Does your club have a "2-squibs-and-you're-out" rule?

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Not wanting to hijack another topic, I'm starting a new one. 

 

In that other discussion about squib removal, a pard said: "Our range has a 2-squib rule. 2 squibs in one match means you’re done shooting for the day at the moment of the second squib."

 

Squibs obviously fail both SASS minimum requirements of Power Factor (60) and velocity (400 fps).  But more importantly, they're also potentially dangerous to the shooter and those around the shooter, particularly the TO.  It seems sensible to stop someone and send them back to the reloading bench if they bring and shoot two squib loads in a single match.  It would also seem to avoid any necessity of booting an otherwise valued pard out of the club -- which may rightfully be viewed as heavy-handed club management -- because the repeat-squibber would probably tire of getting MDQ'd for squibs sooner rather than later and would either figure out an alternative source of CAS ammo or find a different pastime.

 

I'm wondering: do many clubs have this rule or a similar one?  What do y'all say?

 

Thanks in advance.

ND

[Leroy Luck]

I only know of one club around me that has that rule. They tell us at the safety meeting to get different ammo; borrow from someone or whatever. But I’ve never seen it enforced. 
 

There used to be another club that had the rule, but they’ve done away with it. Which is the best outcome in my opinion. 

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

Our club has that "rule", except they will allow you to swap out your ammo to another box of ammo.  As a result, we have always brought twice as much ammo as we need to a match.

 

I've seen it happen, at two different matches, where the shooter was having squibs.  For most shooters it's not a big deal, you they change out boxes of ammo and sort out the issue another time.  If they don't have enough ammo, most times folks will lend it to them to get them through the match.

 

It can get dangerous fast if someone, especially a fast shooter, if they are having random squibs and manage to stack a couple rounds in their barrel and then follow it up with a full load.

 

 

Edited September 5 by Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I shot at one out-of-state match where I was the TO much of the match.  There were numerous squibs during the match, all from local shooters.  They were unconcerned about their squibs and annoyed when told to ground firearms.  I discussed the matter with the match director after the match.  Next time I shot the match there were no more squibs.  Apparently, his reloading education was effective.  

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

No.  We have no such rule.  However, if somebody's having ammo issues, we always suggest they use different ammo.  I've found most folks will police themselves and either use different ammo or quit shooting for that match.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

Not aware of that rule at any of the clubs I shoot at. We have more shooters with shotgun squibs then we have with pistol or rifle.

[Chief Rick]

No

[Cypress Sun]

The "two squib rule" was, and maybe still is, an unofficial rule around most of the clubs in Florida. It was a get different ammo rule, not a you're done rule. Only saw it enforced twice...same shooters/different matches (husband and wife). 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Winter Range at Ben Avery. I was one of the TO's. A woman was having trouble with her ammo as in squibs or bullets not making it to the target. Pop, no clang so I think squib. Stop the shooter and have her ground the gun. She goes to the unloading table and no squib. So reshoot. Same stage, it happens again. Same outcome. PM says one more time or get more some other ammo.  Along comes the Range Master wanting to know why we're behind time in shooting the stage. They predict XX time for 20 shooters at each stage. The PM and I tell him why. He looses his mind. Yells at us for delaying the shoot. She should have been told stop or go get some more ammo. PM and I both agree that we're not stopping a shooter who's spent $$$$$$$ to shoot the match. Her husband goes to the car/truck and gets different ammo as we all walked to the next stage. And she's fine after that. Long story. Just think we should always try to get to a solution thats is safe and allows the shooter to continue.

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

... I've found most folks will police themselves and either use different ammo or quit shooting for that match.

 

I sure would. I would not need a rule if I experienced 2 squibs. I like my fingers and eyes. I would get more careful (slow down) after just one. I also have no objection to any such rule, at least as far as changing ammo.

 

A DQ? That would suck, but the stories suggesting repeat instances means some are not policing themselves. If 2 squibs meant a DQ, I would police myself at one instance (declare bad gun, particularly if there is any possibility the bullet did not make it out of the barrel).

 

I doubt I would wait for the TO to tell me to ground the gun, the risk would not be worth a possible chance at a reshoot. I'll take the misses. Finish the stage as best possible. Next shooter.

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

When it's said they have to get a different box of ammo are they switching to factory loads instead of their reloads? If they just grab a different box of the same reloads, that accomplishes nothing.

