1897 6 round mod

[Dusty Woodman]

I see kits for modifying an 1897 to accept 6 rounds. Just looking at things it seems to me you could simply reduce the length of the follower +-3/8" and flare it again. Maybe shorten the spring a little too? 

The kits are not expensive but I enjoy the DIY aspect of things. Anyone have experience with this? 

Dusty

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I've never understood why the 6 round mod is needed.

[Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L]

Wild Bunch shooting allows the 97 to be stoked with six rounds.

[Dacotua]

5 hours ago, Dusty Woodman said:

I see kits for modifying an 1897 to accept 6 rounds. Just looking at things it seems to me you could simply reduce the length of the follower +-3/8" and flare it again. Maybe shorten the spring a little too? 

The kits are not expensive but I enjoy the DIY aspect of things. Anyone have experience with this? 

Dusty

 

You do not need a follower, you can simply cut the spring down a inch or so. It will allow you to have 6 rounds. (At least on my Cimarron 1887, it now loads 6 rounds in the tube. Well technically 5 in the tube, and one that is pushed 3/4 the way in when you close the lever - So effectively you have 6 rounds in the "magazine)

 

 

Previous post by Duece Stevens:

 

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

24 minutes ago, Wyatt Earp SASS#1628L said:

Wild Bunch shooting allows the 97 to be stoked with six rounds.

Again, I don't understand why.

The gun was designed with a 5 round magazine  Wild Bunch requires a 97.  (Or at least it used to.)  Why does it write 6 round stages when the required gun only holds 5?   You are pretty much forcing people to modify their guns.   That makes no sense.

[Dacotua]

8 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Again, I don't understand why.

The gun was designed with a 5 round magazine  Wild Bunch requires a 97.  (Or at least it used to.)  Why does it write 6 round stages when the required gun only holds 5?   You are pretty much forcing people to modify their guns.   That makes no sense.

 

Just about everyone in cowboy action shooting modifies their guns. People put in short stroke kits, they modify the breach of the SXS shotguns, etc..

You can use a SXS in Wild Bunch, they don't force you to use a 97. People use 97's or 87's because you can start out with the shotgun fully loaded. You're at a disadvantage if you don't use a 97 or 87 in Wild Bunch with 6 rounds loaded.

 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

Wildbunch also allows the Model 12 shotgun. Do these hold 6 in stock condition?

 

One of my model 97s will barely hold 6 but only with certain brands of shells. I've found not all factory 2-3/4" shells are the same length. 

[Dacotua]

1 hour ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

Wildbunch also allows the Model 12 shotgun. Do these hold 6 in stock condition?

 

One of my model 97s will barely hold 6 but only with certain brands of shells. I've found not all factory 2-3/4" shells are the same length. 

 

My Winchester 97, I THINK, I had to buy a shorter follower to get it to hold 6 rounds. My Norinco 97 barely holds 6 rounds. 

 

(I could have that reversed, but I'm pretty sure my Norinco held 6 rounds from the get go.)

[Rip Snorter]

I sure would see if the short shotshells would run before I modified a great old gun.

[Crisco]

Far as I know, the Model 12s all hold 6.

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

My 1908 '97 holds six in stock condition. I haven't checked the 1903 or the 1915.

 

My Coyote Cap 97CB also holds six. 

[Idaho Gunslinger]

43 minutes ago, Crisco said:

Far as I know, the Model 12s all hold 6.

I am assuming this is why they routinely use 6 shells in Wild Bunch, but I've never handled a model 12 so I don't know. 

17 minutes ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

My 1908 '97 holds six in stock condition. I haven't checked the 1903 or the 1915.

 

My Coyote Cap 97CB also holds six. 

My 1899 only holds 5. My 1911 holds 6 with the right brand of shells. 

[Dusty Woodman]

Great conversation but I'm starting to think that nobody here has experience with my question. I can buy a shorter follower and it looks like they come with a shorter spring as well. The follower stops hard up against the pin at the end of the magazine. I might try to take 1/8" off and see if I can get a sixth one in. It seems like I'm just on the edge of being able to do that right now. If that doesn't work take off another 1/8". A rough measuring using a stick through the magazine and then measuring the length of six shells says I might need as much as 3/8" removed. I just didn't know if this would cause the follower to rotate and jam in the magazine or some other such thing. I will also check how much the spring compresses. Need enough force to get the last shell out and enough room for the spring to fully compress. 

 

[SouthwestShooter]

5 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I've never understood why the 6 round mod is needed.

Wild bunch.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

On my winchester '97's I just cut the spring until it held 6.  On my IAC, I contacted @Outlaw Gambler and he told me to cut 3 1/2 coils (I think).  I had heard somewhere that imported pump shotguns were only supposed to hold 5, but the Cimarron (Polytech) '97 I had held 6 out of the box.

