Tell me about APP powder

[Dapper Dave]

I've heard tell about it here as a black powder substitute that is well liked, but I have never seen any in person or tried any. The only black powder substitute I ever had was Pyrodex pistol, and I gave away the unopened jog to a new shooter. I have always used either factory black or home made black, (about 65% of factory power), but I keep hearing about this APP here.

What can you tell me about it? 

Ya know, I do apologize, I forgot to say please. Please, and thank you!

Edited June 3 by Dapper Dave
Common courtesy

[Lawdog Dago Dom]

@ScarlettThey’re playing your song!

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

It produces good smoke, cleans easily, won't rust your guns quickly and loads easily. Doesn't have the same storage requirements as real BP in most localities.

Downside is it doesn't have as nice a deep "boom" or produce as much flame for night shoots.

[Cemetery]

you can use lead boolits that are made for smokeless, as well as coated boolits, so no need for black powder boolits.

 

easy cleanup using cleaning cloths like Crocodile Wipes, Wet Ones, Body Wipes ... etc.

 

you can use regular gun oil without worrying about petroleum based products making funky gunky sludge.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

I love it!

Cleans with Windex

Don't have to clean it 'as soon as possible'

Less corosive than Holy/777/Pyrodex

Not as 'hot' loads

Smokes great

Is forgiving when loading

In 12g, you have no real recoil

(Actually, in any gun)

 

Give it a try.

In our cases, we load 3/4 case/ base of the bullett as it sets

For sg, around 38gr...wich some think is too much.

Video is in AZ...dry

When in humidity, triple the smoke!

[Sedalia Dave]

APP and Shooters World Black are the same powder.

 

Easy to use and can be run through any powder measure. 

 

Compared to real BP or Triple 7 it is a really coarse powder. 3F will run through most powder measures. 2F not so much.

 

In cartridge guns avoid compressing the powder. Just fill the case until it is just touching the base of the bullet.

 

My 12 gauge load is 35 grains by weight of 3F APP, Claybuster CB0178 wad, 7/8 oz of shot, STS or Gun Club hull, any shotshell primer.

Takes down KDs no problem. You can use less powder but then the hulls don't seal the chamber and the blowby will cause the hulls to stick in your SXS.

 

When left in the bottle for long periods of time it does tend to clump. I have a mesh screen in the bottom of the funnel I use to fill my powder measure. It catches the clumps so I can break them up and it also catches the little desiccant bags put in with the powder to adsorb moisture. 

[Dapper Dave]

Now THAT was a lot of good information quickly, thank you. 

Singin' Sue, I am also in AZ, CG to be exact. Where was that shot? Not as much smoke, that's for certain.

Who carries the stuff? I am down to my last bottle of Olde Eynsford 3F, seeing the bottom of the barrel ain't fun, and I need another tumbler to start making my own again. This might be a fast work around. 

Is it expensive? 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I bought my last APP from Scarlet Darling at the SC State match for $34/bottle.  She might be coming to Land Run and perhaps you could buy some APP there.  Shooters World Black Powder Sub is similar to APP and is stocked by Grafs.

[Scarlett]

28 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I bought my last APP from Scarlet Darling at the SC State match for $34/bottle.  She might be coming to Land Run and perhaps you could buy some APP there.  Shooters World Black Powder Sub is similar to APP and is stocked by Grafs.

 

1 hour ago, Dapper Dave said:

Now THAT was a lot of good information quickly, thank you. 

Singin' Sue, I am also in AZ, CG to be exact. Where was that shot? Not as much smoke, that's for certain.

Who carries the stuff? I am down to my last bottle of Olde Eynsford 3F, seeing the bottom of the barrel ain't fun, and I need another tumbler to start making my own again. This might be a fast work around. 

Is it expensive? 

I ship APP by the case - 12 pounds - 1, 2 or 4 cases. You can mix 2/3F in same order or case however you choose to do it. It’s super easy clean up. I use PAM - equal parts peroxide/alcohol/Murphy’s Oil Soap.  I travel a lot and often wait til I get home to clean guns. No issues with rust or corrosion. The clumping issues that @Sedalia Dave mentioned are a less common occurrence than in times past. I do shake the bottle before putting in hopper. I use a funnel to keep the desiccant pack from getting in hopper. 
 

As for the lack of spark/flame … I add crushed up sparklers for night matches. 😉😂. The classic BP “BOOM” is, sadly, not present for SG however, it’s still a “push” more than a snap with the SG.  For some fun, I add powdered incense to some of my shotshells - over powder under nitro card. It’s a fun surprise for the posse. 
 