 

Now, anybody can have a squid. But a large percentage of the time once someone has one it will often be followed by more squibs. 

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

When it's said they have to get a different box of ammo are they switching to factory loads instead of their reloads? If they just grab a different box of the same reloads, that accomplishes nothing.

 

Now, anybody can have a squid. But a large percentage of the time once someone has one it will often be followed by more squibs. 

 

It all depends on their loading technique.  My wife loads her own BP 32's and does them in batches of 50, or one box.  She got distracted once with a work call and when she came back, she didn't load powder, just set the bullets and crimped.  It was a two day match and she shot the first day fine, but on day 2 she pulled the bad box.  Rifle was 38s so no problem.  First Pistol, squib, she put it down as a broken gun, second Pistol, squib, she put it down, did the shotgun and finished the stage.  We swapped out to a different box of ammo from the truck, and she ran fine the rest of the day.  If she had another squib from the new box, she would have been done.

 

Went home and pulled ALL of her .32's from the cabinet and weighed them.  Had it been smokeless, we may not have been able to tell them apart, but with the BP, there was enough of a difference to sort them out.  I pulled the bullets from all of the underweight cartridges (exactly 48...) and they were all without powder.

 

Another time I was posse marshal on and TOing a shooter and they had two squibs, one each on two separate stages.  Made them get a new box of ammo and they had no problems.  If that shooter had ended up with a third squib, from the new box, then they would have needed to get ammo from someone else or stop for the match.

 

That is why some clubs limit it to two squibs and then done, because you never know. 

[Shawnee Hills]

5 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

we're not stopping a shooter who's spent $$$$$$$ to shoot the match. 

What about all of the other shooters that spent $$$$$$$ to shoot the match that are now being delayed?  Seems a bit disrespectful to those folks who took the time to ensure that their gear was squared away.  Sure, things can happen but squibs aren't something to be dismissed easily.  Seeing one of those makes me wonder when the double charge is coming into play.

 

CAS is the most lackadaisical shooting sport with regards to safety that I've been involved in.  Perhaps if we saw more chronographs on the range and ammo requirements enforced the squib issue would cease to exist.

[El Chapo]

I had thought this was addressed by the shooter's handbook, but the rule is ambiguous.  Is a squib a round that didn't meet power factor?  A squib round has a (verified) power factor of 0.

[Todd Hayseed]

29 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

What about all of the other shooters that spent $$$$$$$ to shoot the match that are now being delayed?  Seems a bit disrespectful to those folks who took the time to ensure that their gear was squared away.  Sure, things can happen but squibs aren't something to be dismissed easily.  Seeing one of those makes me wonder when the double charge is coming into play.

 

CAS is the most lackadaisical shooting sport with regards to safety that I've been involved in.  Perhaps if we saw more chronographs on the range and ammo requirements enforced the squib issue would cease to exist.

I would haul a chronograph around with me - but for the opposite problem.  Someone would see me firing .357's and high base shotgun rounds and say my ammunition was too HOT.

 

....................... despite it all being black powder......................

[Todd Hayseed]

12 hours ago, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

Our club has that "rule", except they will allow you to swap out your ammo to another box of ammo.  As a result, we have always brought twice as much ammo as we need to a match.

So what is the actual procedure once a person has a squib?  Do they just stay there and clear it?  Is that the end of that stage, they clear it somewhere else and come back?

 

I never had a squib problem, but I did go to a match where my Rossi 92 jammed up (I had not figured out minimum cartridge length yet) to where it needed tools to clear it,  and my lever action shotgun got a case jammed in it so bad it may was well have been a squib.  It had to be cleared the same way.

 

I have not been back to that club since, it was pretty bad.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

12 minutes ago, Todd Hayseed said:

So what is the actual procedure once a person has a squib?  Do they just stay there and clear it?  Is that the end of that stage, they clear it somewhere else and come back?

 

I never had a squib problem, but I did go to a match where my Rossi 92 jammed up (I had not figured out minimum cartridge length yet) to where it needed tools to clear it,  and my lever action shotgun got a case jammed in it so bad it may was well have been a squib.  It had to be cleared the same way.

 

I have not been back to that club since, it was pretty bad.

