WTC Miss Can't Cause A "P"

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

 

First, I want to thank Misty for having Branchwater Jack's video imbedded in the ROBS Power Point, I'm getting ready to teach a class and won't have Wi-Fi so this will help.

Hopefully you will watch this video first and then read my WTC's.

 

Suppose the next stage (after the one in the video) has 4 targets and instructions are with rifle beginning on either end target, shoot the targets in a 10 round, single tap Nevada Sweep. Shooter misses with the first 2 shots then hits the left end target and continues the sweep not missing any more targets. What's The Call?

 

The next stage has 3 pistol targets and instructions are with the first 5 rounds engage the targets in a 2-1-2 sweep from either end, repeat instructions with the second 5 rounds. Shooter hits target one with the first 2 shots, 3rd shot misses, 4th shot hits target two, 5th shot hits target three. Second 5 rounds started on target three and were shot 2-1-2 with no misses. What's The Call?

 

In case there is a question the sweep is 2 shots target one, 1 shot target two and 2 shots target three. All targets, on each stage, have 2 feet edge to edge between the targets.

 

Again, Branchwater Jack did a great job on the video so please watch it first.

 

Thanks

Randy

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

7 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

First, I want to thank Misty for having Branchwater Jack's video imbedded in the ROBS Power Point, I'm getting ready to teach a class and won't have Wi-Fi so this will help.

Hopefully you will watch this video first and then read my WTC's.

Video shows restricted

7 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Suppose the next stage (after the one in the video) has 4 targets and instructions are with rifle beginning on either end target, shoot the targets in a 10 round, single tap Nevada Sweep. Shooter misses with the first 2 shots then hits the left end target and continues the sweep not missing any more targets. What's The Call?

According to the target layout and stage instructions, the 3rd shot MUST be on one of the two inside targets depending on which side the shooter chose to start. Shooter earned a P plus the total misses.

7 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

The next stage has 3 pistol targets and instructions are with the first 5 rounds engage the targets in a 2-1-2 sweep from either end, repeat instructions with the second 5 rounds. Shooter hits target one with the first 2 shots, 3rd shot misses, 4th shot hits target two, 5th shot hits target three. Second 5 rounds started on target three and were shot 2-1-2 with no misses. What's The Call?

The fourth round has a designated target it MUST hit according to the stage instructions. That target is #3. Target #2 was hit with fourth round therefore the shooter earned a P plus any misses. 

7 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

In case there is a question the sweep is 2 shots target one, 1 shot target two and 2 shots target three. All targets, on each stage, have 2 feet edge to edge between the targets.

 

Again, Branchwater Jack did a great job on the video so please watch it first.

 

Thanks

Randy

 

 

 

[John Kloehr]

I think I followed the flowchart correctly...

 

2 rifle misses (shot #1 and #2), 1 pistol miss (pistol1, shot #3), and a P.

 

There are 2 is 1 P events (rifle shot #3, pistol 1 shot #4), but only one P is assessed on any stage.

 

Two feet between targets seems sufficient to me.

 

Will rethink, and edit anything I rethink... Rifle shot #3 is not a P.

[Scarlett]

Video worked fine for me. These scenarios are what cause a lot of conversation… I agree with @Tennessee williams .

 

Hugs!

Scarlett 

[Tennessee williams]

45 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I think I followed the flowchart correctly...

Xxx

45 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

2 rifle misses (shot #1 and #2), 1 pistol miss (pistol1, shot #3), and a P.

 

There are 2 is 1 P events (rifle shot #3, pistol 1 shot #4), but only one P is assessed on any stage.

 

Two feet between targets seems sufficient to me.

 

Will rethink, and edit anything I rethink... Rifle shot #3 is not a P.

Doesn't make any sense. There are two seperate scenarios put forth. Looks like you lumped them together.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

Xxx

Doesn't make any sense. There are two seperate scenarios put forth. Looks like you lumped them together.

The video played fine for me.

Agree, two different scenarios. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

@Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903

 

Here is another scenario to consider as well. With their rifle, they engage pistol targets with their first two rounds. Where does round 3 go? What are the penalties at that point?

 

 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

Well hitting pistol targets with rifle rounds are misses. So 2 misses and then they continue the correct sequence on the rifle targets skipping the first two as they are already misses.

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

Xxx

Doesn't make any sense. There are two seperate scenarios put forth. Looks like you lumped them together.

