I think I found the problem:Fail to fire.. jacking out rounds.. 1873 short stroked 38 special

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

I’ve shot this as my main rifle quite a bit..

38 special 1.435 OAL with 125 grain TC bullet

Gun was built by Pioneer GunWorks.. It has Pioneer Gunworks Super Short Stroke kit in it and lightened brass carrier and all the other stuff they normally do to build a fast rifle..

I have a backup ‘73 built the same and switch between the two of them..

 

Last Sundays match on about the 3rd. Stage the last shot I jacked out a live round..

never done that before..

looked like a light primer strike..

I tightened the hammer spring about 1/4 turn..

 

Next stage.. cycled great.. but.. jacked out last two rounds.. light hammer strikes again..

I tightened the hammer spring another 1/2 turn..

No more jacked out rounds for the rest of the match..

 

Gonna tear it down for a deep cleaning tonight..

Looking for things to look for while I’m in there..

If the hammer spring is weak from use?? Will the 3/4 turn last very long?

Appreciate yer suggestions..

 

Thanks
Rance

 

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Time for a deep cleaning. 

Are you using the leaf type hammer spring?

If so, was it ground down at all? 

[El Sobrante Kid]

You may have already done this as it is always recommended, look at the tab on the bottom of the bolt to make sure it is not bent, and look at the extractor to make sure there is no crud built up underneath and to check its function. GL!

[Null N. Void]

Probably hammer spring worn out.  That's what happened to me.   Replaced the spring and it was back to normal.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

29 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

Probably hammer spring worn out.  That's what happened to me.   Replaced the spring and it was back to normal.

Being it’s Super Short Stroked do I need a special hammer spring or will a stock one suffice (work)?

 

I have never had the one in there out so I don’t know if it’s

been ground down. From what I can see it’s a leaf type.

 

The tab on the bottom of the bolt is good and the extractor is good.

They’ll extract a live round??

What would that have to do with light hammer strikes??

 

I think Null N.Void nailed it..
Thanks guys👍🏻

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

You're probably on the right track.  You tightened the strain screw but did you check that the main spring screw right behind it was still tight?

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Nope.. I’ll check it out tonight.. thanks..

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

You might want to just call Joe Alves at PGW since they built the gun. He’ll have better advice than any of us speculating on this forum. 
 

Good people to deal with. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Ummm, if you are intentionally trying to go faster recently, you could now be pulling trigger while the action is not quite closed.    Try running with this in your mind: "Lever closed, then trigger pull!"  I got to that point and had to work much harder to avoid what looked like light strikes, but they were just standard strikes while the action was finishing chambering the round, at that point, the FP cannot reach the primer solidly, so you get the minor dents on the primer.  good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

59 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Nope.. I’ll check it out tonight.. thanks..

Make sure you primers are seated below the case head.

Turn the hammer spring tension screw in 1/2 turn.

Check ALL screws for tightness.....

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Ummm, if you are intentionally trying to go faster recently, you could now be pulling trigger while the action is not quite closed.    Try running with this in your mind: "Lever closed, then trigger pull!"  I got to that point and had to work much harder to avoid what looked like light strikes, but they were just standard strikes while the action was finishing chambering the round, at that point, the FP cannot reach the primer solidly, so you get the minor dents on the primer.  good luck, GJ

I wish I could say I was going faster.. I ain’t ..

been shootin SASS matches since 2003 when I was 55.. I was my fastest 

in my early 60’s with the help of a guy by the name “Spur”..

He taught me correctly.. engrained me with good habits..

I’m 77 now.. ain’t as competitive now.. slowed down a lot..

Don’t think I’m outrunning the the lever.. but thanks for yer info

 

LG.. when I do my deep cleaning tonight are you saying turn the straining screw in another 1/2 turn? Already turned it in 3/4 turn..

 

Abilene.. already called Joe at Pioneer.. still waiting for a callback..

Still wondering if a standard Hammer Spring will work ok with the super short stroke..

Thanks for yer input guys..

 

I still think Null N. Void hit the nail on the head..

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

11 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Still wondering if a standard Hammer Spring will work ok with the super short stroke..

Yes and no.  It will work BUT the levering effort is going to be very heavy.  With a short stroke lightening the mainspring is part of the action work.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

38 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Yes and no.  It will work BUT the levering effort is going to be very heavy.  With a short stroke lightening the mainspring is part of the action work.

Thanks Larson.. 

[Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037]

If it only happens occasionally, and most rounds go bang, it's either bad reloads or hammer follow.

 

Check sear to hammer engagement.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

2 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

I wish I could say I was going faster.. I ain’t ..

 

My response was, in part:

Quote

if you are intentionally trying to go faster recently....

What part of the IF at the beginning of my statement did not come through the wire?   As is always true on any "help forum" - the responses depend upon exactly how much and how accurately you can tell someone a thousand miles away who does not see and hear you running the gun, enough info to spot your problem.  And often, you are telling folks only what you already know, not about the things you don't realize you are doing or are going on in the gun or ammo.  

