As Befits a Championship Shoot

[Singin' Sue 71615]

20 minutes ago, Tarheel Doc said:

I would attend any match written by Deuce Steven’s and Lassiter. Indiana State, Guns of August, and Gunsmoke are really fun to attend and are all straightforward and sufficiently challenging. Based on what I heard about EOT this year I would not consider attending. 

Hmmmm....I am not very keen on making decisions on hear say.

[Crisco]

I would be surprised to hear anyone that actually shot it complaining that EOT this year was a tough “match”.  The wind was ugly at some point almost every day, but there was not a difficult shot or sequence in the entire match.  It was a good mix of distances and sequences.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

27 minutes ago, Crisco said:

I would be surprised to hear anyone that actually shot it complaining that EOT this year was a tough “match”.  The wind was ugly at some point almost every day, but there was not a difficult shot or sequence in the entire match.  It was a good mix of distances and sequences.

Well done, Crisco!

131 in the match and a fellow 'smoker' too!!!

Some stages that wind was with us...but most was not🤪

[Hells Comin]

1 hour ago, Crisco said:

I would be surprised to hear anyone that actually shot it complaining that EOT this year was a tough “match”.  The wind was ugly at some point almost every day, but there was not a difficult shot or sequence in the entire match.  It was a good mix of distances and sequences.

And the survey says ?

[Dusty Devil Dale]

13 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I didn't attend EOT this year, so I have no business commenting on the quality of the match.  If I had attended and enjoyed it, I would share that here.  If I attended and didn't enjoy it I would share that with the MD, privately.

Thank you.  Any stage writer or MD would appreciate your directness. 

 

Stage writers are always the last ones to hear either praise or criticism. We know at the onset that we're not going to be carried down the street by a cheering crowd.  

But hearing criticism directly, rather than second hand is hugely helpful, because it can be a discussion rather than just incoming anonymous arrows.  The two way discussion can improve stages and shooter fun for future matches. 

 

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

16 hours ago, Stump Water said:

When I shot EoT in 2007 I shot FCD.   Day 1 we got the early shift and the sun was directly in my eyes.  The stages that morning were awful!

 

Perspective.

A problem one never has at Ben Avery as All stages are shot from the south looking north

[Rattlesnake Slim]

13 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

And the survey says ?

 

Surveys are being compiled right now. We will be meeting in the next couple of weeks to discuss them. We WILL be be preparing answers to some of the more frequently asked questions and complaints, both to be posted on the Wire and as an email to registered shooters. It will take some time, watch for it around mid April. Thanks again for your input.

[Rattlesnake Slim]

16 hours ago, Stump Water said:

When I shot EoT in 2007 I shot FCD.   Day 1 we got the early shift and the sun was directly in my eyes.  The stages that morning were awful!

 

Perspective.

 

Same orientation as Bordertown. BP shooters learn early on to take a good look at the target array before pulling the trigger for the first shot.

[Sixgun Seamus]

The OP made a point in his opening statement. I probably inferred that in another thread when I said, “this is a World Championship and there should be some challenge”. I also prefaced that statement with, “you had to think on a couple”. I guess I didn’t communicate my thoughts completely or very well. I will stand by what I said in that post. I would like to add that a bit of challenge (challenge =“one you have to think on”) is appropriate at any match at any level. I was thinking of a particular stage when I wrote that statement that I cannot remember shooting that sequence previously in nearly 500 matches. Therefore, I had to “think about it”, and I saw it as a challenge.  It wasn’t a hard sequence, just different.

On my posse I had a new EOT shooter. He was one of the first, if not the first shooter on our first stage. I was TO and he turned to me on the firing line and said, “You have no idea how nervous I am right now”. I responded with something to the effect of, “relax, it’s just a monthly shoot with a whole lot more shooters”. He ended up being our only clean shooter. I basically say the same thing to any shooter thinking about attending a bigger match. I still say the stages were well written and easy to understand. I welcome a challenge at any level. It only makes me think and hopefully improve.

[Renegade Roper]

On 3/19/2025 at 10:03 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I didn't attend EOT this year, so I have no business commenting on the quality of the match.  If I had attended and enjoyed it, I would share that here.  If I attended and didn't enjoy it I would share that with the MD, privately.

