Transitional 1860 Henry Jam

[Hawkeye Kid]

Need so good advice on fixing a cartridge jam when cycling the rifle. This jam does not occur on the first round it happens intermittently on the second or third or ….

The first photo with loading gate removed for clarity, shows how the cartridge should feed from magazine tube to the carrier.  
Second & third  photo is the jam where the rim of the cartridge pops up over the frame (part circled in black in first photo) and jams when cycling lever.

 

Tried filling a ramp on the  mortise,  only willing to go so far removing metal.

[JackSlade]

You gotta close the gate and that keep it from popping out. At least, that's what I did to stop rounds from sticking out and causing a jam. You might have a different problem.

 

Re-read your post and saw that this is happening with your gate closed.  You might need to add some material to the inside of the gate to keep the rounds from cockeyeing to the side.

Edited March 20 by JackSlade

[Cemetery]

Is the cartridge stop part of the loading gate damaged in anyway?

[Hawkeye Kid]

Not that I can determine.  Rifle was sold as new never fired.  
Iam trying out Jack Slade’s suggest on adding some material to extend loading ramp.  J B weld a piece of plastic that may stop round from bouncing over frame stop.

 

 

[Hawkeye Kid]

Loading gate installed.

Not sure how well JB Weld and plastic will hold up, will give it a try tomorrow at the range.

 

 

[Hawkeye Kid]

Not going to work, when cycling the carrier hit the extension.

 

[Hawkeye Kid]

Some new photos of the issue.

First is a 73, note how the loading gate tab fills the space between the frame.

Second photo is the 1860 without loading gate. The jam is when round bounces over the right side of frame.

Third photo is with loading gate. The void on the left is not filled compared to the 73, 

Fourth photo is the loading gate.

 

[Blackwater 53393]

Try temporarily attaching a small piece of hard plastic or metal, (I’d suggest a small piece of feeler gauge material) to the front edge of the loading gate.  You can modify the shape so that it clears the carrier, the idea being to make the loading gate “spoon” a little longer.

 

Also!! Try opening the magazine and letting some pressure off of the magazine spring. You can collapse a small section of the spring by tying it with a piece of thread. A little less pressure may solve your issue.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Think you are having just about the same mechanical catching on the frame of the gun as the rounds are levered up as happens with some 73s and 66s.  

 

The instructions on Pioneer Gunworks for fixing the loading gate mortise bevels appears that it would fix this gun as well.

 

Hit this link

Pioneer Technical Info Page

 

then open the downloadable instructions: Frame Modification for 1866/73 (Round Alignment Fix)

 

But you will have to be the one to figure out if this is a good fix for your gun.  I've not applied it to a Uberti 1860.   

 

Where cartridges normally jam in most toggle link guns is the rim sits to the right as it ready to be levered up.  And that is usually because the bevel on the frame's left side is not gentle enough) to let the cartridge reliably self-center.  Comparing your two photos above, one of a 66 and then the next photo of your 1860, I can see the bevel cut in the frame is a very different angle and size. 

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

 

Then the next bevel to check is the one at the TOP of the window (mortise) cut in the frame.   Which is covered by the carrier in both of these pictures.  

 

That bevel needs to be cut about like the orange area shown in this next photo:  

 

 

 

 

 

This "top of window" bevel is REALLY what helps force the cartridge slightly forward as the carrier begins to lift, which keeps the rim from jamming against the back wall of the frame (the point just below where the bolt comes through the frame).

 

good luck, GJ

Edited March 21 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Hawkeye Kid]

There’s no clearance between the back of the gate and lifter arm to add a shim to make the loading spoon longer. Maybe something could be fabricated to fit inside the spoon, but not on back side

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

73s don't need all that much front-of-gate-spoon width.  Sure your 60 needs to be wider than factory made it?  GJ

[Hawkeye Kid]

Took a lot of metal off to make the ramp. Seems to work with a few test rounds. Off to the range to really test.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I guess you did open that bevel up!  Hope it works well.   GJ

[Hawkeye Kid]

Took two trips to the range.  Working about 95% of the time still get an occasional jam.  Little jiggle of lever, jam round will cycle.

Little more filing and polishing should be good to go.

