Scarlett Posted June 4 Posted June 4 6 hours ago, Erasmus said: APP (shooters world most often for me) does seem to clump pretty bad, but I just shake up the bottle Shooter World Multi Black is shipped in bulk to their facility in SC which is more humid than CO. That is probably why you have some clumping. The clumping does NOT negatively impact the performance. Hugs! Scarlett 2 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted June 4 Author Posted June 4 10 hours ago, Judah MacAbee SASS #64095 Life said: Dave Come talk to me at Rio on Saturday. I use it as does Superstition Slim and others. I've switched to it for my cowboy guns from 2F BP. There's plenty of smoke although I miss the flames and that special BP sound. BUT clean up is ridiculously easy. I'll be there! 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted June 4 Author Posted June 4 4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: Scheels sells Shooters World Black. Last time I was at Scheels all I saw was Pyrodex and that hideously expensive Blackthorn stuff. They do have LOTS of caps, though, including Remington #11s! 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted June 4 Author Posted June 4 23 minutes ago, Scarlett said: Shooter World Multi Black is shipped in bulk to their facility in SC which is more humid than CO. That is probably why you have some clumping. The clumping does NOT negatively impact the performance. Hugs! Scarlett Humidity down here in the Desert Southwest really isn't a problem, unless it's monsoon season! Quote
Griff Posted June 4 Posted June 4 I guess I'll be the damp rag thrown on the flames of fun. Adding non-consumibles in the form of glitter, confetti, powdered chalk, etc. to your shotshells is great fun until it gets blown back into the eyes and airways of the posse & spectators. On the subject of BP... refrain from its use during the height of fire season. Have a thought or two about the proximity and condition of the grass on your range. Even green grass can catch fire and spread quickly. 2ndly, BP does not NEED compression. It produces more consistent & lower SDs in straight walled cartridges under light compression, but can become compacted and act as a obstruction in bottle-necked cartridges. There are no "hard-n-fast" rules to loading BP cartridges, I've been shooting BP in my rifles since mid-1986 and have never compressed a load. I've used from as low as 25 grain of 2f to as much as 35 of Goex "Cartridge". The one thing I like about APP is that I can shoot coated, plain, or smokeless lubed bullets. 3 2 Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted June 4 Posted June 4 11 hours ago, Texas Maverick said: Dave, do you dip or use the powder bushing? If bushing which one do you have? I tried to see what bushings I have and how much they drop and the 26 drops around 30 grns and the next size I have is a 42. I am guessing I need around a 28 or 29 to get 35 grns on my MEC 9000G. I am also using 7/8 oz of shot and AA hulls with the Cheddite primers. I have the CB0178 and CB1100 so can go with either to make a good load and crimp. TM I use an adjustable charge bar. A MEC #37 bushing should get you 35 grains by weight (3 cc) of 3F APP 2 Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted June 4 Posted June 4 I only shoot real BP at big matches. For monthly matches I shoot APP. Here are some photos from the 2023 MS State. Fire and Fall Back shooting Frontiersman Some Pics of me. shooting Frontiersman This photo was taken at Trailhead I was standing in full sun shooting my 87 with 60 grains of real BP and 1 oz of shot. APP is fun but it's awfully hard to beat the BOOM, smoke and flames of real BP 8 Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted June 4 Posted June 4 (edited) Difference between APP and Real BP APP 38 specials 3 cc under 7/8 oz of shot Real BP 44 C&B with 25 grains by vol. .357 heavily compressed loads 147 gr bullet 4 CC under 1 oz of shot Edited June 4 by Sedalia Dave 5 1 Quote