I read it as a single stage with a rifle string and a pistol string (with no mention of shotgun so took it as irrelevant).

 

For the rifle string, I see 2 misses, no further call. I'll try to remember to bring up the flowchart again later to look at the pistol string separately. Definitely one pistol miss, is the next round on plate 2 a P? 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

55 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

@Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903

 

Here is another scenario to consider as well. With their rifle, they engage pistol targets with their first two rounds. Where does round 3 go? What are the penalties at that point?

 

 

Sorry for the slow reply, I tried to reply on my phone but it was logged off of SASS and I don't remember my password, so I had to wait until I got back to my computer. The first 2 shots on the pistol targets are scored as misses so you must pick up on the 3rd target, from either end and continue the sweep. Penalty is 2 misses providing the shooter successfully completes the Nevada Sweep and doesn't have any more misses.

 

@Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 thanks again for all your videos and I hope you decide to add to the collection! 🤠

 

Randy

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

14 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I read it as a single stage with a rifle string and a pistol string (with no mention of shotgun so took it as irrelevant).

 

For the rifle string, I see 2 misses, no further call. I'll try to remember to bring up the flowchart again later to look at the pistol string separately. Definitely one pistol miss, is the next round on plate 2 a P? 

Yes, this is 2 separate stages, I suggest you look at both again.

 

Thanks

Randy

[Sedalia Dave]

6 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Suppose the next stage (after the one in the video) has 4 targets and instructions are with rifle beginning on either end target, shoot the targets in a 10 round, single tap Nevada Sweep. Shooter misses with the first 2 shots then hits the left end target and continues the sweep not missing any more targets. What's The Call?

 

2 misses and a P. The P was earned because round 3 struck the wrong target.

 

In a 4 target Neveda Sweep, Round 3 had to be placed on either target 2 or 3.  By hitting target 1 the shooter earned a P.

 

7 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

The next stage has 3 pistol targets and instructions are with the first 5 rounds engage the targets in a 2-1-2 sweep from either end, repeat instructions with the second 5 rounds. Shooter hits target one with the first 2 shots, 3rd shot misses, 4th shot hits target two, 5th shot hits target three. Second 5 rounds started on target three and were shot 2-1-2 with no misses. What's The Call?

  

Miss and a P. The P was earned because round 4 struck the wrong target.

Rounds 4 and 5 had to hit target 3. Because round 4 hit target 2 and not target 3 the shooter earned a P.

 

In both scenarios the Miss(s) DID NOT cause the P. The P was earned because a round did not hit the correct target in the sequence.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I agree with both videos, great explanation Branchwater Jack🤠

[Flying W Ramrod]

As we don't know what target he started on, "start on either target", and we can't know intent, the first three are misses, no clang.

If he was starting on the right target, shot 4 is correct, no P.

If he was starting on the left target, shot 4 would be a P.

Again, as we are not Karnak the Great, we can't tell which target he was starting on,

No actually seeing the target placement, i.e. how far apart they were,

My call would be 3 misses, no P.

 

[Griff]

I gotta admit, I struggled with my assessment on these two scenarios.  I've changed my mind several times on both... but, the following are my thoughts and explanation of my conclusions... if I'm wrong... convince me.

6 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Suppose the next stage (after the one in the video) has 4 targets and instructions are with rifle beginning on either end target, shoot the targets in a 10 round, single tap Nevada Sweep. Shooter misses with the first 2 shots then hits the left end target and continues the sweep not missing any more targets. What's The Call?

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?  No.

2. Assess misses:  2

3. Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?  No.

4. Did target placement afford an opportunity for a clear miss?  Yes.  Assess P.

 

Since the shooter was to start on either the right or left end, the 3rd shot should have been on either center target, but... it wasn't,  whether intentional or not, we can only determine which target was hit, an end target.  Ergo, the "P". 

 

Quote

The next stage has 3 pistol targets and instructions are with the first 5 rounds engage the targets in a 2-1-2 sweep from either end, repeat instructions with the second 5 rounds. Shooter hits target one with the first 2 shots, 3rd shot misses, 4th shot hits target two, 5th shot hits target three. Second 5 rounds started on target three and were shot 2-1-2 with no misses. What's The Call?

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?  No.

2. Assess misses:  1

3. Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?  Yes.

4.No further call.