 

Was a lot more than expected to getting this rifle to work.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

43 minutes ago, Hawkeye Kid said:

Took two trips to the range.  Working about 95% of the time still get an occasional jam.  Little jiggle of lever, jam round will cycle.

Little more filing and polishing should be good to go.

 

Was a lot more than expected to getting this rifle to work.  

Have you tested the feed with any factory ammo? 

[Hawkeye Kid]

No factory ammo.  Only  light cowboy loads all at 1.58 LOA.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

At this point, I'd work the bevel on the left side of window, the blue area I posted a picture of earlier.  Make it wider and "shallower".  Good luck, you are on the trail now.   GJ

[El Sobrante Kid]

12 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

At this point, I'd work the bevel on the left side of window, the blue area I posted a picture of earlier.  Make it wider and "shallower".  Good luck, you are on the trail now.   GJ

 

Do you mean; make it wider side to side, and shallower front to back. Or the opposite; wider front to back, and shallower side to side? Thx

[Hawkeye Kid]

Back at the range again today.  100 rounds without a problem firing slow and as fast as I could go. 
Next project is to install a short stroke kit.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

7 hours ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

Do you mean; make it wider side to side, and shallower front to back. Or the opposite; wider front to back, and shallower side to side? Thx

I was talking about changing the angle of slope on the bevel on the left side of the mortise (window) in the frame where the loading gate and carrier meet.

 

Shallower means the angle has to be altered from fairly steep angle (like, perhaps 60  degrees from the face of the rear surface of the frame's carrier shaft, to more like 30 degrees referenced to the frame face.    Thus, shallower angle.   Thus, easier for the rim of the cartridge to slide around on the bevel as the carrier starts to rise.

 

Wider is what results when you make a bevel shallower and leave the vertex of the angle (at the left side of the window) in the same spot.  With "included" angle of the bevel going from 60 degrees to 30 degrees, and the opposite side (the frame thickness) staying constant), the hypotenuse of that included angle becomes longer, thus looking at the bevel from where the carrier shaft is, the bevel surface "looks wider."

 

"Shallow" really can only apply to the angle of the bevel in this example.  "Wider" can only apply to the angle's hypotenuse (beveled surface of the cut in the frame).    High School Geometry is your friend in working this problem.

 

good luck, GJ

[El Sobrante Kid]

Garrison Joe, I appreciate the extensive explanation. I was a machinist, designer, and fabricator for over 35 years, and can appreciate the intricacies of the work involved trying to corral a cartridge and get it to go where you want it to go. Your comments would make more sense (to me) if you would assign x/y/z axis details. I was hoping to make it even simpler; you used two words, "wider" and "shallower". I was thinking it would be easier if you would connect one of those words to the left/right direction, and the other word to the front/back direction. Thx

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

would make more sense (to me) if you would assign x/y/z axis details.

Gun nomenclature for DIRECTIONS are given in the "standard" orientation of the firearm.   As if you are holding close to the back (butt or grip) of the gun, gun upright and pointed down range.   For maintenance / gunsmithing, cartesian coordinates are seldom used - most folks have no 3-axis measuring equipment or machine tools to be able to use them.

 

So, let's amplify the shorthand I used, and say, the bevel is made "wider" by extending the bevel surface at the vertical edge window frame to the left.  The existing factory angle for the bevel is made shallower - there is no real direction for the angle - you are retaining the same vertex of the angle, and reducing the "included angle" from the surface of the frame to the "hypotenuse" (surface) of the bevel from 60 to 30 degrees - thus no direction involved with "shallower."  

 

Guns past the CNC machining stage are not normally dimensioned in x-y-z cartesian coordinates from some reference point.  The directions within guns get described left-right, up-down and forward (down range) and backward or rearward (towards the user).  As has been done for a long time, especially by gunsmiths.

 

I'm an engineer by training and practice, and this "antique" nomenclature for directions, although sometimes clumsy, is very natural if you "put yourself in the shooter's mindset."  But, when I write for other shooters and smiths, I will not show cartesian coordinates on anything I cook up.  (Guns are close to a rectilinear two-dimensional system if you look closely at how parts are usually designed and operated, since motions are largely axial aligned to some sort of bore, including rotating in a bore, or rotating around pins.)

 

good luck,, GJ

Edited March 24 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708