I think this answers the question regarding the other post about people having fun at EOT.  Rather than bash the MD & crew publicly on the wire, those that attended and didn't enjoy the match (for whatever reasons) are remaining silent and filling out the surveys with their suggestions/comments.  In this manner they are being respectful of the hard work that was put into the match but voicing their concerns regarding a match they feel may have taken a wrong turn.  The surveys are taking the place of contacting the MD personally.  We will see what the surveys say and then if those that are running things listen or continue to do things their way (this of course assumes the surveys differ from the perception of people having fun, which they may or may not).  From what I have seen of those "running the show", they appear to want to hear people's opinions and are willing to make changes if needed if that's what the surveys suggest (even if they personally dont agree with said changes).  Time will tell and I think their willingness to be transparent about the survey results (and statistics for that matter) will go a long way in regards to people's perceptions as to whether or not they are listening.  

Just my opinion.

Roper

[Shooting Bull]

My problem with replying to Creeker posts is that even if I agree with him 100%, I have to disagree simply because it’s Creeker. 😁

 

For state championships and above I’m one of those twisted souls that prefers SLIGHTLY more challenging stages. That’s out of pure selfishness. If I do well at a championship level match I want to know I did so against the best shooters on stages that BEFIT A CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL MATCH. 😁

 

That being said, if I were a match director putting on that level of match I would absolutely NOT let my personal bias come into play when writing stages. As Creeker has pointed out hundreds of times over the years, first and foremost we’re in the entertainment business. Our product needs to maximize enjoyment for our customers. 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

All action shooting matches should strive to provide the best stages they can for monthly or bigger championship matches. But in the real world many clubs/match directors have limited help and range issues that limit them when setting up monthly matches. They hopefully do the best they can but sometimes just can't do everything they'd like to. This is even more true at modern action matches because they set up many more walls, moving targets, fault lines, ports etc.

 

At a larger championship match they should have more time writing and setting up stages. Looking for problems. More time to set up props. They shouldn't have to cut corners because everything has to be set up the morning of the match. That doesn't require making the shooting way more difficult but some of the "makes do" issues that negatively affect a monthly match should be less of an issue at a multi day championship match. The championship match should be more then the level of a typical monthly albeit with more stages.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

41 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

My problem with replying to Creeker posts is that even if I agree with him 100%, I have to disagree simply because it’s Creeker. 😁

I would expect nothing less from you, my friend.

 

But I think folks misunderstand me - I have zero issue with a club putting on any type of match they wish. 

I always have the choice of whether I wish to attend or not.

 

I just challenge the notion that any criticism regarding stage writing, target size or placement; instead of analyzing and reviewing can just be dismissed away by stating they added difficulty "as befitting a Championship match"

 

I also challenge the idea that somehow a difficult match is somehow superior to an easy match or carries more cachet.

 

A match is a match is a match - the winner is simply determined by comparing results against others performing the SAME challenges. 

Easy or difficult - the XYZ Championship is still going to be awarded the best performing shooter.

And that shooter should be rightfully proud of their trophy or buckle - I would just question if your shooters who do not buckle have the same amount of enjoyment as those who did.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

Creeker,

Good tread and comments, as your posts usually are.  

Something I have learned in my travels as related to  "P traps" is that a stage that may at first look rather challenging to me may be simply one that is not shot often in my regular matches.  However, it might be quiet common in another area so simple to another shooter.  A P trap, not at all, just one that is more of a challenge to me.  As a veteran competitor, I get thru it and certainly remember it and note to perhaps practice it and/or suggest it to stage writers I know in my area.  Yes, there was a coupe at EOT that I had not shot in some time.  One I even practiced a little and still got a P.  oops!

(Side note : I found it interesting that some scenerio names and their sequence did not match that as I normally shoot.  No problem just shoot the sequence as per the good  stage notes and call it what I want. )

This year I felt the "huff-huff" to a few stages travel from A to B/C.  Perhaps it is that I am getting older, 79, and just had back surgery in December.  Did that make this EOT harder?  You bet.  But I doubt that distance was no further than distances in stages I have engaged in the previous 24 EOT attended.