 

H.K. your question is valid.  You can use totally stock guns if you want for pretty much all CAS and WB, but you are forced to modify the shotgun to hold the stage requirement.  Not all stages use 6, but many do.  Now for the reason why that came about: just because. 

[Three Foot Johnson]

If you reload, make up some 2 1/2"ers and stuff one or two of those in.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

12 hours ago, Dacotua said:

 

Just about everyone in cowboy action shooting modifies their guns. People put in short stroke kits, they modify the breach of the SXS shotguns, etc..

You can use a SXS in Wild Bunch, they don't force you to use a 97. People use 97's or 87's because you can start out with the shotgun fully loaded. You're at a disadvantage if you don't use a 97 or 87 in Wild Bunch with 6 rounds loaded.

 

But far and away the best shotgun for Wild Bunch much is the Model 12. 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

11 hours ago, Idaho Gunslinger said:

Wildbunch also allows the Model 12 shotgun. Do these hold 6 in stock condition?

 

One of my model 97s will barely hold 6 but only with certain brands of shells. I've found not all factory 2-3/4" shells are the same length. 

Yes, just have to remove the plug, if it came with one. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

A long time ago, In a Galaxy far far away 😜   I use to do a 6 round mod on '97s.  Then the "kit" came out and for the price, I found the work to do the mod a wast of time and effort.  The kit is a "drop in" and done.  Your call, of course.

[Sedalia Dave]

On 4/12/2025 at 5:33 PM, Dacotua said:

 

Just about everyone in cowboy action shooting modifies their guns. People put in short stroke kits, they modify the breach of the SXS shotguns, etc..

You can use a SXS in Wild Bunch, they don't force you to use a 97. People use 97's or 87's because you can start out with the shotgun fully loaded. You're at a disadvantage if you don't use a 97 or 87 in Wild Bunch with 6 rounds loaded.

 

 

Until recently, you could not use a SxS or 87 in Wild Bunch. Prior to the change the only shotguns legal for WB were the Model 12, Model 97, and the IAC Model 93/97. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

7 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Until recently, you could not use a SxS or 87 in Wild Bunch. Prior to the change the only shotguns legal for WB were the Model 12, Model 97, and the IAC Model 93/97. 

And wasn't the Model 12 not legal until a some years back as well?  I know it is supposed to be better/smoother than the '97 but I've seen plenty of trainwrecks with the M12 as well.   I'll never outrun my '97.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

30 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

And wasn't the Model 12 not legal until a some years back as well?  I know it is supposed to be better/smoother than the '97 but I've seen plenty of trainwrecks with the M12 as well.   I'll never outrun my '97.

It was made legal around 2012.  
If you have seen a train wreck with the 12 it was likely either ammo or operator. 
They occasionally break a firing pin unless a good aftermarket one is installed. Other than that, they just run. 

[Dusty Woodman]

2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

A long time ago, In a Galaxy far far away 😜   I use to do a 6 round mod on '97s.  Then the "kit" came out and for the price, I found the work to do the mod a wast of time and effort.  The kit is a "drop in" and done.  Your call, of course.

Spoke to a buddy of mine at a shoot yesterday. Easy mod. The price of buying one isn't an issue for me. I just like noodling things out and making them happen. Quick chuck in the lathe and a hacksaw shortened it. Then I used a 3/4 hole punch that I use for cutting wads to create a flare. A little bit of burnishing and the follower was complete. Threw it in and my spring was already short enough and long enough to do the job. $0 outlay but dollars are a very crude way of judging the value of a thing. They're just green pieces of paper. I enjoyed my time at the bench as well as my time trying to figure it out and talking to people who already knew how.

["Big Boston"]

Most has been covered, so most is repeat with a few added facts, (at least factual from what I've experienced. 

 

1897s of the take down variety only hold 5, they are not far from holding 6, but normal 12 ga factory ammo, 5. I've not worked on any solid frame 1897s. 

 

I bought two PV kits and installed them, then they, the 1897 takedown, will hold six. 

 

The kit uses a shorter follower, and it looks like a Winchester Model 12 follower. IIRC I had a Model 12 follower and I converted an 1897 to 6 with it. Here's the thing, Model 12 followers are not that easy to buy. The spring in the kit is a bit different, but you can use a stock one. The trick is not how much you cut off, it's how much sticks out of the magazine after you cut it.  

 

IMO, after trimming you'll need a minimum of 3" of spring sticking out. Basically what if you have too long a spring, it will be the limiting factor, not the follower. That is why the PV spring is long, but it has fewer coils, IOW the coils are further apart. That way it will compact into the follower. Bottom line, the PV follower is machined, so the inside is smooth and the mouth beveled, it feeds 6 smoothly. If you DIY, it may take a bit of fiddling, especially if the spring is a bit big in overall diameter. Sometime the spring inside an old '97 is not original. 

