As Befits a Championship Shoot

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I have read the following sentence on many occasions in regard to state, regional, National and World Championship events...

The shoot had a difficulty as befits a Championship shoot.

 

Really?

Does the "difficulty" of a shoot make winning it more prestigious?

 

Or is winning at an "easy" shoot less meaningful?

 

Let's say (hypothetically) that tomorrow - the board of EoT gets together; looks over their surveys, analyzes the clean shooter percentage and number of procedurals and then decides that next year's event will be "simpler" or closer or bigger or whatever with a goal of 25% clean shooters.

 

Would EoT become less prestigious?

Would you no longer recognize the category winners as World Champions?

 

I ask the above because anytime a "challenging" match is criticized - the comments are poo - poo'd and hand waved away with the statement, "difficulty as befits a Championship shoot".

 

And I'm just curious why?

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

[Captain Bill Burt]

As I’m sure you know there are different types of difficulty. Small and far targets put a premium on accuracy. Big and close put a premium on running guns at speed with consistency. Track meets put a premium on fitness and youth, etc. etc.

 

Different folks prefer different challenges. I like a mix, but if I’m going to get a steady diet of only one kind I’ll take big and close over small and far every time.

 

The only type I’m not particularly patient with are the ‘let’s try something new’ folks who come up with bizarre stages because they think that will make middle of the pack shooters more competitive with top shooters when it actually only widens the gap.

Edited March 19 by Captain Bill Burt

[Boggus Deal #64218]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

 

The only type I’m not particularly patient with are the ‘let’s try something new’ folks who come up with bizarre stages because they think that will make middle of the pack shooters more competitive with top shooters when it actually only widens the gap.

“Let’s slow down the fast shooters” slows down everyone else exponentially.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy JEDI Creeker.

 

I don't have a comment on match difficulty vs simplicity, but I do agree with Capt BB.

 

But personally speaking, it ain't the match that is befitting a Championship but rather the

competition that makes it a worthy event.  And as we know, the big matches usually brings

out some of the top shooters from everywhere.

 

...........Widder

 

[Hells Comin]

cowboy ( ACTION ) shooting!

Not gotcha or bullseye shooting. 

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

I just want to get back to where , I feel good enough to shoot 

 

  CB 

[Singin' Sue 71615]

Yup...I used those words, only I never said difficulty...just befitting.

I stand by them.

I am NOT a top shooter...far from it.

If I break 30 seconds, I am on cloud 9.

 

I personally do not care for close, same target size, straight across, 3,2,3 scenerios...rinse and repeat stages. 

 

A champion is a champion, regardless.

 

Has anyone taken consideration of the fact that competitors are becoming complacent could be the reason for low clean matches???

Edited March 19 by Singin' Sue 71615
Addition

[Anvil Al #59168]

Do the make the field longer for the Super Bowl?

Raise the goal for the NBA championship?

 

I like a mix.

But to make it harder just because you add the name championship to it?

 

If it's not fun. I won't go.

One reason I have never been back to Winter Range.

It was just not very fun.

Flame away. 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

12 minutes ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

Do the make the field longer for the Super Bowl?

Raise the goal for the NBA championship?

 

I like a mix.

But to make it harder just because you add the name championship to it?

 

If it's not fun. I won't go.

One reason I have never been back to Winter Range.

It was just not very fun.

Flame away. 

They don’t shorten the field, either. Or make the goal posts 10’ wider. Or make first downs 8 yards instead of 10. 

[Singin' Sue 71615]

7 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

They don’t shorten the field, either. Or make the goal posts 10’ wider. Or make first downs 8 yards instead of 10. 

Thank you Boggus!!!

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I think it's fair to say that people want some degree of predictability in the matches they sign up for. 

 

I also think it's fair to say that you can't please everybody and Match Directors are well advised to remember that they're in the entertainment business and if matches are not entertaining attendance will decline.  I've seen it more than once.  Someone takes over a match and starts writing stages and placing targets the way they want them, but NOT the way the majority of their shooters prefer.  Then a few years later they're scratching their heads and wondering why their attendance is in single digits.