I will be at Land Run and other matches east of the Mississippi. To ship a case is only slightly more

than to buy one in person. Price decreases with additional cases. I shoot FCGF ALL the time - even monthlies- and it’s a blast!! 
 

Smoky Hugs!

Scarlett

[Renegade Roper]

Hi guys, 

In another post (not trying to hijack this one) this was mentioned too, "don't compress APP", why?  Does it add pressure?  Lose pressure?  Just curious as we are new to black powder too.

Roper & Schwaby

[Dapper Dave]

Sparklers and incense in a black powder substitute, THAT'S thinking outside the bun! Any pics from night shoots, just for grins? Also, I echo the post above, no compression? I compress OE3F in my 45 Colt full power loads - those THUMP!

Edit to add, my state computer wouldn't/couldn't get to your website for some reason, I'll check at home. Highly unlikely I'll be anywhere east of the Missus Hip anytime soon, unfortunately. Last time I was over that way was 1979. I haven't been to any other matches other than the ones in my club, Rio Salado Cowboys yet, but my wife and I are going to try to come down to at least see what happens at Bordertown if we can. 

Edited June 3 by Dapper Dave

[Boggus Deal #64218]

54 minutes ago, Renegade Roper said:

Hi guys, 

In another post (not trying to hijack this one) this was mentioned too, "don't compress APP", why?  Does it add pressure?  Lose pressure?  Just curious as we are new to black powder too.

Roper & Schwaby

 

9 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Sparklers and incense in a black powder substitute, THAT'S thinking outside the bun! Any pics from night shoots, just for grins? Also, I echo the post above, no compression? I compress OE3F in my 45 Colt full power loads - those THUMP!

Their website said increased pressure and erratic velocities. Find a load combination that just fills the hull and it will be fine.

[Rye Miles #13621]

The only difference  is APP doesn’t have that awesome flame that you get with real black.🤠

[Kid Rich]

55 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Sparklers and incense in a black powder substitute, THAT'S thinking outside the bun! Any pics from night shoots, just for grins? Also, I echo the post above, no compression? I compress OE3F in my 45 Colt full power loads - those THUMP!

Edit to add, my state computer wouldn't/couldn't get to your website for some reason, I'll check at home. Highly unlikely I'll be anywhere east of the Missus Hip anytime soon, unfortunately. Last time I was over that way was 1979. I haven't been to any other matches other than the ones in my club, Rio Salado Cowboys yet, but my wife and I are going to try to come down to at least see what happens at Bordertown if we can. 

Let me know if you want real BP or APP, I have enough that I can fix you up.

kR

[Nickle]

In my area stuff is hard to get. I'm currently shooting  goex that was bought in early 90s  but it's getting used up.  I also am using up pyrodex from 30 years ago.

In a dry climate what is the long term storage or shelf life of APP before it clumps up?

[Dapper Dave]

@Kid Rich, thankee very kindly indeed, sir! I would be happy to take you up on trying some of that APP everyone is talking about!

[Eyesa Horg]

34 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

@Kid Rich, thankee very kindly indeed, sir! I would be happy to take you up on trying some of that APP everyone is talking about!

Say Hi to Kid Rich and Shirtail for Eyesa & Ellie!

[Diamond Jake]

Smoke?  This is one of my stages at this year's AL State match.  I don't know exactly where I was in the stage, but it looks like at least a couple of the shotgun targets are still up.  I shoot 1 cc APP in 38 revolvers, 1.3cc in 45 Colt rifle, and 3.1 cc in 12 ga.

 

Easy clean up and can use any bullet in cartridges.  The only place I don't use APP is in my 40-65 Sharps...for some reason 60 grains of APP in those bigger cases doesn't work well for me.  I use Holy Black for those.

Edited June 3 by Diamond Jake

[Mister Badly]

I go bottom of the bullet on my 38 and 357 rounds and use a Lee auto drum powder measure. 

Edited June 3 by Mister Badly

[The Surgeon]

2 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

Sparklers and incense in a black powder substitute, THAT'S thinking outside the bun! Any pics from night shoots, just for grins? Also, I echo the post above, no compression? I compress OE3F in my 45 Colt full power loads - those THUMP!

Edit to add, my state computer wouldn't/couldn't get to your website for some reason, I'll check at home. Highly unlikely I'll be anywhere east of the Missus Hip anytime soon, unfortunately. Last time I was over that way was 1979. I haven't been to any other matches other than the ones in my club, Rio Salado Cowboys yet, but my wife and I are going to try to come down to at least see what happens at Bordertown if we can. 