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted June 4 Posted June 4 4 hours ago, Scarlett said: Better yet, go to my website and place your order. Bullets By Scarlett is a distributor for American Pioneer Powder AND Shooter’s World (smokeless & BP substitute). I’m also a SASS affiliated Merchant. I shop a lot of places but for cowboy… I start and stay “local” Hugs! Scarlett I second that and highly recommend buying from Scarlett ❤️. APP website for FYI only. 2 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted June 4 Author Posted June 4 (edited) Nice! I will say fire danger at the range we shoot at is very minimal, minimal vegetation. The range I shoot at regularly is about the same. Edited June 4 by Dapper Dave 1 Quote
Rooster Ron Wayne Posted June 4 Posted June 4 I switched to using APP about 10 or 12 years ago. Simple to use . Simple to clean. Simple to get . Simple to load . What more do you need . It's makes shooting BP Simple. Rooster 4 1 Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted June 4 Posted June 4 I used to get real black from this guy, decent prices and fast delivery https://powderinc.com/ 2 Quote
Nickle Posted June 4 Posted June 4 11 hours ago, Griff said: I guess I'll be the damp rag thrown on the flames of fun. Adding non-consumibles in the form of glitter, confetti, powdered chalk, etc. to your shotshells is great fun until it gets blown back into the eyes and airways of the posse & spectators. On the subject of BP... refrain from its use during the height of fire season. Have a thought or two about the proximity and condition of the grass on your range. Even green grass can catch fire and spread quickly. 2ndly, BP does not NEED compression. It produces more consistent & lower SDs in straight walled cartridges under light compression, but can become compacted and act as a obstruction in bottle-necked cartridges. There are no "hard-n-fast" rules to loading BP cartridges, I've been shooting BP in my rifles since mid-1986 and have never compressed a load. I've used from as low as 25 grain of 2f to as much as 35 of Goex "Cartridge". The one thing I like about APP is that I can shoot coated, plain, or smokeless lubed bullets. The original 303 British load was 71.5 grains of black powder behind a 215 grain bullet. Try to duplicate this load yourself. They somehow compressed this load way more than what a normal handloader can do. Quote
Griff Posted June 4 Posted June 4 1 hour ago, Nickle said: The original 303 British load was 71.5 grains of black powder behind a 215 grain bullet. Try to duplicate this load yourself. They somehow compressed this load way more than what a normal handloader can do. Hmmm... I think I said: "...there are no 'hard-n-fast' rules with loading BP. I don't shoot any foreign cartridges.... I only know that in the .30-30 BP doesn't work well in BP form, some feel due to small bore size, others because of the bottleneck design. I know from my own .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck that any compression at all increases group size, SD #s. It is problematic as the relatively short neck and although relatively shallow, the shoulder angle doesn't allow even compression over the whole powder stack. Conversely, the Winchester .32Special was offered as a smokeless round that was easily reloaded with BP. Wait.... I think I said... "there are no 'hard-n-fast' rules with loading BP. 1 Quote
Nickle Posted June 4 Posted June 4 1 hour ago, Griff said: Hmmm... I think I said: "...there are no 'hard-n-fast' rules with loading BP. I don't shoot any foreign cartridges.... I only know that in the .30-30 BP doesn't work well in BP form, some feel due to small bore size, others because of the bottleneck design. I know from my own .40-90 Sharps Bottle Neck that any compression at all increases group size, SD #s. It is problematic as the relatively short neck and although relatively shallow, the shoulder angle doesn't allow even compression over the whole powder stack. Conversely, the Winchester .32Special was offered as a smokeless round that was easily reloaded with BP. Wait.... I think I said... "there are no 'hard-n-fast' rules with loading BP. I used to load 40/90 bn. It was a 1875 c.sharps arms that I got in trade but it was so many years ago I can't remember the particulars of it. I will say in general though that every black powder cartridge gun I ever had shot better for me with less than a full load of black powder and cream of wheat as a filler. After watching that guy on