Hold Harmless form

[Tulsey, SASS#11236]

I have been looking at a hold harmless form for a gun club that is two pages long. Is this the norm or an overload of lawyer where as?  Thanks 

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

That's about normal.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Most of the liability waver forms around here are 1/2 to 1 page in length.   They are better than nothing, but a piece of paper is not going to save you if something bad happens.

[John Kloehr]

Most are about a page, most of those would be two pages if the print was large enough to easily read.

 

I think it could be as short as: "Guns are inherently dangerous. You must have eye and ear protection on the range. No open toed shoes. Pregnant women not allowed on the range. Use common sense. Request assistance for any questions. Whatever happens, it is not the range's fault."

 

Really just need the last sentence. But I am not a lawyer and all the other stuff is there for reasons. As an engineer, I know a waiver can defend against something called ordinary negligence. It won't prevent a suit getting filed, it is a line of defense to get it tossed. Nothing protects against something called gross negligence.

 

I also know there is a lot more to range operations than the waiver. Documented SOPs, documented and practiced emergency response plans, documented and verified facility inspections, ...

[Matthew Duncan]

6 hours ago, Tulsey, SASS#11236 said:

I have been looking at a hold harmless form for a gun club that is two pages long. Is this the norm or an overload of lawyer where as?  Thanks 

Try  NRA?

[El Sobrante Kid]

A "Hold Harmless" or "Release" form is a must-have. But understand, and confirm with an attorney if you like, a signed form will NOT keep you from being sued, maybe even successfully sued. A good approach would be to contact the company that insures your range, matches, etc., and ask them what they consider appropriate. GL!

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Definition of a lawyer, 'a person who without any conciousness, will sue anyone for anything even if there's no case'. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Understand legal ramifications of the clubs actions or lack of action.

Annual match, shooters pistol blows up, cuts his hand. He's off to urgent care. Afterwards when home he calls us and wants us to pay for his co-pay at the UC. We did.  I couldn't get our good hearted leadership to understand that the minute we wrote that check we assumed liability for his injuries.

[John Kloehr]

5 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Try  NRA?

The NRA does have training programs which can help with this.

 

First, there is RSO (RO) training. A Range Officer knows and enforces range rules in keeping with range policy. Biggest responsibility is safe operations, must know emergency response procedures.

 

Next level is CRSO (CRO). The Chief RSO establishes range policy.

 

For a CSRO, I do recommend the NRA Range Source Book (~$55, maybe plus shipping):

 

https://materials.nrahq.org/en-gb/product/nra-range-source-book-current-edition

 

Other than the NRA, I do not know of any range support program with documented standards. NSSF does not have one. The various sports have rules and standards for their sports, but all have the "range rules have precedence." An example is a shot over the berm is a match DQ at one place I shoot at, more lenient rules of your sport not with standing.

 

As far as I know, there is no official national shooting range standard, I have no idea if states have general restrictions or requirements. I do know counties and cities in various places make even having a range difficult. My own county in a generally 2A friendly place has essentially zoned outdoor ranges out of existence due to minimum setback requirements.

[El Sobrante Kid]

4 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Definition of a lawyer, 'a person who without any conciousness, will sue anyone for anything even if there's no case'. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Understand legal ramifications of the clubs actions or lack of action.

Annual match, shooters pistol blows up, cuts his hand. He's off to urgent care. Afterwards when home he calls us and wants us to pay for his co-pay at the UC. We did.  I couldn't get our good hearted leadership to understand that the minute we wrote that check we assumed liability for his injuries.

 

Well... a) not all lawyers are scumbags (most are not), b) a lawyer's job is to represent his client's interests above all other things, not cut the defendant slack to be "nice", and c) lawyers serve a valuable and needed function in our society. And NO, I am not, nor have I ever been, or studied to be, a lawyer.

 

As to your Annual Match incident, I don't think you (legally) accepted liability for his injuries, but your leadership certainly showed that they accepted some level of responsibility, which certainly seems like a bad idea. But your story, and the purpose of this thread (Hold Harmless Forms) brings up an interesting question. If a Club or Range put a clause/paragraph in their participation form that states something to the effect that "any injuries incurred by an individual due to their own equipment (NOT provided by the Club/Range) are the sole responsibility of the individual. By signing below the individual agrees to take full financial and personal responsibility for those injuries, and to NOT hold the Club/Range responsible."

 

I'm guessing that any insurer of a Club, Range, or Match, would have some valuable input.

[watab kid]

NO , everywhere ive ever gone - a lot of places - its a one page form , ours is here , 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

8 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

Well... a) not all lawyers are scumbags (most are not), b) a lawyer's job is to represent his client's interests above all other things, not cut the defendant slack to be "nice", and c) lawyers serve a valuable and needed function in our society. And NO, I am not, nor have I ever been, or studied to be, a lawyer.

