How many of you have read...really READ... the Declaration of Independence?

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

I have a few times, but not in the last 45-50 years....until yesterday.

 

I read it with the idea of what corresponds to today's situation in this country, what the founders were trying to express and what has been violated ever since the document was first published.  Start with "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" and the other non-defined rights.  What?  THEY ARE THERE!

 

Go on to what they are damning that has been done by the King of England and his minions and look for similar things that are happening in our own government today.

 

Take your time, change a word here or there to Americanize the titles, name of offices, and who is destroying our lives today.

 

Do this and realize that we have let this happen because we have allowed it to happen...way too often because we didn't understand, didn't believe it was happening, and way too often because we just didn't think it effected us enough to bother with.  "Let George do it" runs deeply though our society, right up there with "my vote / opinion won't matter" and "I don't want to get in trouble over this".

 

Do this and let me know what you think.  Don't hold back.  You won't hurt my feelings, offend me, or change my mind.  Just remember , if we don't take a stand against these infringements we forfeit our rights to bitch about it.

 

I'm going to put my soapbox away now and go make some lunch.

 

BTW, next lesson is on the Bill of Rights.

[Sixgun Seamus]

And when you have read it, pay close attention to the closing words.

 

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

 

Ask yourself, would you be willing to give up everything for your freedom and the freedom of your countrymen. They did.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Good question.  There was a time when I would have answered yes, but I'm too old and crippled up now to do it.

 

Okay, I'll admit I'm part of the problem these days.

[watab kid]

i have a copy right here as well as a list of amendments , im a constitutionalist first 

[WD Farren]

Bill O'Reilly has a book in his "Killing" series:  Killing England.
It goes into great detail about the brutal struggle for independence from England.

This is a far deeper dive into history than one gets in public school.

 

[Texas Lizard]

27 minutes ago, bgavin said:

Bill O'Reilly has a book in his "Killing" series:  Killing England.
It goes into great detail about the brutal struggle for independence from England.

This is a far deeper dive into history than one gets in public school.

I wonder if schools would ever go that deep into and teach it that way???

27 minutes ago, bgavin said:

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

I read it last year about this time. Along with the Constitution.  And some of the southern states articles of secession. And Bryan's "Cross of Gold" speech. 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

3 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

And when you have read it, pay close attention to the closing words.

 

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

 

Ask yourself, would you be willing to give up everything for your freedom and the freedom of your countrymen. They did.

I was a faithful follower of Rush Limbaugh until his death. I know that some here didn't like him, but that's not why I mention it. Every year for the Fourth of July, he would read an address written by his father on what the founders risked and lost. He called it, " The Americans Who Risked Everything". It's too long to post here in its entirety, but here is a link to it.

https://www.101bananas.com/library2/limbaugh.html

[Pat Riot]

10 hours ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

And when you have read it, pay close attention to the closing words.

 

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

 

Ask yourself, would you be willing to give up everything for your freedom and the freedom of your countrymen. They did.

I would. 
 

 

I do not say that lightly. 
 

I guess I kind of did. I joined the Navy at 18. I tried to do it again after 911, but I was too old. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

7 hours ago, Texas Lizard said:

I wonder if schools would ever go that deep into and teach it that way???

 

They don't seem to go that deep into anything.  It's why I quit teaching.

[WD Farren]

Here in CA, public school amounts to "ties own shoes, plays well with other children."

 

A few years back, I was in a public school classroom doing IT support and got to witness an 8th grade punk terrorizing his teacher.
She rolled over, when she should have called the PE teacher to come in with a ping-pong paddle and pound his ass with it.

 

When I was a student in Idaho, this is exactly what happened.

One of the big football linebacker kids got mouthy, and the wrestling coach stepped in.
He hauled that big jerk down right in the middle of the hall and beat his ass with that paddle.

 

Here in CA, either home school or private school.
Public school is nothing more than hard Left indoctrination by hard left teachers who are members of the hard Left teacher's union.

 

 

[Trailrider #896]

I have just finished reading "Common Sense" by Thomas Paine.  He was, of course advocating for separation from England, which happened about six months later. Much of what he was advocating was included in the Declaration. Fascinating read! 