The TO should stop the shooter from continuing with that gun and instruct them to set it down and then continue with the rest of the course of fire. The gun in question would then be taken by someone other than the shooter to the unload table after the stage is complete to clear it and determine if there is a bullet still in the barrel and then get it out if there is.

[John Kloehr]

23 minutes ago, Todd Hayseed said:

So what is the actual procedure once a person has a squib?  Do they just stay there and clear it?  Is that the end of that stage, they clear it somewhere else and come back?

 

I never had a squib problem, but I did go to a match where my Rossi 92 jammed up (I had not figured out minimum cartridge length yet) to where it needed tools to clear it,  and my lever action shotgun got a case jammed in it so bad it may was well have been a squib.  It had to be cleared the same way.

 

I have not been back to that club since, it was pretty bad.

Bad gun if declared by the shooter (and gives up reshoot).  Threading your question through what I see in the rules:

 

Start with page 14:

 

In the case of a suspected squib, the TO will instruct the shooter to make the
firearm safe and continue with the next firearm. If the barrel is later determined
to be clear, the shooter will receive a reshoot.

 

Then consider page 17:

 

If a competitor has a firearm malfunction that cannot be cleared during the course
of fire, the shooter may not leave the firing line until the firearm has been cleared.
A Match Disqualification penalty will be assessed to the shooter if they leave the
firing line with the malfunctioning firearm unless under the direct supervision of
a Match official.

 

Page 18:

 

If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving
the shooter’s hand(s) at the unloading area.

 

Page 24 (MDQ):

 

A shooter leaving the firing line with an un-cleared, malfunctioning firearm
unless under the direct supervision of a Match Official.

 

Page 28:

 

- A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left
in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the firearm in which it was loaded,
results in a Minor Safety Violation.
- Malfunctioning firearms still containing rounds will not warrant penalties
(except misses for unfired rounds) so long as the malfunction is declared and the
firearm is made safe.

 

Page 44:

 

Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed
as cleared at the unloading table.

 

Seems you could clear rounds before going to the unload table, but no penalty if announced in advance of going there. Also penalty still would apply for hammer down on an unfired round at the unload table, hence the "made safe" requirements, 

Edited September 5 by John Kloehr

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

As I said in the other thread, the shooter is done at the moment of the second squib. There’s no point in continuing with the stage because they are DQd right then, right there. 
 

To us it’s a safety issue as there is obviously a problem with the shooter’s ammo. Why risk a blown gun if a shooter gets ahead of the TO and stacks more than one in the barrel? I’ve seen it happen. 
 

If you’ve got two squibs in a box(es) of 100 rounds for a match, something is wrong. Best to stop and investigate what went wrong at the reloading bench before someone gets hurt. 

[watab kid]

so far everything i read above i agree with - ive not experienced more than one at a match personally and then only a couple times with my shotgun loads , not certain what caused it but that reloader is long gone now , 

 

i have had a friend that had issues with his rifle/revolver rounds , as well as fellow shooters that have had those issues , im not one to go ALL OUT ON DQs , if there is an issue ground the firearm and move on - take your misses , do better next time , 

but i dont ever want to see a catastrophic incident where anyone might get hurt - thats not why we do this , 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

1 hour ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

As I said in the other thread, the shooter is done at the moment of the second squib. There’s no point in continuing with the stage because they are DQd right then, right there. 
 

To us it’s a safety issue as there is obviously a problem with the shooter’s ammo.

So where does the DQ come from? Is this a club rule?

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

19 hours ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

So where does the DQ come from? Is this a club rule?

It’s a club rule, due to a few regular shooters who thru the years, had repeated ammo issues at every match, and with much forgiveness & counseling, never solved their ammo issues. Poof, poof, BANG!, squib, BANG! before they could be stopped. 

 

It eliminated the pleading and arguments with them and subsequent shooters. 

 

 

Edited September 6 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Squibs should be rare enough that hopefully grabbing a different box of ammo even if loaded with the same care as the first box it won't contain a squid round. I doubt that many are loading different boxes of ammo using different techniques and levels of caution. I get that someone can be distracted. I realize even the best reloader could have a squib.

How many reloaded use boxes for their reloads vs carrying them loose in bulk?

 

In the past it just seemed like there was always that one or two shooters that seemed to have more then their share of ammo issues.  For everyone else a squib was a one time or rare event.