everything black powder. Im not to worried about over compression anymore LOL Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted June 4 Posted June 4 I guess it needs repeating again but when it comes to measuring BP especially when it comes to the amount of powder in historic cartridges There never was and never will be a standardized method for measuring Black Powder by "volume grains". Currently there are only 2 standardized measurements for powder. For weight it is Grains For Volume it is Cubic Centimeters If you were to take 1 cc of every currently manufactured Black Powder of a particular grade and weigh them; you would discover that the actual weight would vary. In some cases by several grains. Throw in the fact that case volume varies considerably depending on how the case is constructed and that there is NO way to say definitively how Black Powder was measured prior to 1900 for any given cartridge; attempting to duplicate any historical cartridges' load is an exercise in futility. 4 1 Quote
Texas Maverick Posted June 5 Posted June 5 20 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: I use an adjustable charge bar. A MEC #37 bushing should get you 35 grains by weight (3 cc) of 3F APP I hope that is a typo. I think a #37 would be a lot more than 35 grains if my #26 throws 30 grains. I plan on trying either a #28 or #29 next to see what it throws. TM Quote
Diamond Jake Posted June 5 Posted June 5 5 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: I guess it needs repeating ... If you were to take 1 cc of every currently manufactured Black Powder of a particular grade and weigh them; you would discover that the actual weight would vary. In some cases by several grains. Amen. I recently emptied a can of Goex while halfway through a batch of fifty 40-65 WCF. I opened a new can, same Goex granulation but a different lot number. I checked the weight of a measured load and the new lot was noticeably heavier, about a grain or two. The loaded rounds didn't change the point of impact at the 200 yard range we shoot at our club, so I didn't bother to work a new load. 1 Quote
Erasmus Posted June 5 Posted June 5 While you can't say with any certainty how much 1cc of any given black powder will weigh; I've found that between Swiss 2F, Goex 2F, and Schuetzen 2F it's all close enough to 15 that I just call it 15 grains. I weigh my charges for long range to ensure consistency however. Quote
Nickle Posted June 5 Posted June 5 7 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: I guess it needs repeating again but when it comes to measuring BP especially when it comes to the amount of powder in historic cartridges There never was and never will be a standardized method for measuring Black Powder by "volume grains". Currently there are only 2 standardized measurements for powder. For weight it is Grains For Volume it is Cubic Centimeters If you were to take 1 cc of every currently manufactured Black Powder of a particular grade and weigh them; you would discover that the actual weight would vary. In some cases by several grains. Throw in the fact that case volume varies considerably depending on how the case is constructed and that there is NO way to say definitively how Black Powder was measured prior to 1900 for any given cartridge; attempting to duplicate any historical cartridges' load is an exercise in futility. Black powder has been probable getting better for centuries. That's why bore sizes have been getting smaller. Better powder less fouling. If I remember right the French were ahead of the British in powder. So yeah 18th century different than 19th. More purified ingredients, better process but I'm guessing a 45/70 loaded by volume wouldn't be much different today as years ago. Quote
watab kid Posted June 5 Posted June 5 FWIW , i only shoot scatrletts bullets and i have her APP for the loads i use it for , mostly i shoot smokeless but im tending to the darkside in some moments of fun 3 Quote
