1927 Winchester 1897 ammo type

[Trenchgun831]

Hello, I just picked up a 30” full choke 1897 Winchester made in 1927 that I’m hoping to use for dove season this year. (Hunting with an almost 100 year old gun sounds very cool)

I was wondering, I know you can’t shoot steel birdshot out of them. 
 

what is the cheapest/best birdshot that you can shoot out of it without harming the barrel? 

[Trenchgun831]

Also how would I go about plugging the magazine tube to only hold 2 rounds? (For hunting regulations) 

[Sedalia Dave]

First the easy part.  Cut a piece of 1/2" wood dowel 8 inches long. Round the ends slightly. Now you just have to disassemble the magazine tube top, insert the plug, and reassemble. 

 

Now for the hard part. You need to have a competent gunsmith ream the chamber for modern 2 3/4" shells. AFAIK all 97's were designed to shoot roll crimp shells so the chamber is not long  enough to accommodate the folded crimp of  modern 2 3/4".

 

Yes, I know lots of people get away with shooting modern 2 3/4" shells in original 97's without reaming the chamber. However with Magnum loads you risk excessive chamber pressure and rupturing a barrel.

 

Once the above is done any shotshell loaded with lead or bismuth shot will be perfectly safe to use,

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Roll your own ammo.  Use either all brass 2.5" Magtech, or trim some AA's back to that length.

12 grains of Red Dot with anywhere from 1 to 1-1/8 oz of shot should be adequate.

If you want a stouter load, go with 16.4 grains of Red Dot with 1-1/8 ounce.  This load was what my father used for trap shooting.  I used it for years in Cowboy shoots until I realized that it had too much recoil in my 19" Parker, so I developed the 12 grain load after deciding that the 10 grain load I'd read about was too wimpy.

And this is my primary Main Match shotgun...



And, if you are not sure what's so special about it...



Yep, it's a Black Diamond Trap model.  It may have a faded finish, but it's the tightest 97 in my collection, or that I've ever handled.   It is one heck of a sweet shooter, and has the most natural pointing aim of any of the ones I have.  (This, a generic 30", a 20", a replica Trench Gun, a 93/97 and a real 93 with a 30" barrel.)

Edited July 20 by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

[Blackwater 53393]

Any competent gunsmith can “relieve” the forcing cone on your ‘97 which should eliminate the issue of higher pressures from folded crimped shells. 
 

You will still need to avoid steel shot and any magnum pressure ammunition.

 

The wooden spacer mentioned by Sedalia Dave will take care of the capacity issue.

[Trenchgun831]

Thank you guys! 
my FFL is also my gunsmith so I can hopefully have to do this to it while I’m there picking it up. The dowel should be easy on my part. 

4 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Roll your own ammo.  Use either all brass 2.5" Magtech, or trim some AA's back to that length.

12 grains of Red Dot with anywhere from 1 to 1-1/8 oz of shot should be adequate.

If you want a stouter load, go with 16.4 grains of Red Dot with 1-1/8 ounce.  This load was what my father used for trap shooting.  I used it for years in Cowboy shoots until I realized that it had too much recoil in my 19" Parker, so I developed the 12 grain load after deciding that the 10 grain load I'd read about was too wimpy.

And this is my primary Main Match shotgun...



And, if you are not sure what's so special about it...



Yep, it's a Black Diamond Trap model.  It may have a faded finish, but it's the tightest 97 in my collection, or that I've ever handled.   It is one heck of a sweet shooter, and has the most natural pointing aim of any of the ones I have.  (This, a generic 30", a 20", a replica Trench Gun, a 93/97 and a real 93 with a 30" barrel.)

This is one pretty shotgun!

[WOODFOX , sass#34179]

That's why you see so many 97's with cracked stocks / short forcing cone 

[Outlaw Gambler]

Steel Shot will ruin the bore and some later models were built with 2 3/4" chambers. Check the top rear of the barrel to see if it stamped as such.

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Everytime this topic comes up it amazing the number of people that think the 2 3/4" chamber in early guns were designed for roll crimp shells and are shorter than "modern" 2 3/4" folded crimp chambers.  All 12 gauge Model 97s had 2 3/4" chambers and were designed for smokeless powder.  Remember the 2 3/4" measurement is of the FIRED shell.  For those old enough to remember when roll crimped and star crimped ammo were both widely used many unfired roll crimp loads were actually longer than most folded crimp shells.  That is simply because more of the case is used to make the folded crimp.  BOTH however were no longer than 2 3/4" when fired.  A 2 3/4" chamber is a 2 3/4" chamber PERIOD.  What is differnt is many "modern" guns have a milder forcing cone angle.  Heck many "modern" guns are even back bored.  Hundreds of millions of 2 3/4" shells of all types have been fired in 97s over the past 100+ years and they do not need to be modified.  The forcing cone might be lengthened because some believe it reduces recoil but the forcing cone is not the chamber and does not to be modifed to safely shoot the gun.  Steel shot and some other "modern" innovations were not made for these old guns but they are certainly safe with lead shot loads.  The 16 gauge 97s were made with 2 9/16" chambers prior to 1927 when Winchester standardized their 16 gauge loads at 2 3/4".  The 2 3/4" 16 gauge chambers in the Model 97s were announced in Winchester's 1927 catalog.

 

Here are a couple of short excepts on this topic.  The first is from the Turnbull Restorations website.

 

 

THE CHAMBERING CONUNDRUM: WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW

 

Now, let’s talk chamber lengths, because this is where things get interesting (and where collectors need to pay attention). Early 12-gauge Model 1897s were designed for 2 3/4-inch shells, making them compatible with modern ammunition. However, the 16-gauge takedown version, introduced in 1899, was originally chambered for 2 9/16-inch shells—a fact that has tripped up more than one unsuspecting shooter. It wasn’t until 1927 that Winchester standardized the 16-gauge chamber to 2 3/4-inches.

 

So, if you happen to come across a 16-gauge Model 1897, do yourself a favor—check that chamber length before loading modern shells. It’s a small but crucial detail that separates a fine collector’s piece from an accidental wall-hanger.

 

 

The next is from one of the shotgun loading websites.

 

"It is easy to assume that a 2 3/4-inch shell would be the same length no matter how it’s loaded. After all, it’s marketed as “2 3/4-inch.” But if you measure rolled and folded-crimp shells, you will see that the folded has an overall length is about 1/4 inch shorter than rolled. (They are both less than 2-3/4.)

 

Shells are measured when the shell is unfolded, so a folded crimp is actually shorter than a rolled-crimped shell. This comes into play when you load rolled crimp shells into a firearm. You may find that a shotgun that is rated for nine shells can only load eight rolled-crimp shells because they are slightly longer."

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

 

P.S.  A 12 gauge 2 3/4" magnum shotshell has a maximum average pressure of 11,500 psi. This pressure rating is the same as for the maximum pressure of standard 2 3/4" shells, as defined by SAAMI.  "Magnum" loads may contain more powder and potentially larger shot or slugs.  However, the maximum allowable pressure remains the same to ensure safety in standard 2 3/4" chamber 12-gauge firearms.

 

 

 

[Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104]

🇺🇸 Hey Larson, by chance did you stay at a Holiday Inn over the weekend?🤔

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

15 minutes ago, Chas B. Wolfson, SASS #11104 said:

🇺🇸 Hey Larson, by chance did you stay at a Holiday Inn over the weekend?🤔

 

NAW, he's banned from there