You want to see some cool night shoot stuff you got to shoot with @Cemetery idk if he has any videos he could share. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

2 hours ago, Nickle said:

In my area stuff is hard to get. I'm currently shooting  goex that was bought in early 90s  but it's getting used up.  I also am using up pyrodex from 30 years ago.

In a dry climate what is the long term storage or shelf life of APP before it clumps up?

I too live in a dry climate.  After a few years clumps form but are very easy to break up.  I swirl a screwdriver in the bottle, dump in contents in a shallow container and crush any small, visible clumps.  (I do the same for Triple Seven.)  Then I load the APP.  I've never had to discard a bottle due to clumps.  I do store loaded ammo in a dry box with a desiccant pack as a precaution.  

[Judah MacAbee SASS #64095 Life]

Dave

 

Come talk to me at Rio on Saturday.  I use it as does Superstition Slim and others. I've switched to it for my cowboy guns from 2F BP. There's plenty of smoke although I miss the flames and that special BP sound. BUT clean up is ridiculously easy.

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, Renegade Roper said:

Hi guys, 

In another post (not trying to hijack this one) this was mentioned too, "don't compress APP", why?  Does it add pressure?  Lose pressure?  Just curious as we are new to black powder too.

Roper & Schwaby

APP does not require compression but it’s ok if you do. Some folks use filler - I don’t. REAL BLACK powder MUST be compressed. 
 

Hugs!

 

Scarlett

[Eyesa Horg]

But isn't flame and boom the reason for BP? 🤪

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, Nickle said:

In my area stuff is hard to get. I'm currently shooting  goex that was bought in early 90s  but it's getting used up.  I also am using up pyrodex from 30 years ago.

In a dry climate what is the long term storage or shelf life of APP before it clumps up?

I live in a humid climate - SC and store my APP in a concrete building, my van and in climate controlled shop. I have not had ANY issues with clumping… my shop is in my home so I don’t have a ton of space to store a lot.  I will get some from the van or my building if I run out in my shop and it’s fine. 
 

The guys at the plant in Colorado are diligent about packaging.  They won’t package when it’s raining/damp in an effort to prevent the clumping. As long as it’s stored sealed, it should last a long time. If it does clump, you can use a long screw driver to break it up with no ill effects on the powder performance. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

But isn't flame and boom the reason for BP? 🤪

😂🤣😂. The SMOKE is COOL! The flames are, too but mostly visible in the night. I can’t travel with or sell real black powder without a LOT of licenses from a LOT of alphabet organizations - ATF, DOT etc. I can’t store it without it being in a special magazine… so I use and sell the APP. It keeps me off the watch lists! 😉🤣

 

APP is also not corrosive and I don’t have to clean my guns right away…

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Scarlett]

 

This was at the Fire & Brimstone Black Powder Championship at Paradise Pass in 2023. The ONLY cartridges that have sparklers are my pistol cartridges. You can see the rifle (125gr bullet with 10gr by WEIGHT APP 3F) makes some fire as does my shotgun (42gr by WEIGHT & 1+ ounce of shot).

 

The 3rd annual match is being held August 22-23. I highly recommend it. Loads of fun, night shoot, great food, fellowship, range. 
 

@Dallas McBoomboom will attest to the fun! 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

 

[Eyesa Horg]

Way cool Scarlett 😊

[Dallas McBoomboom]

@Scarlett is right as always! This year's Fire and Brimstone in Paradise will be an absolute riot, with great stages, side matches (including plainsman mini match), the famous night shoot, and new this year, Cowboy Bingo, featuring the legendary Mighty Furball as your caller! There will be vendors (including Scarlett Darlin), and more, hope to see you all there! 

[Texas Maverick]

11 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

My 12 gauge load is 35 grains by weight of 3F APP, Claybuster CB0178 wad, 7/8 oz of shot, STS or Gun Club hull, any shotshell primer.

Takes down KDs no problem. You can use less powder but then the hulls don't seal the chamber and the blowby will cause the hulls to stick in your SXS.

Dave, do you dip or use the powder bushing? If bushing which one do you have? I tried to see what bushings I have and how much they drop and the 26 drops around 30 grns and the next size I have is a 42. I am guessing I need around a 28 or 29 to get 35 grns on my MEC 9000G. I am also using 7/8 oz of shot and AA hulls with the Cheddite primers. I have the CB0178 and CB1100 so can go with either to make a good load and crimp.