 

Run a test - take 20 or 40 rounds, and intentionally run them slowly through your gun.  If you get no light strikes - then running at your normal match speed really is contributing to your light strikes - it's about you.  If you get one or two light strikes, it's about the gun - something in there slows down the firing pin strike.  Often it's hammer spring (mainspring), but it can ALSO often be due to:

* a dirty firing pin channel,

* a broken firing pin,

* a broken firing pin extension,

* the commonly mentioned weak mainspring,

* dirty gun,

* hammer dragging on the frame or even your thumb, 

* primers not fully seated (at this point in this list, everything I have mentioned I have had happen in my 73 rifles),

or even a bad lot of primers.  And there's many more potential root causes.   

 

So, although a weak mainspring is a very common "jump to" conclusion - I find it really does not happen very often unless you have had a gunsmith modify a spring to lighten it up beyond reasonable limits.

 

So, I don't trust just jumping to the conclusion you seem to be betting on.  Maybe it is right, maybe it's not  - and you will buy a part you don't need to replace (at this time).   I run '73 mainsprings for about 10 years (with 5,000 rounds fired a year) before I ever start to worry about them getting weak.   All I can really tell right now - you probably have not done enough diagnosis to really find the problem.

 

good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

I wish I could say I was going faster.. I ain’t ..

been shootin SASS matches since 2003 when I was 55.. I was my fastest 

in my early 60’s with the help of a guy by the name “Spur”..

He taught me correctly.. engrained me with good habits..

I’m 77 now.. ain’t as competitive now.. slowed down a lot..

Don’t think I’m outrunning the the lever.. but thanks for yer info

 

LG.. when I do my deep cleaning tonight are you saying turn the straining screw in another 1/2 turn? Already turned it in 3/4 turn..

 

Abilene.. already called Joe at Pioneer.. still waiting for a callback..

Still wondering if a standard Hammer Spring will work ok with the super short stroke..

Thanks for yer input guys..

 

I still think Null N. Void hit the nail on the head..

Did you still have FTF with the 3/4 turn?

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Garrison Joe..

Very sorry for jumping to conclusions because I always respect your input on gun problems.. I apologize..

[John Kloehr]

Yes, so now the question is to either:

 

Do a deep clean first, then try the gun slowly and carefully... Or try the gun first, but an occasional deep clean is a good idea. I'm for trying the gun slowly and carefully first.

 

And then the next question...

 

Do a deep clean and inspect the spring for wear before, after, or while calling PGW. I'm for doing the above careful non-race operations, and call PGW in the middle of the deep clean so parts can be double-checked if suggested. Then put it back together and try again.

 

I'm not a SASS expert, I am at best a self-certified YouTube gunsmith. I even bought the patch to prove it.

 

On edit: This post is a synthesis of what I see as multiple excellent suggestions posted above.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Did you still have FTF with the 3/4 turn?

Nope.. but I’m still gonna do the extra 1/2 turn you suggested..

 

I have the rifle torn apart now on my cleaning bench..

It’s only got about 3 maybe 4 matches on it since

last falls (that’s when our season ends here) deep cleaning which I do at the end of every season 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

20 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Nope.. but I’m still gonna do the extra 1/2 turn you suggested..

 

I have the rifle torn apart now on my cleaning bench..

It’s only got about 3 maybe 4 matches on it since

last falls (that’s when our season ends here) deep cleaning which I do at the end of every season 

Don't 'fix' what ain't broke. 

Go with a total of 3/4 turn and run it.....

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I also know by experience that once a leaf spring weakens, it usually continues to weaken with use.  So, I don't tighten strain screws except for a quick fix at a match - instead I replace with a new spring.   good luck, GJ

[Kid Rich]

I have two 38/357's smithed by the same guy the one that is a backup is used rarely and is in new condition. Never have that problem with the main match rifle but the backup would start giving me light strikes after 2-3 stages. After using it a few times I realized the mainspring screw was backing out a couple of turns. A little blue locktite took care of that.

kR

[Jack Spade]

Check and make sure your lever safety isn't hanging up and letting you pull the trigger as you are closing the lever.  This let's the hammer follow the bolt closed without enough force to dent the primer.  

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

OK.. complete tear down and deep cleaning last night.. finished up just now..

 

Upon tear down.. I was taking the bolt extension and bolt out.. normal..

Tipped the bolt up to remove firing pin.. it didn’t come out.. 

Tried it a few times to no avail.. finally straightened out a paper clip

and poked it out.. an extra piece came out with it..

Where the heck did this come from?? I’ve never seen it before..

that was probably effecting the firing pin travel.. duh 

upon inspecting the bolt and bolt extension I noticed a piece was missing 

on the tip of the keeper end of the bolt extension.. (Yep.. Garrison Joe called it)

Now I thought that extension was made out of a solid piece of steel..

It’s not..it’s two pieces… one piece of steel tube pressed over another

piece of steel Rod.. and then I guess milled to their specs.. (don’t pretend to know 

how they make them)

but that broken off piece.. I think.. was causing the problem..

