

But I doubt that is going to actually happen. 

Rooster 

Rooster, Cimarron carries the Pietta in 44-40, but I'm thinking you meant 44 Spcl.

[levi littleton]

And nice guns they are.  This 7.5" is a 44-40 sold by Cimarron, built by Pietta.  My experience is most of them are real shooters.  But I've had issues with the actions a time or two.  Bad hammer cams for one.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

2 hours ago, SIXGUN JIM said:

This 44 special with a fitted 44-40 cylinder has been finely preserved in this bag since 2006.  USFA Owners group on Facebook has some collectors that have pretty amazing stuff

That's a beautiful 44 Special. 

I would love one like this 😍

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

I have a USFA 5 1/2 inch, BP frame in "dome" blue I bought direct from the factory in 2005. I also have two 1990s-era Colts, 5 1/2 inch, BP frame bought separately from various auction sites (I got lucky, they're about 100 serial numbers apart).

While the Colts will undoubtedly retain their value better, when I bought the USFA in 2005, USFA built a better SAA than Colt did. Guns are machines, but people buy trademarks and only Colt has the nearly 200 year history it has. I love my Colts. I also love my USFA. Other people can do a better job of explaining USPFA vs USFA than I can.

[levi littleton]

I'd actually forgotten this bit of my own USFA history.   Years past now when I spotted some really nice USFA guns while gawking in our local gun shop.  They had a large inventory of later USFA guns.   Some really nice ones, and all sorts of variations.  The only USFA-USPFA I had seen prior were obviously just way overpriced and hyped Ubertis.

 

These were neither overpriced nor being hyped. My first USFA purchase was a 7.5", blue and cased.  I took it home, shot it and came back the next morning with the first Colt SAA I had bought myself a few years earlier.  By then the 44-40 had an extra  44 Special cylinder and carved ivory grips.

 

The typical blue and cased USFA guns were selling for $750 each back then.  I traded that Colt .44 for a consecutive serial numbered pair of blue and cased 45s with 4 3/4" barrels.  Then all three USFA SAAs had consecutive serial numbers in the 25000 range.  Shot the pair the next day and came back again and bought a limited run, 3" Sheriff's Model @ $875.  They all shot amazingly well.  Life was good.  

 

 

 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I would love to have a USA made USFA 44 Special Pistol .

But at the prices they sell for I just bought a 3rd gen 1979 Colt SAA 44 Special here on the wire for less money then you can get a Clone for.

That makes it a hard call .

Long from now hopefully when Im dead and gone and my kids or grandkids have my guns .

Im thinking the Colt will still hold its value just because it says Colt on the barrel , Not because it's a better built gun .

Im even betting that my Beautiful GWll Del Rio Deluxe is a better built gun then most 3rd gen Colts.

But it will Never be worth more money .

But she is a Beautiful Lady.