 

I don't think the idea that championship matches should be harder than typical matches is valid.  The difficulty comes from who else is signed up since everyone is shooting the same match.  I'll be shooting six state matches this spring and I already have a pretty good idea which ones will be difficult to place in the top ten and which ones will be difficult to place in the top twenty and it has pretty much ZERO to do with target size, distance or shooting sequences and everything to do with who else will be there. 

 

So intentionally making a match 'difficult' through really long distances or really tough sequences is only going to irritate a segment of the middle of the pack and lower shooters who are denied the chance to get in personal best times or to walk away with a clean match.  Mix it up folks.  Give the shooter some speed runs, give them some 'challenge' stages, give them some that are in the middle of those two extremes.  If matches are built that way there ends up being at least some stages that will appeal to pretty much every shooter there.

 

Unless you prefer the Henry Ford attitude of folks can have any color car they want as long as it's black.

 

*Matches like Bordertown are an exception to that.  Everyone knows what they're going to get there, so if you don't like big and close you shouldn't have signed up.

Edited March 19 by Captain Bill Burt

[Toranado, SASS # 58447]

17 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 

So intentionally making a match 'difficult' through really long distances or really tough sequences is only going to irritate a segment of the middle of the pack and lower shooters who are denied the chance to get in personal best times or to walk away with a clean match.  Mix it up folks.  Give the shooter some speed runs, give them some 'challenge' stages, give them some that are in the middle of those two extremes.  If matches are built that way there ends up being at least some stages that will appeal to pretty much every shooter there.

 

 

 

The sad part I think is that the stage writers and group deciding target size and placement for "the championship", thought in their mind they HAD set up a mix.  BUT that mix was far, farther, and farthest and small, smaller and smallest.

 

I felt that match setup in 2024 was excellent.  Not sure why the change in direction.

[Captain Bill Burt]

16 minutes ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

 

The sad part I think is that the stage writers and group deciding target size and placement for "the championship", thought in their mind they HAD set up a mix.  BUT that mix was far, farther, and farthest and small, smaller and smallest.

 

I felt that match setup in 2024 was excellent.  Not sure why the change in direction.

You must know which match Creeker and Sue are referring to, which I don't.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't Land Run as I attended that and thought it was really fun.

[Toranado, SASS # 58447]

5 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You must know which match Creeker and Sue are referring to, which I don't.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't Land Run as I attended that and thought it was really fun.

Not land run.   I have not shot that match yet but hear it is excellent in all aspects.

[July Smith]

9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You must know which match Creeker and Sue are referring to, which I don't.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't Land Run as I attended that and thought it was really fun.

Yeah I feel like I am missing something too.  All the big annual matches BT, WR, EoT are all on my bucket list of matches to attend.  Everyone I know that has been to them has always had fun. 

 

I'm not really sure what the OP is asking about difficulty.  I will say its more fun to win 3rd place in a category with ten shooters, than 1st place in a category with one.  My personal proudest achievement is a 1st place in a Plainsman sidematch, that was arguably a more difficult target array and challenge with cap guns and all, but still a lot of fun.

Edited March 19 by July Smith

[Singin' Sue 71615]

8 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You must know which match Creeker and Sue are referring to, which I don't.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't Land Run as I attended that and thought it was really fun.

My reference, as I believe Creeker's applies to any match.

The others are refering to this years EOT.

 

 

[Singin' Sue 71615]

For Toranado...

You came in 65th (?)

 

I came in 589th...

So I must have enjoyed the match 520 times MORE than you!☺️

 

I had the same match that I normally do...misses, and average times ( for the majority) makeing new friends, and having fun.

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I didn't attend EOT this year, so I have no business commenting on the quality of the match.  If I had attended and enjoyed it, I would share that here.  If I attended and didn't enjoy it I would share that with the MD, privately.

[July Smith]

10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I didn't attend EOT this year, so I have no business commenting on the quality of the match.  If I had attended and enjoyed it, I would share that here.  If I attended and didn't enjoy it I would share that with the MD, privately.