[watab kid]

On 7/7/2025 at 12:18 AM, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

I was a faithful follower of Rush Limbaugh until his death. I know that some here didn't like him, but that's not why I mention it. Every year for the Fourth of July, he would read an address written by his father on what the founders risked and lost. He called it, " The Americans Who Risked Everything". It's too long to post here in its entirety, but here is a link to it.

https://www.101bananas.com/library2/limbaugh.html

i also was a faithful follower of his from the first to the last , i turned on my radio on the 4th going to open the gunrange for our shortened day and heard this [rebroadcast on local station] and for just a moment there i was back in time hearing the wisdom he imparted , i miss that a lot , 

 

this piece was one of my favorites of his 4th traditions , i also liked that he played Manheim steamroller over the Christmas holidays , 

[Doc Shapiro]

And the Federalist Papers.  And the Constitution.  So yes.  I can raise my hand.

13 hours ago, bgavin said:

Here in CA, public school amounts to "ties own shoes, plays well with other children."

 

A few years back, I was in a public school classroom doing IT support and got to witness an 8th grade punk terrorizing his teacher.
She rolled over, when she should have called the PE teacher to come in with a ping-pong paddle and pound his ass with it.

 

When I was a student in Idaho, this is exactly what happened.

One of the big football linebacker kids got mouthy, and the wrestling coach stepped in.
He hauled that big jerk down right in the middle of the hall and beat his ass with that paddle.

 

Here in CA, either home school or private school.
Public school is nothing more than hard Left indoctrination by hard left teachers who are members of the hard Left teacher's union.

 

 

I had to deprogram my kids.  I'm really proud of them.  They came out well.

[watab kid]

2 hours ago, Doc Shapiro said:

And the Federalist Papers.  And the Constitution.  So yes.  I can raise my hand.

I had to deprogram my kids.  I'm really proud of them.  They came out well.

mine did as well - very well , im watching my grandkids and so far ill stack them up in the best column and they all know i dont give favors nor award less than their best , they dont have to be perfect but they have to meet the parameters of known ability ....we know their abilities , 

i have 6 , one in an elate college here , two in high school and three in grade/middle school - all doing well so far 

[Sedalia Dave]

When you set out to read our founding documents, you have to work really hard to find it online where the text hasn't been altered. I have run into this over and over even on official US Government web sites. 

 

I will say it is well worth researching the documents that paved the way for many of the amendments to our constitution. Provides a lot of insight as to what was intended vs what actually made it into the text of the amendment.

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

When you set out to read our founding documents, you have to work really hard to find it online where the text hasn't been altered.

How have they been altered?

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

An interesting twist to the founding documents is the Articles of Confederation.   Why?  Well, consider the following...

Article VI, paragraph 1 of the Constitution says...

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

Now, that's pretty straightforward.  In a nutshell, it says that anything the United States bound itself too under the Confederation, is still bound to it under the Constitution.

Now this is where it get's interesting.

The opening paragraph of the Articles, the preamble, I guess, reads...

To all to whom these Presents shall come, we, the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting. Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America in Congress assembled did on the fifteenth day of November in the year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of Newhampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhodeisland and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia in the Words following, viz. “Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of Newhampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhodeisland and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia.

The key words for this post are "perpetual Union."

The union was created under the Confederation.  The Constitution made it better.  "More perfect."  But more than that, the union created was a perpetual one.  That is to say, a Union that would last forever, that it was incapable of being broken.  This is what the States agreed to.  So, this agreement to perpetual Union was carried over to the government formed under the Constitution.  In other words, the Union can not be dissolved.  Nor can any state leave the Union.

Take it for what it's worth.  

And I am not the first person to raise the idea that all of this is so and that the "perpetual Union" phrase in the Confederation is binding on the Constitution, consider the words of a fellow named Abraham Lincoln in his first inaugural address...

Descending from these general principles, we find the proposition that in legal contemplation the Union is perpetual confirmed by the history of the Union itself. The Union is much older than the Constitution. It was formed, in fact, by the Articles of Association in 1774. It was matured and continued by the Declaration of Independence in 1776. It was further matured, and the faith of all the then thirteen States expressly plighted and engaged that it should be perpetual, by the Articles of Confederation in 1778. And finally, in 1787, one of the declared objects for ordaining and establishing the Constitution was "to form a more perfect Union."

 

Makes you think, does it not?