 

All Model 12s hold 6 out of the box, 2 3/4 only, not 3". I don't want someone chiming in that his Model 12 Duck magnum will not hold 6. 

 

BTW, the spring length sticking out of the magazine works for lever rifles as well. I have a 1866 Trapper that holds 10, you guessed it, shorter spring. IIRC about 4" out of the tube on that one.

 

Caveat, you are on your own shortening springs, the tube has to be smooth, and the action has to be decent in how it holds the shell in. After all, that last shell out of the tube isn't being pushed very hard. 

 

BB

[watab kid]

so this is a wild bunch mod to a shotgun that works in both venues , is it then illegal in CAS ? 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

16 minutes ago, watab kid said:

so this is a wild bunch mod to a shotgun that works in both venues , is it then illegal in CAS ? 

 

It IS allowed in CAS under the following:

"Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here."

SHB p.33

[Three Foot Johnson]

It's not an external mod, so a Model 97 thusly modified is legal in both Cowboy Action and Wild Bunch, while the Model 12 is only legal in Wild Bunch. I think any main match Cowboy Action shotgun is now legal in Wild Bunch, plus the Model 12 and IAC 93/97. Main match .38/.357 rifles are now legal in WB too, but the .25-20, .32-20, .32 H&R mag, .327 Federal mag, and .56-.50 are still Cowboy Action only.

 

(edit) PWB beat me out by two seconds. 

[watab kid]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

It IS allowed in CAS under the following:

"Internal modifications not referenced here that cannot be seen while the firearm is at rest (action closed) are allowed provided they do not affect the external operation or directly conflict with one of the modifications listed here."

SHB p.33

ok , not something i planned to do any time soon but good to know thank you , it might be needed soon asa ive been thinking on the wild bunch a little recently , i nhave a couple friends that are considering it now , i think im too old to start another venue but i might try it a little 

["Big Boston"]

4 hours ago, watab kid said:

ok , not something i planned to do any time soon but good to know thank you , it might be needed soon asa ive been thinking on the wild bunch a little recently , i nhave a couple friends that are considering it now , i think im too old to start another venue but i might try it a little 

 

There are a few clubs/ranges that have a hybrid category that is referred to as "1911 Cowboy". You can shoot it on a normal Cowboy scenario/targets. Instead of two cowboy revolvers you shoot a 1911, two mags with 5 in each, and you can use a Model 12 for a shotgun. Depending on the scenario, the shotgun is either loaded or empty when you come to the line. In Canada we are not allowed to buy handguns anymore, we can still use the ones we have until the government implements a buy back and destroy program. To attract new shooters, clubs/ranges have had to become a bit flexible and innovative with what is allowed. For SASS matches, Cowboy rules are followed.

 

Personally, I find 1911 Cowboy a lot of fun. The 5 in the mag doesn't mess with scenarios and keeps counting your shots simple.  

 

BB 

[watab kid]

that sounds like fun , 

 

im sorry to here of the equipment changes and losses of your handguns , seems very unreasonable to me here , hopefully things might change for you with a new government , 

[Three Foot Johnson]

On 4/12/2025 at 4:33 PM, Dacotua said:

 

People use 97's or 87's because you can start out with the shotgun fully loaded. You're at a disadvantage if you don't use a 97 or 87 in Wild Bunch with 6 rounds loaded.

 

I ain't much of an '87 shooter, but I used it in a WB match once... half the posse went to lunch while I was shooting a stage.  I'll stick to a Model 12.

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Three Foot Johnson said:

I ain't much of an '87 shooter, but I used it in a WB match once... half the posse went to lunch while I was shooting a stage.  I'll stick to a Model 12.

 

Funny as I can run my stoked 87 faster than I can run either the 97 or Model 12 

[Three Foot Johnson]

4 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Funny as I can run my stoked 87 faster than I can run either the 97 or Model 12 

@Crusty has a '97 like that... 

[Howlin Mad Murdock SASS #4037]

No kit or mods needed to get a Chinese '97 to hold six.

 

Just buy a Remington 870 Police Magnum spring and swap it out.

 

Might have to cut a coil or two off, but that's it.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Hey H.K., Not quite.  One must remember the 1897 as designed, was intended for Two-n-Half inch hulls.  It was designed to hold 6.  It was also designed for "Market Hunters."  The guns were not intended for two-n-Three quarter hulls.  '97s, even those marked 2 3/4 have shot chambers and should be reamed to modern dimensions with the forcing cone extended.