WTC-Split Shotgun Stage

[Blackwater 53393]

If the shooter in question is forced to stop, load, and fire the shotgun, the P should be rescinded!!  (EDIT: the P should not be scored)
 

It’s against the rules to reload and shoot a missed target in a normal shooting string, except for shotgun where makeups ARE allowed! SO! If you’re shooting at a target no longer standing with the shotgun, you’re re-engaging a target “legally” by general rule!  The fact that the target is down, for whatever reason, is no longer germain!

 

Take your pick!! You can’t have it both ways!!!

 

Clean with a “P” if the shooter doesn’t stop again,  OR  Clean/no call!!  😜

 

 

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Take your pick!! You can’t have it both ways!!!

 

Clean with a “P” if the shooter doesn’t stop again,  OR  Clean/no call!!  😜

Welcome to page 3 LOL. Your logic is sound.

 

Now let's ask the shooter why he stopped to shoot a round where the 2nd SG target was....

 

"To make up the 'P""

[Griff]

Life is not fair.  That time to load, fire, make safe will vary a LOT, depending on an individual's skill level, it might be significant, or not.  But a penalty shouldn't be viewed as way to ensure there's a disparity between competitors that earn a penalty and those that don't.  How long it takes shooter A to fire a flawed (& penalized) performance on a stage as compared to shooter B who shoots a perfect performance is a flawed comparison, simply because of the inherent differences between the ability of various shooters.

 

Or as I am inclined to say, "...somedays you're the bug, somedays you're the windshield1"

[John Kloehr]

1 minute ago, Griff said:

Life is not fair.  That time to load, fire, make safe will vary a LOT, depending on an individual's skill level, it might be significant, or not.  But a penalty shouldn't be viewed as way to ensure there's a disparity between competitors that earn a penalty and those that don't.  How long it takes shooter A to fire a flawed (& penalized) performance on a stage as compared to shooter B who shoots a perfect performance is a flawed comparison, simply because of the inherent differences between the ability of various shooters.

I have noted several time where top shooters in matches have misses, and the clean shooters do not win. To a certain extent, it seems occasionally missing, if done quickly enough, can result in a better overall match score.

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

13 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I have noted several time where top shooters in matches have misses, and the clean shooters do not win. To a certain extent, it seems occasionally missing, if done quickly enough, can result in a better overall match score.

That all depends on how slowly the clean shooter shot to make sure they shot clean.   

[Griff]

8 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I have noted several time where top shooters in matches have misses, and the clean shooters do not win. To a certain extent, it seems occasionally missing, if done quickly enough, can result in a better overall match score.

All you have to do is look at this year's EOT... the top 4 finishers were within 12+/- seconds in total time, yet only the 1st & 3rd place finishers were listed as "clean".

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

17 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I have noted several time where top shooters in matches have misses, and the clean shooters do not win. To a certain extent, it seems occasionally missing, if done quickly enough, can result in a better overall match score.

This is a very common "juxtaposition" error regarding what scores truly reflect.

 

A shooters score is a reflection of THEIR individual performance on a stage or within a match.

Their time is a simple combination of raw time and any penalty.

There are rarely (rarely - but I can cite some) an instance where a shooter can logically say, "I would have been faster by ADDING 5 or 10 seconds to my time"

Basically a shooter CANNOT shoot faster than clean.

 

A version of Shooter A shooting clean versus a version of Shooter A with penalty - the clean version will ALWAYS win.

 

But shooter A is not competing (on the scoresheet) against himself.

He is competing against shooter B, C, D etc.

So there are times where shooter A because of speed and skill will be superior to shooter B, C and D - and even with penalty may have a faster time.

This is not a indicator that missing or earning penalties is advantageous; but a reminder that shooter A is just that much faster.

 

A wolf versus wolf battle comes down to which is luckier or makes the fewest mistakes.

But a wolf will always win a fight against even the most ferocious Chihuahua.

And even a sick wolf will still win a fight against that same Chihuahua.

 

A 12 second shooter versus 12 second shooter battle comes down to which is luckier or makes the fewest mistakes.

But a 12 second shooter will always beat a perfect 45 second shooter.

And even a 12 second shooter with three misses and a "P" every stage will still beat a perfect 45 second shooter.

[John Kloehr]

29 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

This is a very common "juxtaposition" error regarding what scores truly reflect.

 

A shooters score is a reflection of THEIR individual performance on a stage or within a match.

Their time is a simple combination of raw time and any penalty.

There are rarely (rarely - but I can cite some) an instance where a shooter can logically say, "I would have been faster by ADDING 5 or 10 seconds to my time"

Basically a shooter CANNOT shoot faster than clean.

 

A version of Shooter A shooting clean versus a version of Shooter A with penalty - the clean version will ALWAYS win.

 

But shooter A is not competing (on the scoresheet) against himself.

He is competing against shooter B, C, D etc.

So there are times where shooter A because of speed and skill will be superior to shooter B, C and D - and even with penalty may have a faster time.

This is not a indicator that missing or earning penalties is advantageous; but a reminder that shooter A is just that much faster.

 

A wolf versus wolf battle comes down to which is luckier or makes the fewest mistakes.