 

....

Thank you El Sobrante.  Every profession has good honest members and bad dishonest ones, members with a conscience and others without.  Bashing all lawyers because some are truly despicable isn't any better or any funnier than bashing all cops because some are truly dirty.  What IS truly funny is how the folks who love to bash lawyers suddenly stop doing so when they need one.

[Chantry]

Not a lawyer (I have a conscience ), but in general I'm pretty sure you can not sign away the rights of another person (not counting guardianship or other very specific legal conditions).  So if something bad happens to YOU, a family member or heir can still sue the club.

Edited August 16 by Chantry

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Agree, when needed they are a real benefit. Its the ambulance chasers who give the profession a bad name. I was in a profession where we had to have both errors and omissions, faulty design. And personal liability insurance. Oh and lets not forget insurance for HR claims.

Example, at a high school we designed that was 25 years old. Kids went up on the roof with their bikes. Kid road over a skylight, skylight failed as it wasn't designed for bike traffic. Kid breaks his leg. And the District, General Contractor, roofing subcontractor, and us were sued. Along with 10 John Does. While the kid was  at fault and his parents should have been held accountable it cost us $25,000 to be part of the settlement. That was our deductible. 

[Hoss]

Never, in the history of jurisprudence, has a plaintiff & defendant, judge,jury all ready to go in a civil suit and the defense attorney jumps up waving a “release” firm and judge says “why didn’t you say so sooner”. “Case dismissed!”

 

a general release like that is of almost zero value. Not properly signed/witnessed etc. about the only thing it might do is make plaintiff answer a few questions about signing it.  
 

true story, several years back at a range I got my feet tangled up with a rifle rack, took a hard fall. Damaged a knee. Wound up having surgery. My health insurance covered it. Several months later the insurance company called, wanted more details. They were going to go after property owner. I was intentionally vague on where it happened. Might have even caused them to think it was at my home.i have zero doubt that I could have shed and won a judgement against range owner. And yes. I had signed a release 

[Bison Bud]

I have to agree with Matthew above in that the NRA should have something available without paying another lawyer.  However, any waiver is about as good as the paper it's written on when it comes to court.  Waiver or not, if they prove you to be negligent in some way, they can sue you and win.  However, a signed waiver may reduce the chances of someone filing a suit, in that they know they signed it in the first place (maybe not).  Good luck and good shooting to all.  

[Popcorn Kelly]

I dealt with dozens of agreements which contain both a waiver AND hold harmless/indemnification sections during my career.  However, many people don't understand the nuances between these clauses, but there are significant differences between them.  Waiver clauses were never a problem. However, hold harmless/indemnification clauses should be avoided like the plaque.  Hold harmless clause/indemnification clauses essentially makes you their insurer, which you are not.

On the advice of our attorney, we were advised to not sign any agreement that contained a Hold Harmless/Indemnification clause.  Waivers weren't the issue, but Hold Harmless/Indemnify clauses were a strict no go.  The reality is that any business has business insurance for just such an event.  Each party needs to assume its own risk.  A Business, including a gun club, should NEVER shift its normal business risk to a customer through Hold Harmless/Indemnification clauses.  They should get waivers all day long, but don't make your customer responsible for a normal business risk.  

 

Here is a brief summary of why Waivers are OK but you should never agree to Indemnify or Hold someone harmless. 

Waiver of Liability

• What it does: You agree not to sue the organizer for injuries or damages you personally suffer while participating.
• Who it protects: The organizer, from your claims against them.
• Typical scope: Covers things like you being hurt at the event because of the inherent risks of competitive shooting.
• Insurance impact: It doesn’t usually affect your insurance one way or the other—you’re just giving up your right to pursue a claim.

This is fairly standard in shooting sports, gyms, races, and other high-risk activities. Courts often enforce them if written properly.

Hold Harmless / Indemnification - READ CAREFULLY

• What it does: You agree to defend and reimburse the organizer (or others) if they are sued—even by a third party—because of something tied to your participation.
• Who it protects: The organizer, from anyone else’s claims (not just yours).
• Typical scope: If your actions (say, a negligent discharge) injure another participant, and that person sues both you and the event organizer, the “hold harmless” clause may require you to cover the organizer’s defense costs and liability.
• Insurance impact: Your personal insurance almost never covers paying for someone else’s legal defense. This could mean you are on the hook personally for their attorney’s fees, settlements, or judgments.

Well-run clubs carry their own liability coverage, which is designed to defend them if named in a lawsuit. They shouldn’t need you to “hold them harmless” beyond the waiver.