I had a new spare  ‘73 bolt assembly and installed it after finishing all the other 

deep cleaning..

I also backed the hammer spring straining screw off that 3/4 turn.. back to original.. can always turn it back..

The hammer spring is leaf type and doesn’t looked like it’s been hour glassed to lighten it..

Gotta go shoot it now..

Thanks for your patience and time..👍🏻

Rance

 

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

Do you have time for a quick photo of the parts you mentioned?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

23 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Gun was built by Pioneer GunWorks.. It has Pioneer Gunworks Super Short Stroke kit in it and lightened brass carrier and all the other stuff they normally do to build a fast rifle..

 

1 hour ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Now I thought that extension was made out of a solid piece of steel..

It’s not..it’s two pieces… one piece of steel tube pressed over another

Pioneer use to make a hollow firing pin extension with the ends pressed in and people had similar failures.  Not sure if they still make them.  The factory extensions are solid.

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

That’s good to know Larsen

It’s got a new Taylors bolt and extension in it now.…

.009” headspace

Just need to go out and shoot it to check it out

also deep cleaned my back up ‘73.. I’ll shoot it too..

Thanks.. that’s good information 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

1 hour ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said:

Do you have time for a quick photo of the parts you mentioned?

Sorry.. nope..

On the VTI gun parts exploded view for Uberti rifles it’s 

part # 67.. the end that goes against firing pin..

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I'm thinking out loud here, but if the failed extension was hollow then it was probably to reduce mass, and a stock part with more mass may need a little stronger hammer hit for the same power to the firing pin.  Additionally, the old bolt may have had a reduced power firing pin return spring as well.  So hopefully it will work fine with the strain screw back to where it started but don't get discouraged if you have to screw it back in a tad.  Good luck and keep us informed.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

 

Pioneer use to make a hollow firing pin extension with the ends pressed in and people had similar failures.  Not sure if they still make them.  The factory extensions are solid.

I put one of those that I bought about 3 years ago in an older model ‘73 .44-40. I too was having intermittent FTF. On inspection I found it was binding a bit, so I chucked it in my drill press and polished it with emory paper until it moved freely. 

I’ll file Rance’s experience in my head in case I run into a similar problem. 
 

[Rance - SASS # 54090]

Just got back from testing firing both rifles..

the problem child (Pioneer Gunworks) rifle

worked great with no jacked out rounds..

and with the hammer screw backed out to original place..

My backup ‘73 was built by Griners out west..

I had him build it with the Pioneer Super short stroke..

It worked perfectly too.. 

It actually levers easier than the problem child..

I had a fellow cowpoke there that can shoot and cycle

the rifles a heck of a lot faster than me…

I had him run thru 10 rounds twice in each rifle..

No fail to fires in his 40 rounds and my 40 rounds.. 👍🏻

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yep, I put one of those light firing pin extensions in my WB rifle.  It lasted 2 years, then the front end of the FPE broke apart during a match, about 8 months ago.  Symptoms - one or two light strikes per 10 rounds.  A small steel chunk about the size of a BB shot broke off and bounced around between the remaining part of the FPE and the large end of the firing pin or, when it did not fire, the broken piece slammed against the bolt.

 

You can spot a hollow FPE due to it's weight is half normal, and one end has been bored out for most of the length, and a press fitting slug of steel has been presssed in and profiled to the rest of the pin surface.   So, a slight ring shows in the end that has been bored out. 

 

No, I don't have it still to show you all a picture, but I will NEVER use a hollowed out FPE again.  good luck, GJ  

[Kid Rich]

I have one of those fp extensions that is made that way. The end split on it and would not move freely in the back of the bolt so it had to be replaced.

kR

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Here is another firng pin extension that looked great in concept but did not work - the titanium firing pin extension.  If you levered slow it worked fine.  However when levering fast the gun would on occasion unexpectedly freeze up.  Seems the titanium was galling in the steel receiver and would periodically lock up the gun.  Another item in my things that did not work as expected box.

 

[Dusty Devil Dale]

I have had a similar problem of jacking out light-struck rounds, usually on three 9th or 10th round of a rifle string.   My FPE is stock and solid.  Hammer spring is new, stock, and tensioned more firmly than I would like.  Gun is deep cleaned after every match. 

I believe the hammer fall is still sluggish enough that I am able to open the bolt slightly before the firing pin reacts --essentially a slight OBD.  That open bolt (microns longer geometry) causes the light primer hits.

 I tried a new fp, fp return spring, and thoroughly cleaned out the fp base relief  boring in the bolt, to remove any residue precluding full fp travel.  But my problem persisted.

Most recently I filed down the height of the lever safety tang about 25%  to force me to keep the lever in full battery while the trigger is pulled.  That seems to have cured the problem -- which really turns out to be pilot error.  I had noticed, through all of my gunsmithing corrective measures, the rifle always fired perfectly in rapid-fire testing, but the problem returned in matches.  It was that timer beep that caused the pilot error problem.  I'm working on MY timing now.  Not yet faultless, but improving.  The upside is my rifle reload time has definitely improved with practice.