PrairieDogPete Posted June 6 Posted June 6 On 6/3/2025 at 10:20 AM, Scarlett said: I live in a humid climate - SC and store my APP in a concrete building, my van and in climate controlled shop. I have not had ANY issues with clumping… my shop is in my home so I don’t have a ton of space to store a lot. I will get some from the van or my building if I run out in my shop and it’s fine. The guys at the plant in Colorado are diligent about packaging. They won’t package when it’s raining/damp in an effort to prevent the clumping. As long as it’s stored sealed, it should last a long time. If it does clump, you can use a long screw driver to break it up with no ill effects on the powder performance. Hugs! Scarlett I got a free bottle of powder from my local gun runner that was unopened. It was very old and when I opened it, it was one huge clump of powder. I used a screwdriver and sports drink mixing bottle before loading my powder measure. Everything came out and worked great. 2 Quote
Dallas McBoomboom Posted June 6 Posted June 6 27 minutes ago, PrairieDogPete said: I got a free bottle of powder from my local gun runner that was unopened. It was very old and when I opened it, it was one huge clump of powder. I used a screwdriver and sports drink mixing bottle before loading my powder measure. Everything came out and worked great. BP can be 100 years old, get wet, get clumpy, whatever; dry it out, bust up the clumps, it's still more likely to go boom than not. 2 1 Quote
Scarlett Posted June 6 Posted June 6 On 6/3/2025 at 11:19 AM, Texas Maverick said: I am also using 7/8 oz of shot and AA hulls with the Cheddite primers I use 42 gr by weight, nitro card, fiber wad, 1 1/8 +/- ounces of shot (#9 preferred) overshot card and roll crimp. I use more powder than necessary because I don’t want anyone to question me… I use that much shot because with #9s that’s lots more pellets going downrange and HOPEFULLY enough pellets will knock the SG targets down in one shot. Make ups cost too much time. There not any more/less recoil that I notice…but I haven’t had but one SG makeup in the last 6-8 weeks of matches. Hugs & SMOKE! 😉🥰 Scarlett 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted June 6 Author Posted June 6 (edited) On 6/3/2025 at 12:12 PM, Sedalia Dave said: According to APP's website the below stores carry it in Arizona. WES GRIFFEN GUNS & RELOADING 2712 CAMINO DEL RIO BULLHEAD CITY, AZ 86442 Phone: 928-758-3135 SMOKE-N-GUNS 322 S. MAIN STREET COTTONWOOD, AZ 86326 Phone: 928-634-3216 CABELA'S 9380 W. GLENDALE AVE. GLENDALE, AZ 85305 Phone: 623-872-6700 GUNTOWN 4520 BANKS ST. KINGMAN, AZ 86401 ON TARGET ENTERPRISES 1417 JEFFERSON KINGMAN, AZ 86401 Phone: 520-753-4314 MOUNTAIN MAN AZ 617 N DELMAR MESA, AZ 85203 DIAMOND POINT GUNS HC 5, BOX 81F, 7 UNION PAYSON, AZ 85541 Phone: 520-474-5345 BECE BUSINESS SERVICES 14009 N. 21ST PLACE PHOENIX, AZ 85022 HUNTERS PARADISE 481 S. MAIN SNOWFLAKE, AZ 85937 Phone: 928-536-3343 CHEROKEE JACKS 1108 E FREEMONT TOMBSTONE, AZ 85638 Phone: 520-457-3616 B-B Guns 3521 E. NIGHTINGGALE PL. TUCSON, AZ 85739 LOCK & LOAD 2563 N. CAMPBELL TUCSON, AZ 85719 Phone: 520-325-8990 THUNDER STICK TRADING 1125 N. JEFFERSON AVENUE TUCSON, AZ 85712 Phone: 520-290-8599 APP needs to update their website - Cabela's is now BassPro and they do not carry APP. Also, the Mountain Man in Mesa is a single family home, and it's for sale. Same thing with Becce, and they also no longer exist. I don't go back to the town of my birth very much, (Tucson), usually up into The Valley for what I need. Edited June 6 by Dapper Dave Computer error quadruple tapped this reply - darn tootin' I'm blamin' the consarned thang! 1 Quote
Dapper Dave Posted June 6 Author Posted June 6 (edited) Somehow the computer quadruple tapped this reply...so here is a picture to lighten your day. Edited June 6 by Dapper Dave Quote
Kid Rich Posted June 6 Posted June 6 9 hours ago, Dallas McBoomboom said: BP can be 100 years old, get wet, get clumpy, whatever; dry it out, bust up the clumps, it's still more likely to go boom than not. App is a substitute for BP. BP can be wet dried out and function just fine, APP probably not. kR 2 Quote
Dallas McBoomboom Posted June 6 Posted June 6 2 minutes ago, Kid Rich said: App is a substitute for BP. BP can be wet dried out and function just fine, APP probably not. kR I sure wouldn't think so. I've not got much experience with subs, so I don't really know. 1 Quote