Practical Guidance

• Signing a waiver: Reasonable, if you want to participate. It just means you accept the risks.
• Signing a hold harmless / indemnification: Risky, and you should strongly consider not signing it:  You could be agreeing to cover thousands in legal costs that your insurer won’t touch - putting your personal assets and estate at risk.    
  • Don’t think this is serious?  Note the reference to the shooter’s heirs and estate contained on one gun club’s Waiver/Harmless/Indemnification form. 
    • I hereby agree to release and discharge from liability arising from negligence the XYZ Gun Club, and its directors, officers, members, agents, volunteers, participants, and all other persons or entities acting for them (hereinafter collectively referred to as "Releasees"), on behalf of myself and my children, parents, heirs, assigns, personal representative and estate,
  • In a worst-case scenario, if you have to indemnify another party, pay their attorney's fees, court costs, and penalties, while having no insurance to cover it, say goodbye to a substantial portion, if not all, of your assets.    This isn't theory - this is what these clauses mean.  
• Best practice for clubs: Use a waiver that clearly says participants accept the risks and waive claims against the club and its officers—but avoid indemnification language that shifts financial responsibility for third-party lawsuits onto participants.

Bottom line: Signing “hold harmless” language is a materially different risk than signing a waiver. A hold harmless clause essentially makes you their insurer, which you are not.  If all they need is protection against you suing them, a waiver suffices.

• Most clubs and ranges use waivers of liability, sometimes paired with an assumption of risk acknowledgment.
• Some insurance carriers push for indemnification clauses, but many clubs don’t enforce them strictly because, as you’ve experienced, they’re overreaching and discourage participation.

[Cypress Sun]

11 minutes ago, Popcorn Kelly said:

I dealt with dozens of agreements which contain both a waiver AND hold harmless/indemnification sections during my career.  However, many people don't understand the nuances between these clauses, but there are significant differences between them.  Waiver clauses were never a problem. However, hold harmless/indemnification clauses should be avoided like the plaque.  Hold harmless clause/indemnification clauses essentially makes you their insurer, which you are not.

On the advice of our attorney, we were advised to not sign any agreement that contained a Hold Harmless/Indemnification clause.  Waivers weren't the issue, but Hold Harmless/Indemnify clauses were a strict no go.  The reality is that any business has business insurance for just such an event.  Each party needs to assume its own risk.  A Business, including a gun club, should NEVER shift its normal business risk to a customer through Hold Harmless/Indemnification clauses.  They should get waivers all day long, but don't make your customer responsible for a normal business risk.  

 

Here is a brief summary of why Waivers are OK but you should never agree to Indemnify or Hold someone harmless. 

Waiver of Liability

• What it does: You agree not to sue the organizer for injuries or damages you personally suffer while participating.
• Who it protects: The organizer, from your claims against them.
• Typical scope: Covers things like you being hurt at the event because of the inherent risks of competitive shooting.
• Insurance impact: It doesn’t usually affect your insurance one way or the other—you’re just giving up your right to pursue a claim.

This is fairly standard in shooting sports, gyms, races, and other high-risk activities. Courts often enforce them if written properly.

Hold Harmless / Indemnification - READ CAREFULLY

• What it does: You agree to defend and reimburse the organizer (or others) if they are sued—even by a third party—because of something tied to your participation.
• Who it protects: The organizer, from anyone else’s claims (not just yours).
• Typical scope: If your actions (say, a negligent discharge) injure another participant, and that person sues both you and the event organizer, the “hold harmless” clause may require you to cover the organizer’s defense costs and liability.
• Insurance impact: Your personal insurance almost never covers paying for someone else’s legal defense. This could mean you are on the hook personally for their attorney’s fees, settlements, or judgments.

Well-run clubs carry their own liability coverage, which is designed to defend them if named in a lawsuit. They shouldn’t need you to “hold them harmless” beyond the waiver.

Practical Guidance

• Signing a waiver: Reasonable, if you want to participate. It just means you accept the risks.
• Signing a hold harmless / indemnification: Risky, and you should strongly consider not signing it:  You could be agreeing to cover thousands in legal costs that your insurer won’t touch - putting your personal assets and estate at risk.    
  • Don’t think this is serious?  Note the reference to the shooter’s heirs and estate contained on one gun club’s Waiver/Harmless/Indemnification form. 
    • I hereby agree to release and discharge from liability arising from negligence the XYZ Gun Club, and its directors, officers, members, agents, volunteers, participants, and all other persons or entities acting for them (hereinafter collectively referred to as "Releasees"), on behalf of myself and my children, parents, heirs, assigns, personal representative and estate,
  • In a worst-case scenario, if you have to indemnify another party, pay their attorney's fees, court costs, and penalties, while having no insurance to cover it, say goodbye to a substantial portion, if not all, of your assets.    This isn't theory - this is what these clauses mean.  
• Best practice for clubs: Use a waiver that clearly says participants accept the risks and waive claims against the club and its officers—but avoid indemnification language that shifts financial responsibility for third-party lawsuits onto participants.