Unless OP shoots under a different alias...  He didn't shoot at EoT either, so I think this is about something else.  I watched a couple of youtube videos from shooters at EoT and it looked like a fun match to me.

Edited March 19 by July Smith

[Roy Goode - SASS 114620]

2 hours ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

Do the make the field longer for the Super Bowl?

Raise the goal for the NBA championship?

 

I like a mix.

But to make it harder just because you add the name championship to it?

 

If it's not fun. I won't go.

One reason I have never been back to Winter Range.

It was just not very fun.

Flame away. 

 

IMO this is not the proper analogy when it comes to our game/sport/hobby/whatever.  The sport of football/basketball/baseball/soccer/cricket/rugby/polo all have defined rules of the playing field/court.  They are standardized when it comes to the dimensions the sport is played at.  The bases are always 90 feet, the mound is always 60'6" from home plate, the field is always 100 yards long broken down into 1 yard markings, etc.

 

SASS does not have a standard when it comes to stages beyond the number of rounds fired from the pistols.  So to me, the new guy, it does make perfect sense for the larger Championship events to be more challenging.  I would expect as a new shooter that I would struggle at EOT or Winter Range because I'm NOT a top shooter.

 

I've shot a few matches locally here and they've all been fun and different.  Some stages are difficult  and some are easier/faster.  The reason I would attend a big shoot is for the FUN of shooting, not because I expect EOT to mirror my local club, or my results to be consistent with my local club results.

 

That's my perspective as a new SASS shooter.  I have shot many IPSC competitions and the local ones are always easier then the larger club events.

[Toranado, SASS # 58447]

1 hour ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

My reference, as I believe Creeker's applies to any match.

The others are refering to this years EOT.

 

 

 

I believe Creeker's comments were a new topic from the topic of "did u have fun at EOT 2025".   I could be wrong, but that what I took it as.   

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

34 minutes ago, July Smith said:

Unless OP shoots under a different alias...  He didn't shoot at EoT either, so I think this is about something else.  I watched a couple of youtube videos from shooters at EoT and it looked like a fun match to me.

I did not shoot at EoT.

 

The phrase referenced has been used for many many years (and pertaining to many other shoots) prior to this year's EoT.

 

@Singin' Sue 71615  the use of the term was not intended to slight or insult you.  My apologies.

 

I'm just curious why criticism of a match (number of procedurals, percentage of clean shooters, fun) is waved away by the phrase "Championship match" as if that explains/ justifies further targets or less straightforward stages.

 

Having been a match director for a number of years - I wrote straight forward matches designed to encourage successful  engagement and speed from every level of shooter.

I never wrote a match with the intention of slowing anyone.

 

I always believed (that regardless of match type) the same shooters were going to end up at the top of the score sheet - but the shooters that didn't buckle could feel successful as well.

 

I never felt that the winners were less elevated because the mid pack shooters were less challenged.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 minutes ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

 

I believe Creeker's comments were a new topic from the topic of "did u have fun at EOT 2025".   I could be wrong, but that what I took it as.   

You are correct as to the starting point - but I wanted to expand from (and not be perceived as bashing on EoT) specifically.

 

The term has been used at many different shoots and I have never understood the rationale that a Championship shoot is supposed to be more difficult than any other shoot.

 

 

[Toranado, SASS # 58447]

1 hour ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

For Toranado...

You came in 65th (?)

 

I came in 589th...

So I must have enjoyed the match 520 times MORE than you!☺️

 

I had the same match that I normally do...misses, and average times ( for the majority) makeing new friends, and having fun.

 

 

 

I also enjoy spending time with friends and visiting with others from around the country.   That is the great part of this sport that no matter how the shoot is, it makes it fun.  

But we are also here to compete in a shooting event as the primary reason for our attendance, and if that is not enjoyable, it tends to lessen the enjoyment of the whole match IMO.  The match entry costs are going up and up and we are getting less and less, and generates higher expectation,  all which contribute to some's unhappiness also.

 

I had a different match than you.  More misses than I've had EOT/WR than I can remember. (After shooting F&I and RRup clean)   I also did shoot the Thursday morning session in 50-80mph winds on stages 1-4 which were I think the smallest are farthest targets, which made it extremely difficult.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

13 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I did not shoot at EoT.