 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Pretty lively discussion on this topic, glad I asked.  I think the issue only becomes relevant when one club member has so many squibs at so many matches that everyone seems to know about that shooter's ammo problem.  No one is happy about the situation -- but as some seem to stress, it is a real safety issue that needs to be dealt with, one way or the other.  Other than violations of the 170 Rule, squibs (and double-charged rounds, a related problem) are the most dangerous things that can happen on the firing line, in my opinion, as they can transform guns into shrapnel grenades.

[Rye Miles #13621]

No such rule at the clubs I shoot at that I’m aware of. Usually the person with squibs either stops shooting after a couple times or gets different ammo. I’ve seen folks get ammo from someone else to finish the match. Very rarely that someone wants to keep shooting their ammo after a few squibs.

[Black Hills Barb]

I actually thought that "after two squibs you had to get new ammo or stop shooting" was a rule.  I've heard it for years.  

[Sheriff Dill]

When i started reloading this spring i loaded 1400 rounds of 38’s. When I put them in the ammo safe I stacked the boxed ammo in order of making so i would know what order loaded them in. 
 

Day 1 of shooting went great. Day 2 my son has 2 squibs on different stages out of the same box of 100. I immediately grabbed that box and brought it to the car. 

Luckily both squibs just barely got stuck in the beginning of the rifle barrel. Unfortunately one of the squibs went unnoticed by everyone and when I went to shoot it wouldn’t allow me to get a round in the chamber. 
 

When I got home I sat in my basement in the peace and quiet. I took the remaining rounds I had made out of the boxes and shook each and every single round. If I heard the powder it went into a container if I wasn’t sure or didn’t hear anything it went into another container. When done I found 6 rounds that I either couldn’t hear or wasn’t sure. When I took them apart 1 of them didn’t have powder. The box of ammo I took to car has those 6 in it. The box was the 3rd box of ammo i had made. That round of ammo was when I had a primer issue with my press.

 

I have since purchased powder cop dies for each of my tool heads. Seeing someone getting hurt by an ammo/firearm issue was the biggest reserve for me to start reloading. Our club was very supportive but assertive with issues at the same time. 
 

I know I was completely humiliated and extremely mad at myself for the issues and the potentially dangerous situation I had allowed myself to create. I wanted to quit shooting immediately. 

Edited September 6 by Sheriff Dill

[Rip Snorter]

Had one squib down the decades.  Alone at our outdoor range on a nasty day.  No catastrophe though I did bulge the barrel on a favorite 1911.  That was it for the day.  When I got home I took apart a large run of 45 ACP.  Turned out to be a powder measure issue.  At a match, first squib I'd have been out of there embarrassed, no penalty required.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

15 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Pretty lively discussion on this topic, glad I asked.  I think the issue only becomes relevant when one club member has so many squibs at so many matches that everyone seems to know about that shooter's ammo problem.  No one is happy about the situation -- but as some seem to stress, it is a real safety issue that needs to be dealt with, one way or the other.  Other than violations of the 170 Rule, squibs (and double-charged rounds, a related problem) are the most dangerous things that can happen on the firing line, in my opinion, as they can transform guns into shrapnel grenades.

A few years back we had a shooter with multiple squibs.  He also overcharged ammo and blew up some guns.  He was banned from some ranges, and two SASS clubs sent him packing.  (He was banned from this Wire too.)   The root cause of his errors was the liquor he consumed while loading ammo.  Reloading is a task to be performed sober, refreshed and undistracted.

[Scarlett]

I have had a few squibs in my 12 years of shooting. Maybe 4? I did have two in one day - one in pistol and one in rifle. (I had a Dillon powder alarm). I completed the match and put the remaining ammo in a “suspect” bucket. That was back when I was shooting smokeless.  When that happened, the embarrassment made me FINALLY buy an RCBS lockout die. MAGIC little gadget! Set it and forget it! It will keep you from advancing the press if too little or too much powder! Don’t know HOW it works and don’t really care. I just know it works! 😘. It’s especially good for me because I load in bulk sessions and store in ammo cans.  

The people that make me nervous are the ones who have squibs and/or equipment issues with every stage and are always fiddling with the rifle looking down into the receiver…

 

link to amazon to buy the RCBS Lock Out Die. It’s not an affiliate link. I don’t get commission. 