Erasmus Posted June 6 Posted June 6 5 hours ago, Dallas McBoomboom said: I sure wouldn't think so. I've not got much experience with subs, so I don't really know. This is an absolute aside from this thread but, this got me to wondering about the composition of these things (and the original question is well answered at this point) APP is (according to the MSDS) - and is not self igniting Potassium Nitrate Potassium Perchlorate Charcoal Pyrodex is (according to the MSDS) - has an auto ignition temp of 740F Charcoal Sulfer Potassium Nitrate Potassium Perchlorate Graphite Goex is (according to the MSDS and as expected for being real black) - has an auto ignition temp of 392 - 867F Charcoal Sulfur Potassium Nitrate APP is fully miscible in water, Goex has 'good' solubility in water, and Pyrodex is partially soluble in water. I'm not a chemist, but I find this interesting. 1 Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted June 6 Posted June 6 On 6/4/2025 at 7:01 PM, Texas Maverick said: I hope that is a typo. I think a #37 would be a lot more than 35 grains if my #26 throws 30 grains. I plan on trying either a #28 or #29 next to see what it throws. TM Capt Baylor's Conversion Chart BP Conversion Sheet (revised December 2012).pdf Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted June 6 Posted June 6 2 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: Capt Baylor's Conversion Chart BP Conversion Sheet (revised December 2012).pdf 337.59 kB · 0 downloads The difference depends on if we are talking Grains by Volume or Grains by weight. MEC # 26 bushing is 2 cc of volume. 2 cc of 3F APP weighs 23.5 grains 2 cc equals approximately 30 BP Grains by Volume. Quote
Texas Maverick Posted June 7 Posted June 7 1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said: Capt Baylor's Conversion Chart BP Conversion Sheet (revised December 2012).pdf 337.59 kB · 2 downloads Guess I will have some testing to do. TM Quote
Dallas McBoomboom Posted June 7 Posted June 7 8 hours ago, Erasmus said: This is an absolute aside from this thread but, this got me to wondering about the composition of these things (and the original question is well answered at this point) APP is (according to the MSDS) - and is not self igniting Potassium Nitrate Potassium Perchlorate Charcoal Pyrodex is (according to the MSDS) - has an auto ignition temp of 740F Charcoal Sulfer Potassium Nitrate Potassium Perchlorate Graphite Goex is (according to the MSDS and as expected for being real black) - has an auto ignition temp of 392 - 867F Charcoal Sulfur Potassium Nitrate APP is fully miscible in water, Goex has 'good' solubility in water, and Pyrodex is partially soluble in water. I'm not a chemist, but I find this interesting. I'm not a chemist either, but this is great info, thank you for sharing! Quote
Sedalia Dave Posted June 7 Posted June 7 8 hours ago, Erasmus said: This is an absolute aside from this thread but, this got me to wondering about the composition of these things (and the original question is well answered at this point) APP is (according to the MSDS) - and is not self igniting Potassium Nitrate Potassium Perchlorate Charcoal Pyrodex is (according to the MSDS) - has an auto ignition temp of 740F Charcoal Sulfer Potassium Nitrate Potassium Perchlorate Graphite Goex is (according to the MSDS and as expected for being real black) - has an auto ignition temp of 392 - 867F Charcoal Sulfur Potassium Nitrate APP is fully miscible in water, Goex has 'good' solubility in water, and Pyrodex is partially soluble in water. I'm not a chemist, but I find this interesting. 16 minutes ago, Dallas McBoomboom said: I'm not a chemist either, but this is great info, thank you for sharing! Something about the SDS that info came from is not right. I looked, and every website had the same SDS. I pulled the SDS and patent info for American Pioneer Powder a few years ago and APP was using Ascorbic Acid in it's formula. Quote
Scarlett Posted June 7 Posted June 7 49 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: ulled the SDS and patent info for American Pioneer Powder a few years ago and APP was using Ascorbic Acid in it's formula. YES! APP uses a LOT of ascorbic acid (vitamin C 🤦🏼♀️🤣) in its formula. btw, missing you in Tennessee this weekend! Hugs! Scarlett Quote
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