 

The operative word being "hit", not "engaged"... since we can't ascertain how the shooter intended to shot the targets, we can only determine the order they were hit.    In the 1st scenario, the shooter clearly HIT the wrong target with the 1st shot that hit a target.  In the 2nd scenario, the targets were HIT in the correct order, except for a 2nd hit  on target 3.  The shooter shot the balance of the pistol  sequence correctly.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

9 hours ago, Griff said:

I gotta admit, I struggled with my assessment on these two scenarios.  I've changed my mind several times on both... but, the following are my thoughts and explanation of my conclusions... if I'm wrong... convince me.

 

I will do my best to convince you on the second scenario, I agree with you 100% on the first scenario.

 

9 hours ago, Griff said:

Quote

The next stage has 3 pistol targets and instructions are with the first 5 rounds engage the targets in a 2-1-2 sweep from either end, repeat instructions with the second 5 rounds. Shooter hits target one with the first 2 shots, 3rd shot misses, 4th shot hits target two, 5th shot hits target three. Second 5 rounds started on target three and were shot 2-1-2 with no misses. What's The Call?

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?  No.

2. Assess misses:  1

3. Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?  Yes.

4.No further call.

 

The operative word being "hit", not "engaged"... since we can't ascertain how the shooter intended to shot the targets, we can only determine the order they were hit.    In the 1st scenario, the shooter clearly HIT the wrong target with the 1st shot that hit a target.  In the 2nd scenario, the targets were HIT in the correct order, except for a 2nd hit  on target 3.  The shooter shot the balance of the pistol  sequence correctly.

3. Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?    No!

 

Each shot has an intended target number, shots 1 & 2 hit target one correctly. Shot 3 misses target two (we agree on the miss), shot number 4 must hit target three per the scenario, instead it hit target 2 creating the Procedural, shot 5 correctly hit target three.

 

I hope my explanation helps?

Randy🤠

 

[Griff]

37 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

I will do my best to convince you on the second scenario, I agree with you 100% on the first scenario.

 

3. Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?    No!

 

Each shot has an intended target number, shots 1 & 2 hit target one correctly. Shot 3 misses target two (we agree on the miss), shot number 4 must hit target three per the scenario, instead it hit target 2 creating the Procedural, shot 5 correctly hit target three.

 

I hope my explanation helps?

Randy🤠

If you read the Miss Flow Chart literally, it asks if the targets were HIT in the correct order... not whether they were shot at in the correct order.  The latter would require us to devine where those shots were intended to strike.  I also agree that we know where each shot should strike.  If the MFC were to read, "...were the targets shot at in the correct order?", I'd absolutely call a "P".  This was the portion I'm still struggling with.  If I were called onto a witness stand in a Court of Law, I would swear that the targets were HIT in the correct order, excepting any misses.  If the question was, "...were they shot at in the correct order?"  I'd agree, no.  I once encountered a very quick gunfighter while I was timing  (The stage ended with a pistol double tap sweep on five targets from either direction).  The spotters called him clean... I asked them where his last shot landed.  They couldn't answer.  I then asked the shooter.  He thought for a second and said, target #4.  I called the P.  Sometimes the best witness is the perpetrator.  That was about the time I quit running the timer.  

 

Looking at the other side of the MFC, the equivalent question is, "Did the shooter ENGAGE the targets in he correct order?"  (Emphasis added)... Putting that question on the right side would change my answer to a "P".   Even though it does require us to assume the shooter was attempting to engage the middle target with shot #3.  

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

Looking at the other side of the MFC, the equivalent question is, "Did the shooter ENGAGE the targets in he correct order?"  (Emphasis added)... Putting that question on the right side would change my answer to a "P".   Even though it does require us to assume the shooter was attempting to engage the middle target with shot #3.

Hopefully we will have @PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L step in and clarify this for all of us? My contention is that the targets were not engaged in the correct order and they were not hit in the correct order either. Also I do not see why we have to assume the shooter was attempting to engage the middle target with shot #3? Shot #3 had to hit the middle target not to create a miss, if it didn't hit a target or a "P" if hit a different pistol target. Shot #4 had to hit target #3 not to cause a "P" for hitting the incorrect target.

 

Let's try a different scenario and see if it is any easier to understand?  Engage the 3 pistol targets with a 5 shot, single tap, Nevada Sweep beginning in either end target. Shooter hits left target with shot #1, misses all targets with shot #2, hits the center target with shot #3, hits the right target with shot #4 and hits the center target with shot #5.  What's The Call?