[Sedalia Dave]

23 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

How have they been altered?

 

Most recent example was the text of Part one of the 14th Amendment. The part I underlined was missing on many .gov websites.  Without that one part the meaning is drastically changed.

 

Quote

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

 

I also found it hard to find exact transcriptions of the Civil Rights act of 1868. Most websites only included summaries or had an illegible picture of the hand written act. The Civil Rights act of 1868 was the precursor to the 14th amendment.

 

Quote

Be it enacted . . . , That all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States; and such citizens, of every race and color, without regard to any previous condition of slavery or involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall have the same right, in every State and Territory in the United States, to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, and give evidence, to inherit, purchase, lease, sell, hold, and convey real and personal property, and to full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of person and property, as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, and penalties, and to none other, any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, to the contrary notwithstanding.

 

How Civil Rights evolved in post Civil War America can be rather interesting.

 

[Dubious Don #56333]

On 7/6/2025 at 6:56 PM, Sixgun Seamus said:

And when you have read it, pay close attention to the closing words.

 

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

 

Ask yourself, would you be willing to give up everything for your freedom and the freedom of your countrymen. They did.

 This.

I have this Marine friend. He eschews "comfort seekers". But he's the one moving to "Rural America" when he retires. Can't say I blame him, this city we live in is like all the others. And getting worse every day. Me, I'm staying put. As much as I thought I wanted the rural life, I find this City alluring. Been home for as long as I've been alive. It's home. Everything I need is right here.

 

I no longer watch TV news. I seldom watch "network TV" at all. I'm a fan of MeTv which pretty much shows anything 60-70-80's. Or H&I, Heroes & Icons. Older shows mostly, usually with a military/cop thing going. Like a show about Vietnam made in the 80's, Tour of Duty. And the sort of corny show about Pappy Boyington, Black Sheep Squadron. I use it mostly for background noise. Helps with my tinnitus. (and other little quirks I got, LOL) When I want entertainment I'll put in a DVD.  While there are some series I watch, Blue Bloods, Chicago Fire, I'm simply too busy with other stuff to spend a lot of time JUST watching the tube. And I'm retired. GO figure LOL.

 

So.

Yes. I've read the Declaration. All the way through. And the Constitution.

 

I love my Country. I've literally written the check in blood that I'd fight and die for Her. And I'm still serving. And I tell you, this is NOT the America I grew up in. Oh, there's some big, bright shining stars of hope out there, but I'm speaking specifically about the main "what's wrong".

 

No. None of you are wrong, off base or any other thing. Things are screwby.

 

Within a week, I've watched a fight within our government where the half dozen "individuals" who had an opinion one way. six, seven months ago, or proclaimed the files were on their desk, or we're going to get to the bottom of this ALL pretty much in lockstep said recently; We investigated and there's no list. Nothing there. Nothing to see. Move along. Like they made the quickest U turn ever. That's it? They're not even going to prosecute ANYONE? Except for that gal they busted couple years ago, had a quiet trial and zippp...off to prison she went. So if there's nothing there, why is SHE still in the jug?????!!!!!??????

 

Anybody else thinks that's REALLY out of character for ANY of those people? Not to mention really freaking weird?!??

 

By the way.

Anybody actually understand what happened the last administration? If we're to believe, it wasn't you-know-who, you know, that "elected" guy to the big White House on the Potomac running things but a bunch of staffers since that guy was out to lunch. So to speak. That was so wrong on so many levels and it appears...nothing to be done. And that's just ONE thing out of dozens and dozens of wrongness.

So.

What does ANY of the above have to do with the original question?

EVERYTHING. What our Country has endured these last eight years would NOT have been tolerated 250 years ago.

 

 

[Subdeacon Joe]

4 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

So, this agreement to perpetual Union was carried over to the government formed under the Constitution.  In other words, the Union can not be dissolved.  Nor can any state leave the Union.

Take it for what it's worth.  

 

Whereas many, myself included, say that the writers of our Constitution saw the folly of that and internationally left out "perpetual," then reinforced it with the 10th Amendment. 

Witness that 3 times New England states threatened secession,  and there was no talk about it being treason,  unconstitutional, or illegal.  Jefferson said, "the several states who formed that instrument (the U.S. Constitution), being sovereign and independent, have the unquestionable right to judge of its infraction…” That is, secession is an inherent right and the states themselves ought to have sovereignty over the decision to secede. John Quincy Adams opined "the people of each state in the Union a right to secede from the confederated Union itself.”  