 

The phrase referenced has been used for many many years (and pertaining to many other shoots) prior to this year's EoT.

 

@Singin' Sue 71615  the use of the term was not intended to slight or insult you.  My apologies.

 

I'm just curious why criticism of a match (number of procedurals, percentage of clean shooters, fun) is waved away by the phrase "Championship match" as if that explains/ justifies further targets or less straightforward stages.

 

Having been a match director for a number of years - I wrote straight forward matches designed to encourage successful  engagement and speed from every level of shooter.

I never wrote a match with the intention of slowing anyone.

 

I always believed (that regardless of match type) the same shooters were going to end up at the top of the score sheet - but the shooters that didn't buckle could feel successful as well.

 

I never felt that the winners were less elevated because the mid pack shooters were less challenged.

No appologies needed, Creeker.

I was just verifyng that I used the phrase ' benifiting a championship match'

Was nice meeting you in Pampa last year!

[Singin' Sue 71615]

9 minutes ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

 

I also enjoy spending time with friends and visiting with others from around the country.   That is the great part of this sport that no matter how the shoot is, it makes it fun.  

But we are also here to compete in a shooting event as the primary reason for our attendance, and if that is not enjoyable, it tends to lessen the enjoyment of the whole match IMO.  The match entry costs are going up and up and we are getting less and less, and generates higher expectation,  all which contribute to some's unhappiness also.

 

I had a different match than you.  More misses than I've had EOT/WR than I can remember. (After shooting F&I and RRup clean)   I also did shoot the Thursday morning session in 50-80mph winds on stages 1-4 which were I think the smallest are farthest targets, which made it extremely difficult.

The struggles in that high wind DID impact the match, no doubt.

[Singin' Sue 71615]

20 minutes ago, Singin' Sue 71615 said:

No appologies needed, Creeker.

I was just verifyng that I used the phrase ' benifiting a championship match'

Was nice meeting you in Pampa last year!

Befitting...not benefiting

[July Smith]

50-80mph winds can take the fun out of anything.  Aside from wind, what was more difficult?  What were average distances and target size?  The videos make this very hard to tell.  

 

To OP, I personally like the occasional "difficult" stage that involves further away or smaller targets.  What I don't like is a convoluted pattern. 

[Totes Magoats]

2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think it's fair to say that people want some degree of predictability in the matches they sign up for.

 

This is very true.  If I hear of a big match making major changes year after year chasing survey results, I'll likely not put it on my list.   There are plenty of large matches where you know exactly what you're getting, i.e. Land Run, BT, and most club annuals around me here in Texas.

 

They don't have to be big and close as I don't mind small and fairly close, but small, far and poorly written is just not fun enough for us to spend $1K or more to attend an annual regardless of the wording on the buckle.

 

Totes

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

I wasn't able to attend EOT for the last 2 years but I have made it to 7 of them and by far the most fun I had was in 2014 (missed 2015), 2016, 2017 and 2018. I feel like they were  Championship Matches! 

 

Randy 

[Rattlesnake Slim]

6 hours ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

I felt that match setup in 2024 was excellent.  Not sure why the change in direction.

 

The target size and distance for EOT stages has been exactly the same since 2023. I have the setup books to prove it. What changes from year to year is which set of stages is set as closest, middle, and farthest. Last year the closest may have been Stages 1-4, this year they may be the farthest, resulting in the APPEARANCE of having been moved out. But each year has the same mix of target sizes and distances as the last.

[Stump Water]

When I shot EoT in 2007 I shot FCD.   Day 1 we got the early shift and the sun was directly in my eyes.  The stages that morning were awful!

 

Perspective.

[Flanigan Flats]

I like shooting with good cowboys and cowgirls. Match is kinda secondary at this point 

[Tarheel Doc]

I would attend any match written by Deuce Steven’s and Lassiter. Indiana State, Guns of August, and Gunsmoke are really fun to attend and are all straightforward and sufficiently challenging. Based on what I heard about EOT this year I would not consider attending.