 

Randy

[Eyesa Horg]

33 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Let's try a different scenario and see if it is any easier to understand?  Engage the 3 pistol targets with a 5 shot, single tap, Nevada Sweep beginning in either end target. Shooter hits left target with shot #1, misses all targets with shot #2, hits the center target with shot #3, hits the right target with shot #4 and hits the center target with shot #5.  What's The Call?

Still early! 

My thought is a miss for shot #2 and a P for hitting target #2 with shot #3 which should have been on target #3.

[Tennessee williams]

17 hours ago, Griff said:

 

1. Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?  No.

2. Assess misses:  1

3. Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?  Yes.

Targets were not hit in the correct order. 2-1-2 sweep. We do not have to know where the shooter intends to shoot because we know where the stage instructions say each round MUST go. I.E. SHOTS 1 and 2 MUST go on an end target. Shot 3 MUST go on the 2nd target. Shots 4 and 4 MUST go on target 3(unengaged end target). The shooters 4th shot hits target 2 instead of target 3 therefore they HIT the wrong target with their 4th shot earning a P. 

17 hours ago, Griff said:

4.No further call.

P actually

17 hours ago, Griff said:

The operative word being "hit", not "engaged"... since we can't ascertain how the shooter intended to shot the targets, we can only determine the order they were hit. 

4th round MUST HIT an end target in a 2-1-2 sweep regardless of which side they start on.

17 hours ago, Griff said:

  In the 1st scenario, the shooter clearly HIT the wrong target with the 1st shot that hit a target. 

2nd scenario the shooter clearly HIT the wrong target.

17 hours ago, Griff said:

In the 2nd scenario, the targets were HIT in the correct order, except for a 2nd hit  on target 3.  The shooter shot the balance of the pistol  sequence correctly.

No

 

But I still love ya

[Griff]

I'm still trying to reconcile the Miss Flow Chart where a target is missed and it asks if the targets were hit in the correct order.  I believe you're asking me to interpret the word "HIT" in that question, as "ENGAGED".  MANY moons before there RO classes, and in nearly all the RO classes I've attended since... it's been stated that one shouldn't "interpret" what's written, but apply it verbatim.   "Hit" implies the target was struck.  As asked, except for any misses, were the targets struck in the correct order?

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But... I'll withdraw my finding... as in truth, per Randy's written instructions, the shooter was instructed to engage the targets in a 2-1-2 sweep.  The shooter clearly did not follow that stage instruction... earning a "P".    Which is clearly laid out in the examples of 10 second penalties elsewhere in the SHB.  

[T-Square]

@Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 More Firing Line videos, Please,

[Tennessee williams]

4 hours ago, Griff said:

I'm still trying to reconcile the Miss Flow Chart where a target is missed and it asks if the targets were hit in the correct order.  I believe you're asking me to interpret the word "HIT" in that question, as "ENGAGED".  MANY moons before there RO classes, and in nearly all the RO classes I've attended since... it's been stated that one shouldn't "interpret" what's written, but apply it verbatim.   "Hit" implies the target was struck.  As asked, except for any misses, were the targets struck in the correct order?

 

Not really any interpretations required. You may be mixing up with engagement/reengagement options available to the shooter. Look at it this way...

 

Target array is is 10 static targets. 

Instructions say single tap sweep the ten targets from either end.

 

The shooter HITS the first 3 targets, then misses the 4th target. The shooter reengages the 4th target and continues on through the 9th target with no other misses. That call is 1 miss and a P. The 5th round fired has a designated target to HIT which is the 5th target. This 5th round hit the 4th.

 

What you may be thinking about...

 

Same array and instructions but the shooter... Hits targets 1 through 3 and then jacks out a round when they engaged target 4. The shooter has choices in THIS case.

-Shooter can reengage target 4 and continue on in the shooting string until they get to target 10 and reload and hit target 10 for a no call.

-Shooter can reengage target 4 and continue on with the shooting string until they get to target 10 and not reload and take the miss on target 10 with no penalty other than the miss.

-Shooter can skip target 4 and continue on through the string to target 10 taking the miss on target 4 without any other penalty. This last scenario is the reason your interpretation of the miss/flow chart is wrong. The way you reason the chart, would give a P on this one when one is not merited. The targets were not HIT in the correct order, but they were engaged in the correct order in this instance. 