 

https://a.co/d/5Uc5roz

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

Edited September 6 by Scarlett

[Dusty Devil Dale]

Just curious-- has anybody seen an injury accident or gun damage from a subsequent round being fired after a squib in pistols or rifle in CAS.  I once had a pump shotgun barrel peel back and cut my face from a hunting load, but I've not seen gun damage or personal injury from CAS squib loads.

In most cases but not always, our T.O.s do their job well and stop shooters before firing subsequent loads.  But it does occasionally occur.  But with light loads in pistols and rifle, and usually at least a little loading time after a shotgun squib for the T.O. to stop the shooter, damage/injuries seem to be rare. 

 

I guess I never really thought about assigning penalties for accidental loads that fail to meet SHB standards.  I always figured the standards were set to prevent people deliberately loading ammo down to gain competitive advantage.  I've never seen  a SDQ or MDQ or even a Procedural assigned for squib loads, nor would I ever have thought about assigning one.   I have seen shooters borrow different ammo at times or return to their vehicle to swap ammo, when it was suggested by a Match Range Officer. 

Usually everyone feels bad to see the shooter receive 3 or 4, or 9 misses for unfired rounds.  Their match is pretty well blown at that point. 

Just MHO.  Others here will disagree.  If anyone reports actually seeing damage in one of our matches, caused by a squib, MHO might change.  

I've seen injuries from OBDs and recently I had a shotgun hang fire that (absent good glssses) might have blinded me.  But I have never seen a rifle or pistol squib do damage from our cowboy loads. 

 

Edited September 7 by Dusty Devil Dale

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

3 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Just curious-- has anybody seen an injury accident or gun damage from a subsequent round being fired after a squib in pistols or rifle in CAS.  ..... But I have never seen a rifle or pistol squib do damage from our cowboy loads. 

 

 

I'd say you haven't shot enough!  I've only been at this for less than five years and I've seen: (1) a squib in a revolver with the bullet lodged just beyond the forcing cone so that it didn't interfere with rotation of the cylinder, so when the next round was fired, the cylinder itself was blown to pieces with the largest section flying to the shooter's left AND THROUGH A WALL; and (2) a squib in a toggle-link rifle (I think it was a 73) in which the bullet never left the chamber -- although the case extracted and ejected just fine and no one noticed the absence of a bullet heading downrange -- and thus prevented the next round from fully chambering so the shooter "double-clutched" the lever with more force the second time, causing inertial firing pin forward movement, a resulting OOBD, and some bloody but fortunately superficial shrapnel wounds to the shooter.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

I've only had 1 squib cowboy shooting, it was at eot 1st round out of my rifle, luckily I'm slower than molasses in the winter. Super confused and embarrassed never could figure out how it happened as I shoot black powder and I scoop powder for each round. Now I had 2 squibs shooting wildbunch one match turned out my Dillon powder measure needed a good cleaning. After 2nd squib i policed myself and was packing my stuff up told the to I'll be back to help posse duty, 4-5 people offered ammo so I could finish the shoot, did accept from a good friend (Gilly boy) ad long as he let me pay him that was a 5 min. Discussion. Sass has great folks that always want to help.

Rafe

Edited September 7 by Rafe Conager SASS #56958

[Texas Maverick]

I haven't had any squibs but I did get a bad batch of primers. Not sure what the deal was but in one match I had 35 FTF's out of the 120 rounds shot. I went home and disposed of the rest of that brick by taking it to my local shooting range and letting them get rid of them. I had already loaded rounds for the next two local matches so went ahead and took it to shoot and had 5 FTF's at one match and 3 at the next one. Since reloading with the new brick I haven't had any. I did pull a number of the bullets apart and they all had powder, just a bad primer. I also now view the primers when I dump them in the tray before inserting them into the primer tubes for missing anvils. I have found a couple that were questionable and I just threw them away. I don't know what is going on with Federal but I hope they get their quality control fixed. I have had a number of shooters tell me they have also recently experienced bad Federal primers in the past 6 months.

 

TM

Edited September 7 by Texas Maverick

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

On 9/6/2025 at 2:23 PM, Black Hills Barb said:

I actually thought that "after two squibs you had to get new ammo or stop shooting" was a rule.  I've heard it for years.  

I thought so too. I used to bring 2x the required ammo until I became more confident in my reloading skills