 

5 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

How have they been altered?

 

As pointed out by  @Sedalia Dave above, clauses are left out here and there.   But, worse is when the entire thing is subtly reworked into "modern language" to supposedly make it more understandable, but presented as being the original text. Those are usually on various .Gov lesson plans and aimed at students.   

[John Kloehr]

I have really read the docs, though many many years since I read the Articles of Confederation. Interesting point above about the origin of "more perfect union" referencing the Articles, this is an insight I never had.

 

As to the drifting discussion on the 14th and citizenship, I recently read a very long and thorough research paper. It seemed to start out advocating for children of border jumpers included, but by the end the document fairly pointed out a problem with the text and legislative intent, there were no immigration laws at the time of establishing the 14th.

 

Specifically, the text and even the debates around it may not be fairly interpreted as including these births as covered, as this was not a topic or issue in any of the discussions at the time. The text (per this research paper) does strongly support the current popular interpretation of "subject to the jurisdiction" based on simple dictionary definitions from the time but no clear legislative intent can be drawn from the debates about it. Illegal border crossing was not a part of the history or tradition from the time.

 

At the time, and from long tradition, diplomats and their families and servants were not "subject to the jurisdiction." The US added "indians not taxed." Would the legislature have added some phrase like "proper immigrants" if entry required documentation? This was not added, nor was it discussed; A small number of out-of-context quotes do not apply to this question, it was never part of the conversation.

 

For what was argued (other documents, not the one discussed above), the 14th is arguably racist. By codifying birthright citizenship, it did not so much provide freed slaves the right to vote, it was more a tool to push the vote out another generation to the future children of those freed slaves. To those who had documentation of birth in the US.

 

From these other sources, escaped slaves did not just run north to free states, they also ran to Mexico. In Mexico, some married and had children. After the Civil War, many came back to the US. So did other blacks who had not been slaves. Along with their families. Would these people vote? Generally not, it was their future children who would get birthright citizenship.

 

And all of this before there was an immigration law in any form. I withhold discussion of the problems with these as they come later after the founding, other than stating some of them still have long-lasting challenges.

[WD Farren]

We stay put behind enemy lines in CA for several reasons.

 

First, it is FAR less expensive for us to stay in our paid-off home with (relative) low taxes.
We have two daughters and three grand children here.

I do NOT like hot and humid weather found elsewhere.

 

If I up and moved us to Prescott, AZ we would find $800k housing and corresponding property taxes.
I will eventually drop dead, leaving my wife stranded 1,600 miles from our daughters and friends.

 

She would like to move back to Connellsville, PA circa 1957.
The Connellsville of today is a crime and drug infested ghost town.
So that ain't happening...

 

Moving simply isn't in the cards for us at my age.

 

 

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, bgavin said:

We stay put behind enemy lines in CA for several reasons.

I know many who are trapped by interest rates. Not just in CA but across the nation. Congrats on having no mortgage, many who still have loans are currently paying 2 to 3% interest. Selling, moving, and buying a comparable home elsewhere could double their mortgage payment as 5% is about the best available rate today.

 

In many places, lack of inventory is due simply to owners who can not afford to sell.

[Alpo]

I read this years ago. I'm thinking it was probably Reader's Digest, Life in These United States. Wouldn't swear to where I read it though.

 

Elementary School class. Fourth, maybe 5th grade. And they're doing history and talking about the revolution. The teacher passes out a copy of the Declaration of Independence.

 

It's going around the room. Most kids just glanced at it then pass it behind. It gets to this one little boy. And he read it.

 

And when he got it read all the way through, and read the signatures, he picked up his pencil and he signed it. Then he handed it to the kid behind him.

[watab kid]

been an interesting read guys and gals , this is a topic to discus at length as its been so obscured by legal maneuvers throughout the years , im glad to see we here are thinking and reading and understanding what it is really - a superb document that was well thought outat the time modified only with all the care that was originally applied to its creation , 

 

i see revisions coming in the judicial branch soon as they have overstepped what the constitution allows for political purposes , my faith in that system has drastically diminished but i believe it will right itself soon