[John Kloehr]

7 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Not really any interpretations required. You may be mixing up with engagement/reengagement options available to the shooter. Look at it this way...

 

Target array is is 10 static targets. 

Instructions say single tap sweep the ten targets from either end.

 

The shooter HITS the first 3 targets, then misses the 4th target. The shooter reengages the 4th target and continues on through the 9th target with no other misses. That call is 1 miss and a P. The 5th round fired has a designated target to HIT which is the 5th target. This 5th round hit the 4th.

 

What you may be thinking about...

 

Same array and instructions but the shooter... Hits targets 1 through 3 and then jacks out a round when they engaged target 4. The shooter has choices in THIS case.

-Shooter can reengage target 4 and continue on in the shooting string until they get to target 10 and reload and hit target 10 for a no call.

-Shooter can reengage target 4 and continue on with the shooting string until they get to target 10 and not reload and take the miss on target 10 with no penalty other than the miss.

-Shooter can skip target 4 and continue on through the string to target 10 taking the miss on target 4 without any other penalty. This last scenario is the reason your interpretation of the miss/flow chart is wrong. The way you reason the chart, would give a P on this one when one is not merited. The targets were not HIT in the correct order, but they were engaged in the correct order in this instance. 

I'm still struggling because the flow chart question is "hit in the correct order except for misses." "engaged in the correct order" is in the other flow chart branch for no misses.

 

Shooter hits first 3 targets, but shot 4 hits target 5...

 

Shooter continues on, 6, 7,  8, 9, 10, and then sends the last round into the berm for a miss (and to clear the gun)... Hit in the correct order except for misses... Flow chart leads me to 1 miss, no further call.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

43 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I'm still struggling because the flow chart question is "hit in the correct order except for misses." "engaged in the correct order" is in the other flow chart branch for no misses.

 

Shooter hits first 3 targets, but shot 4 hits target 5...

 

Shooter continues on, 6, 7,  8, 9, 10, and then sends the last round into the berm for a miss (and to clear the gun)... Hit in the correct order except for misses... Flow chart leads me to 1 miss, no further call.

 

In that case the "miss" was the result of the procedural for engaging and hitting the targets in an incorrect order.

If the shooter had hit any rifle target with that 10th round, that would also have been a "P" (not a miss)  but the rules limit procedurals to one per stage.

 

 

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In that case the "miss" was the result of the procedural for engaging and hitting the targets in an incorrect order.

If the shooter had hit any rifle target with that 10th round, that would also have been a "P" (not a miss)  but the rules limit procedurals to one per stage.

 

 

Thank you for the explanation on this one. I felt this should be a P, it is the wording in the flowchart (taken literally in the "miss" branch, along with "engage" being selected on the other chart branch. Still have some problems with interpretation in other scenarios, I put this up as an outer bound.

[Griff]

TW, no, I wasn't confusing anything.  I was simply pointing out that the wording in that portion of the MFC was misleading.  After being directed in the OP to watch the included video, the wording in the MFC jumped out at me as a glaring misdirection.  As it's clear from other portions of the SHB that it should also read "engaged".  

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

This sort of discussion makes my Head Hurt.  Plus my Caffeine Low Light is glowing brightly.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

4 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

This sort of discussion makes my Head Hurt.  Plus my Caffeine Low Light is glowing brightly.

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to get before I teach a class August 23.  Some parts of the rule book can be a little confusing.

Thanks to all who have replied! 🤠

 

Randy

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

18 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

What you may be thinking about...

 

Same array and instructions but the shooter... Hits targets 1 through 3 and then jacks out a round when they engaged target 4. The shooter has choices in THIS case.

-Shooter can reengage target 4 and continue on in the shooting string until they get to target 10 and reload and hit target 10 for a no call.

-Shooter can reengage target 4 and continue on with the shooting string until they get to target 10 and not reload and take the miss on target 10 with no penalty other than the miss.

-Shooter can skip target 4 and continue on through the string to target 10 taking the miss on target 4 without any other penalty. This last scenario is the reason your interpretation of the miss/flow chart is wrong. The way you reason the chart, would give a P on this one when one is not merited. The targets were not HIT in the correct order, but they were engaged in the correct order in this instance. 

 

 

[Tennessee williams]

48 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

Pictures worth a thousand words. A video saves a debate! Thanks for that