But a wolf will always win a fight against even the most ferocious Chihuahua.

And even a sick wolf will still win a fight against that same Chihuahua.

 

A 12 second shooter versus 12 second shooter battle comes down to which is luckier or makes the fewest mistakes.

But a 12 second shooter will always beat a perfect 45 second shooter.

And even a 12 second shooter with three misses and a "P" every stage will still beat a perfect 45 second shooter.

Very true, but the range can be surprisingly tight.

 

Considering a 4 stage match, 10-10-4... I'm going to round that to 25 rounds, so 100 rounds total.

 

A miss is 5 seconds. Going just 0.05 seconds faster on each shot is 5 seconds in this hypothetical match. A reflexive blink of an eye is twice that long and about the shortest voluntary reaction time to a (non-pain) stimulus is double that.

 

So that tiniest bit faster on each shot is breakeven for the cost of a miss in the match; a full blink of an eye faster on each shot is break-even for two misses in this match.

 

Given two shooters otherwise equally matched, a shooter willing to risk a miss by going just a blink of an eye faster will likely win. At least win more often. And might still shoot clean.

 

Kind of offering this up in part to consider the P under discussion is roughly a blink of an eye per shot in a match.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Step Right Up Folks - Don't Crowd - Plenty of room up front!!  Yessiree Bob!!  We've got THREE Scintillating Pages.  Three!! Can we get FOUR!!  Let me hear FOUR!!  There just has to be at least another page and a half of drivel out there.

 

Let us pay absolutely NO attention to Stage Instructions.  Must be a proliferation of Politicians. 

[Blackwater 53393]

On 3/12/2025 at 2:38 PM, John Kloehr said:

Welcome to page 3 LOL. Your logic is sound.

 

Now let's ask the shooter why he stopped to shoot a round where the 2nd SG target was....

 

"To make up the 'P""

                            OR!
 

‘Cause the TO ordered the shooter to do so!!

 

 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Step Right Up Folks - Don't Crowd - Plenty of room up front!!  Yessiree Bob!!  We've got THREE Scintillating Pages.  Three!! Can we get FOUR!!  Let me hear FOUR!!  There just has to be at least another page and a half of drivel out there.

 

Let us pay absolutely NO attention to Stage Instructions.  Must be a proliferation of Politicians. 

I wish I had gotten the popcorn concession when this started!

 

Randy

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Excuse me.  You cannot "Rescind" nor "Make Up" a "P".   The "P" was well and truly earned.  The STAGE INSTRUCTION required shooting the second Shotgun Target on the way back.   Ignoring the Stage instruction for one shooter penalizes ALL the other shooters.

 

GET OVER IT!!  Oh, and by the way:

 

A HUGE PLUS ONE for Shooting Bull 

[Griff]

9 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Excuse me.  You cannot "Rescind" nor "Make Up" a "P".   The "P" was well and truly earned.  The STAGE INSTRUCTION required shooting the second Shotgun Target on the way back.   Ignoring the Stage instruction for one shooter penalizes ALL the other shooters.

 

GET OVER IT!!  Oh, and by the way:

 

A HUGE PLUS ONE for Shooting Bull 

Wait, you've already assessed a 10 second time penalty for the failure to follow stage instructions.  Not applying that penalty would be like penalizing all the other shooters.   Directing the shooter to stop is not a requirement on the TO,  What penalty does the shooter accrue if the TO doesn't direct him to stop?  For either there's a penalty that can be levied, or there's not.  Remember, we've already penalized him for failure to follow stage instruction under the reasonable assumption it was a simple brain hiccup and not intentional...  No second such penalty can be applied.  The TO is under no obligation to direct the shooter either way.  If the TO doesn't direct the shooter, what's the penalty?  For the TO to so order the shooter, you must have a basis for a penalty.  Frankly, if one TO so orders the errant shooter on his posse and another TO doesn't so order the errant shooter on his posse, haven't you disadvantaged the first errant shooter?  While the TO can provide direction to a shooter in order that the shooter doesn't incur a penalty, the TO isn't obligated to do so, and the shooter earns such penalty.  Again, what's the penalty in this instance?.  Please, don't bother with the "... penalizing all the other shooter's...", that's a deflection from the question.  What is the penalty if the shooter skips the second stop at the shotgun position and the TO doesn't direct him to do so?

[Griff]

Now to make myself perfectly clear... I believe the upstanding true cowboy way is for the errant shooter to stop and reenhage the second shotgun KD in a "where it was" method, truly showing the previous hiccup was unintentional.  

[Bison Bud]

While I realize this was a "March Madness" match and designed to be zany per the original post, it would have been far better to just shoot two shotgun targets on each pass.  Just knocking down one target kind of leaves the SXS shooter at a disadvantage as they normally load two anyway.  If they knocked down the first target with the first round, then they need to eject a live round or shoot it downrange anyway.  They could load just one, but I wouldn't do that so I would have the second shot should the target not fall and after all my practice loading 2, that would be faster anyway.  I guess ejecting a live round is not a big concern, but if it were me, I'd probably pull both triggers at once and make sure the 1st target goes down.  No big deal, but something to think about.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Thinkin' this one is about wore out.