For me this years EOT was a bet difficult but still a very well run match that suffered some difficult rotations due to weather. My posse, 7, started 1st day, 1st rotation at knock-down stage so we got full benefit of a tough day with disaster at stage 8 and complete re-writre of stage 7 before we sent first shooter to line.  It could have been worse, wind with rain, hail, sleet, and/or snow. Sound familiar?

A big "GOOD JOB!" goes to staff who  cleaned up messes made and still kept things running the best they could.  I think it safe to say there has been times of much latter finishes of 3rd rotation.

Surveys should possibly change things a tad for 2026 EOT but I doubt much "correction" will be needed.

 

BB

[Singin' Sue 71615]

57 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

Creeker,

Good tread and comments, as your posts usually are.  

Something I have learned in my travels as related to  "P traps" is that a stage that may at first look rather challenging to me may be simply one that is not shot often in my regular matches.  However, it might be quiet common in another area so simple to another shooter.  A P trap, not at all, just one that is more of a challenge to me.  As a veteran competitor, I get thru it and certainly remember it and note to perhaps practice it and/or suggest it to stage writers I know in my area.  Yes, there was a coupe at EOT that I had not shot in some time.  One I even practiced a little and still got a P.  oops!

(Side note : I found it interesting that some scenerio names and their sequence did not match that as I normally shoot.  No problem just shoot the sequence as per the good  stage notes and call it what I want. )

This year I felt the "huff-huff" to a few stages travel from A to B/C.  Perhaps it is that I am getting older, 79, and just had back surgery in December.  Did that make this EOT harder?  You bet.  But I doubt that distance was no further than distances in stages I have engaged in the previous 24 EOT attended.

For me this years EOT was a bet difficult but still a very well run match that suffered some difficult rotations due to weather. My posse, 7, started 1st day, 1st rotation at knock-down stage so we got full benefit of a tough day with disaster at stage 8 and complete re-writre of stage 7 before we sent first shooter to line.  It could have been worse, wind with rain, hail, sleet, and/or snow. Sound familiar?

A big "GOOD JOB!" goes to staff who  cleaned up messes made and still kept things running the best they could.  I think it safe to say there has been times of much latter finishes of 3rd rotation.

Surveys should possibly change things a tad for 2026 EOT but I doubt much "correction" will be needed.

 

BB

I was happy to see you there BB!! You rock, and You know you are loved!

[Assassin]

On 3/19/2025 at 4:54 PM, Rattlesnake Slim said:

 

The target size and distance for EOT stages has been exactly the same since 2023. I have the setup books to prove it. What changes from year to year is which set of stages is set as closest, middle, and farthest. Last year the closest may have been Stages 1-4, this year they may be the farthest, resulting in the APPEARANCE of having been moved out. But each year has the same mix of target sizes and distances as the last.

So, if 4 stages are set up further and the wind is problematic, is that a disadvantage to those that shot during the wind. If they were varying distances on four stages per day wouldn't it be less of a disadvantage for those that had to shoot in the high wind. 

 

As for difficulty, I have a shoot book from WR 2001. I don't know if anyone was clean back then. Split pistols with different sequences was normal. Rifle was different than pistols. Lots of P's and misses. Not every stage was 10-10-4. I recall much more fun and enthusiasm back then. The wind was really bad in 1999 too. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

OK, enough popcorn munchin', time to chime in. Some really good points of view here. Now, FWIW, here's mine. I think people say "as befits a championship shoot" when they have shot a big match as a way of complimenting the producers of the match; stage writers, match directors and so on. I don't really think they mean that the match was somehow more difficult or complicated, although it may have been to some. Ref. Billy Boots' comments; a lot of people shoot at big matches and are running stages that they just normally do not shoot on a regular basis, even though many do. I try to incorporate into my monthlies, what I have seen at other matches as a way to, not only bring in good ideas I have seen elsewhere, but also to help "prepare" my shooters for other places they may go and see some of these ideas. I'll admit, I shamelessly "steal" ideas from other clubs. I know, I know... one of my $!ns. I do always try to give credit as to where I've taken a stage from though. I'm a fan of some movement (yes, I do throw a stand and deliver in once in a while), both lateral AND uprange movement as well but some of the big matches I've been to cannot do that on most of the bays due to the sheer volume of shooters and common firing lines; this is still no reason the stages cannot be fun and challenging. For my monthlies, I write the stages and come back to them a couple times to see how things flow and if I can see any problems; for annual stages I've written, I write them many months in advance and run them through several trusted pards to have them all look through them and I will try to set them up and run them to see how it all works. I have written stages I thought (on paper) were awesome only to find out they really were not. I've also written stages that I thought were nothing special and folks loved em. For reasons of timely flow with a large amount of shooters, obviously large matches cannot have long, involved stages, especially with a long reset, but championship matches CAN and SHOULD provide challenges (this does not mean hard) and entertainment for the shooters and this does require some time to get right.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