 

TM

[Erasmus]

I shoot APP and real black quite often, my experiences are perhaps a little different than some of the folks here. 

 

The only time I've seen rust in my bore was from using APP, cleaning with PAM, and going back to check my gun the next day. I've left my black powder guns overnight after a weekend shoot and cleaned them the next evening with no problems. 

 

I've shot compressed loads and uncompressed loads in .45-70, compressed loads had bad standard deviations. The instructions are correct, load to the bottom of the bullet (that's where I've seen the best accuracy in .45-70 and .38-55). 

 

Clean up is no easier or harder than real black powder. 

 

Being able to use coated bullets and not have to deal with sticky lube when reloading is the biggest upside for APP. The dies stay cleaner, your hands stay cleaner, and if you drop a round it's not going to come back with a bunch of dirt stuck to it. 

 

APP (shooters world most often for me) does seem to clump pretty bad, but I just shake up the bottle. I did, however, have it bridge in a powder dropper while I as cleaning it. I thought I got all the powder out but it turns out it just bridged and there was a slug of powder left. It sat in my garage for a couple of months and turned into a hard plug that I had to dig out with picks. 

 

If I didn't have thousands of coated bullets for reloading smokeless for my wife, I'd just use real black. If I was shooting lots of cartridge rounds I'd go with coated bullets and APP, but I mostly shoot frontiersman. The only time I've seen multiple hangfires from one cap and ball pistol was when my buddy ran out of real black and used APP, anecdotal to be sure, but not something I'd risk at a bigger match. 

Edited June 3 by Erasmus

[Sedalia Dave]

12 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

Now THAT was a lot of good information quickly, thank you. 

Singin' Sue, I am also in AZ, CG to be exact. Where was that shot? Not as much smoke, that's for certain.

Who carries the stuff? I am down to my last bottle of Olde Eynsford 3F, seeing the bottom of the barrel ain't fun, and I need another tumbler to start making my own again. This might be a fast work around. 

Is it expensive? 

 

According to APP's website the below stores carry it in Arizona.

 

 

WES GRIFFEN GUNS & RELOADING
2712 CAMINO DEL RIO
BULLHEAD CITY, AZ  86442
Phone: 928-758-3135

 

SMOKE-N-GUNS
322 S. MAIN STREET
COTTONWOOD, AZ  86326
Phone: 928-634-3216

 

CABELA'S
9380 W. GLENDALE AVE.
GLENDALE, AZ  85305
Phone: 623-872-6700

 

GUNTOWN
4520 BANKS ST.
KINGMAN, AZ  86401

 

ON TARGET ENTERPRISES
1417 JEFFERSON
KINGMAN, AZ  86401
Phone: 520-753-4314

 

MOUNTAIN MAN AZ
617 N DELMAR
MESA, AZ  85203

 

DIAMOND POINT GUNS
HC 5, BOX 81F, 7 UNION
PAYSON, AZ  85541
Phone: 520-474-5345

 

BECE BUSINESS SERVICES
14009 N. 21ST PLACE
PHOENIX, AZ  85022

 

HUNTERS PARADISE
481 S. MAIN
SNOWFLAKE, AZ 85937
Phone: 928-536-3343

 

CHEROKEE JACKS
1108 E FREEMONT
TOMBSTONE, AZ  85638
Phone: 520-457-3616

 

B-B Guns
3521 E. NIGHTINGGALE PL.
TUCSON, AZ  85739

 

LOCK & LOAD
2563 N. CAMPBELL
TUCSON, AZ  85719
Phone: 520-325-8990

 

THUNDER STICK TRADING
1125 N. JEFFERSON AVENUE
TUCSON, AZ  85712
Phone: 520-290-8599

[I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321]

There's a lot of info and people's experience with APP been said here.  I don't use APP anymore but do use real Black powder, just wanted to have that FIRE and SMOKE that comes with real BP compared to a lot more smoke that comes with APP.  To each it's own.

 

OR you can go to their website and look around.  Just type in American Pioneer Powder.  

[Sedalia Dave]

Scheels sells Shooters World Black.

[Scarlett]

4 hours ago, I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 said:

 

OR you can go to their website and look around.  Just type in American Pioneer Powder.  

Better yet, go to my website and place your order. Bullets By Scarlett is a distributor for American Pioneer Powder AND Shooter’s World (smokeless &  BP substitute). I’m also a SASS affiliated Merchant. I shop a lot of places but for cowboy… I start and stay “local”

 

Hugs!

Scarlett