Bottom line: Signing “hold harmless” language is a materially different risk than signing a waiver. A hold harmless clause essentially makes you their insurer, which you are not.  If all they need is protection against you suing them, a waiver suffices.

• Most clubs and ranges use waivers of liability, sometimes paired with an assumption of risk acknowledgment.
• Some insurance carriers push for indemnification clauses, but many clubs don’t enforce them strictly because, as you’ve experienced, they’re overreaching and discourage participation.

 

I used to cross out every indemnify and indemnification word on the waivers. I would initial every cross out.

Did that for many years, no one ever said anything....until one year, they did.

 

I hadn't received my confirmation for the state match so I called the match director who also owned the range. He told me that if I didn't sign the waiver without crossing out the indemnify words, that I wouldn't be allowed to participate in the match....period. I had to put some serious thought about signing it as written. I ended up signing it against better judgement. After the state match left that range, I went back to crossing it out again. 

 

I'm not suggesting that folks cross out the indemnify words as you may not be able to shoot the match....but be aware of the ramifications of signing the waiver as written.

These days, I won't sign any document that indemnifies anything or anybody. Yes, I look through every page of the document(s) to be signed looking for those very words.

[Popcorn Kelly]

I agree.  Cross it out.  Personally, I don't think most people understand what they are signing - my guess is that most think they are just agreeing they can't take action against the club.  The waiver portion is fine, but the reality is that everyone signing an Indemnification/Hold Harmless clause is exposing themselves and their families to financial ruin.  This is not an exaggeration.  That is exactly what that clause means.  They are onerous and, frankly offensive. 

 

IMO, Indemnity and Hold Harmless clauses have no place on a member/participant waiver form..   I'll sign waivers all day long.  Yes, I know there is a risk of injury and I agree to not take any action against the club if I'm injured.  I also understand that if I injure someone, I have some liability if that person takes action against me.  What I can't do is to act as the insurer if the injured participant also names the gun club who then looks to me to cover their attorney costs, court costs, and possible civil penalties.  (That why they carry insurance.)  

 

Some might argue that it hasn’t happened and is therefore unlikely to happen.  Perhaps, but doesn't that support the argument for removing the indemnification/hold harmless language? If it ever did happen, it could mean financial ruin that individual and their family.   No gun club that respects its members and event participants should transfer that sort of risk to a participant.  Those that do are doing so because they know few understand the implications of what they are signing.

Edited August 20 by Popcorn Kelly
single word spelling correction, no to know

[Black Angus McPherson]

I quit a gun club (refused to sign their liability form) because the new liability form they wanted me to sign removed all liability from them and was worded such that they could not be sued for anything short of intentional criminal actions on their part.  Plus, the kicker, I was to be held responsible for all legal fees, theirs and mine, if a suit was brought.  So, they get to hire the most expensive lawyer(s) they can find, file as many motions as possible to delay the issue for as long as possible, run up the costs, and I get to foot the entire bill.  Nah, I don't need your club and you don't need me.

 

To be honest, many of the club officers were jerks anyway and way too impressed with themselves and their power.  But that's another story.  When I was a member I just avoided them and everything was fine.  Some gun owners are their own worst enemy.

 

I know there are risks involved in the shooting sports and I accept them.  But there are limits.

 

Angus

 

[Popcorn Kelly]

4 hours ago, Black Angus McPherson said:

I quit a gun club (refused to sign their liability form) because the new liability form they wanted me to sign removed all liability from them and was worded such that they could not be sued for anything short of intentional criminal actions on their part.  Plus, the kicker, I was to be held responsible for all legal fees, theirs and mine, if a suit was brought.  So, they get to hire the most expensive lawyer(s) they can find, file as many motions as possible to delay the issue for as long as possible, run up the costs, and I get to foot the entire bill.  Nah, I don't need your club and you don't need me.

 

 

This is EXACTLY what the terms Indemnify and Hold Harmless mean:  YOU insure them and agree that you (or your estate) will pay their attorney fees, costs, and civil penalties.  But, any liability insurance you have won't extend to you agreeing to also insure them.  It'll only insure you.  Ask your attorney or insurer. 
Waivers are fine, but why should I risk my family's future and well-being by having to insure the club, too?  I guarantee you the club has insurance.  If the club's insurance wants to turn around and sue me, that's fine - I have insurance for that.