You can satisfy some people most of the time and most people some of the time, but never all the people all the time.

[doc roy l. pain]

11 hours ago, Assassin said:

 

 

As for difficulty, I have a shoot book from WR 2001. I don't know if anyone was clean back then. Split pistols with different sequences was normal. Rifle was different than pistols. Lots of P's and misses. Not every stage was 10-10-4. I recall much more fun and enthusiasm back then. The wind was really bad in 1999 too. 

Could you imagine the blowback on a stage writer today if he were to make the rifle sequence 2-1-2 and the pistols 1-3-1 on the same stage??  Shooters would go nuts !!🤣. 
I shot a local match a couple weeks ago that had a stage with only 3 shotgun. What a refreshing thing and nobody said a word about it!

[Eyesa Horg]

5 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said:

Could you imagine the blowback on a stage writer today if he were to make the rifle sequence 2-1-2 and the pistols 1-3-1 on the same stage??  Shooters would go nuts !!🤣. 
I shot a local match a couple weeks ago that had a stage with only 3 shotgun. What a refreshing thing and nobody said a word about it!

I shot that sequence at least once year maybe twice! Shotgun was an even number though. It was fun, ya just had to keep your poop together after the beep!!

[Scarlett]

On 3/19/2025 at 11:19 AM, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

They don’t shorten the field, either. Or make the goal posts 10’ wider. Or make first downs 8 yards instead of 10. 

Excellent post, my friend! I enjoyed EOT for a lot of reasons that had little to do with the shooting. As for the shooting, I won my category and fought for it after a rough first day. So, I’m happy. 
 

My “issues” with EOT stages were the 1) writing, 2) some had very long runs (I need the exercise so I was ok but some folks with mobility issues or short legs had difficulty) and some funky sweeps that didn’t flow and not enough shooter options. I like being able to start different guns/places and these were pretty prescribed. I would like a MIX. The middle stages could be 4 stages and leave the saloon out. It’s my least favorite stage. 
 

The kicker: if you want to shoot in the World Championships? You gotta go to EOT. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

[Wildcat O'Shea SASS#47844]

On 3/20/2025 at 11:48 AM, Sixgun Seamus said:

The OP made a point in his opening statement. I probably inferred that in another thread when I said, “this is a World Championship and there should be some challenge”. I also prefaced that statement with, “you had to think on a couple”. I guess I didn’t communicate my thoughts completely or very well. I will stand by what I said in that post. I would like to add that a bit of challenge (challenge =“one you have to think on”) is appropriate at any match at any level. I was thinking of a particular stage when I wrote that statement that I cannot remember shooting that sequence previously in nearly 500 matches. Therefore, I had to “think about it”, and I saw it as a challenge.  It wasn’t a hard sequence, just different.

On my posse I had a new EOT shooter. He was one of the first, if not the first shooter on our first stage. I was TO and he turned to me on the firing line and said, “You have no idea how nervous I am right now”. I responded with something to the effect of, “relax, it’s just a monthly shoot with a whole lot more shooters”. He ended up being our only clean shooter. I basically say the same thing to any shooter thinking about attending a bigger match. I still say the stages were well written and easy to understand. I welcome a challenge at any level. It only makes me think and hopefully improve.

And just to let you know, that helped a lot.  Took me a couple of stages to shake the nerves, but thanks Seamus.  I thoroughly enjoyed being on your posse.  😃. Look forward to shooting with you again someday. 
Wildcat O’Shea