WTC-Split Shotgun Stage

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

Before anyone criticizes the stage writer, this was the club’s annual “March Madness” match that is designed to be difficult and zany.

 

Shotgun round count is 2+.  Stage features split pistols and split shotgun.  Pistols from left table, shotgun staged on center table, rifle staged on right table.  Begin at left table, shoot five rounds.  Move to center table and knock down one shotgun target.  Move to right table and engage rifle targets.  Move back to center target and knock down the other shotgun target, then move to left table and shoot five rounds on the pistol targets (then a mandatory pistol reload but that’s not relevant to this post).

 

Our shooter shoots five pistol targets, moves to center table, loads two rounds into shotgun and knocks down both shotgun targets (earning a Procedural), then moves to right table and engages rifle targets without incident.  As shooter is moving back to the left, the TO directs the shooter to stop at the center table and fire a shotgun round downrange.  Shooter complies, then moves to left table and completes the stage with pistols.

 

What if anything was the shooter required to do at the end of the rifle string?

 

-Nothing; shooter has fired the required number of shotgun rounds;

 

-Move to middle table and pause (or pick up the shotgun and discard it); or

 

-Move to middle table and fire one round downrange.

 

 

Edited March 9 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit txt

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

21 minutes ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

What if anything was the shooter required to do at the end of the rifle string?

 

-Nothing; shooter has fired the required number of shotgun rounds;

 

Shooter already has the "P" for engaging shotgun targets "out of order".

No need for the TO to compound the penalty by directing "... the shooter to stop and at the center table and fire a shotgun round downrange."

 

IMO...grounds for reshoot based on RO "impeding the progress of the shooter". (REF: SHB p.21 / RO1 p.10)

[Jackalope]

 

1 hour ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

...knock down one shotgun target...

 

A strange circumstance of a hit (knocking down the second shotgun target) resulting in a P.  Not something that happens everyday.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

7 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

A strange circumstance of a hit (knocking down the second shotgun target) resulting in a P.  Not something that happens everyday.

 

Shooter loaded and fired two rounds, KDing both SG targets = P

[El Sobrante Kid]

If the stage instructions are, "Move to center table and knock down one shotgun targets (sp?).  Move to right table and engage rifle targets.  Move back to center target and knock down the other shotgun target...".

 

As noted there is a "P" for shooting the second shotgun target out of order. Why wouldn't there have been a "Miss" for not engaging the second target on the way back? (if the TO had not directed the shooter to do so)

Edited March 9 by El Sobrante Kid
clarity

[Jackalope]

OP stage instructions state:

1 hour ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

Move to center table and knock down one shotgun target

 

Am I to understand that just because the shooter...

10 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

loaded and fired two rounds,

...caused the "P"?  There was nothing in the OP instructions that would have prevented the shooter from firing more than one shot. For example, if the first shot did not knock anything down, the shooter would have been allowed to reengage.

 

1 hour ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

Shotgun round count is 2+

 

It seems that you imply a second shot caused the "P", but, based on the info provided, it doesn't really look like that was prohibited.

 

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the hit which knocked down the second target caused the "P"?

 

Edited March 9 by Jackalope
sp

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

20 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

If the stage instructions are, "Move to center table and knock down one shotgun targets (sp?).  Move to right table and engage rifle targets.  Move back to center target and knock down the other shotgun target...".

 

As noted there is a "P" for shooting the second shotgun target out of order. Why wouldn't there have been a "Miss" for not engaging the second target on the way back? (if the TO had not directed the shooter to do so)

 

There is no miss as there is no longer a SG target to engage.

BOTH shotgun targets had already been engaged and KD'd.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

23 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

OP stage instructions state:

 

Am I to understand that just because the shooter...

...caused the "P"?  There was nothing in the OP instructions that would have prevented the shooter from firing more than one shot. For example, if the first shot did not knock anything down, the shooter would have been allowed to reengage.

 

The "P" was for firing two rounds and knocking down BOTH targets 

Instructions stated to "Move to center table and knock down one shotgun target."

 

23 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

It seems that you imply a second shot caused the "P", but, based on the info provided, it doesn't really look like that was prohibited.

 

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that the hit which knocked down the second target caused the "P?

 

That's what I'm saying.

[Griff]

50 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

A strange circumstance of a hit (knocking down the second shotgun target) resulting in a P.  Not something that happens everyday.

I'd beg to differ, according to the rules, (SHB, pg 22 under "10-second Penalties), anytime one shoots a target out of order, it results in a "P".   While nothing prohibited the shooter from loading two and and making two shots during their first visit to the center table, knocking down the second shotgun target caused the "P".  Overcoming muscle memory appears to have been part of the challenge on this stage.  A case could be made that this stage provided a '97 shooter a slight advantage, as "load one, shoot one" is their norm, even if they usually grab 2, 3 or 4 shells, they only chamber one at a time, whereas a double shooter rarely chambers less than two, even on a single target make-up..  

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Shooter already has the "P" for engaging shotgun targets "out of order".

No need for the TO to compound the penalty by directing "... the shooter to stop and at the center table and fire a shotgun round downrange."

 

IMO...grounds for reshoot based on RO "impeding the progress of the shooter". (REF: SHB p.21 / RO1 p.10)

Thanks, PWB.  This was my thought as well.  I was scorekeeper on that stage so it was not my decision.

 

I posted this in the What’s the Call Facebook group (I know that is not official).  Interesting comments there.

[El Sobrante Kid]

32 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

There is no miss as there is no longer a SG target to engage.

BOTH shotgun targets had already been engaged and KD'd.

 

My understanding is that if the stage instructions call for a target to be engaged, and that target is not "up" do to some type of failure, the shooter is supposed to shoot over, or in the general direction, of the target that is supposed to be engaged.

 

In this case the SG target had already been accidentally knocked down, but the stage instructions specifically said, "Move back to center target and knock down the other shotgun target,".

 

Do the words "shoot", "engage", and "knock down" have different meanings in this circumstance? Shouldn't the shooter have fired one round at/over the (second) SG target? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn. Thx

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

5 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

In this case the SG target had already been accidentally knocked down, but the stage instructions specifically said, "Move back to center target and knock down the other shotgun target,".

But the second SG target was not accidently knocked down, the shooter shot it down when he was not supposed to, so out of order.

[Hoss]

I’d think of it as least possible penalty, which is the P. There is no competitive advantage gained in knocking both down. It was a “brain fade” P.
Having shooter stop at position to shoot again was improper coaching that impeded shooter. Shooter is entitled to a reshoot. 
 

look at it this way. If shooter shot rifle or pistols at wrong position, would you require them to come back and shadow shoot the targets from correct position? 

[Eyesa Horg]

1 hour ago, Jackalope said:

 

 

A strange circumstance of a hit (knocking down the second shotgun target) resulting in a P.  Not something that happens everyday.

He was only supposed to engage one, not both.

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

39 minutes ago, El Sobrante Kid said:

 

My understanding is that if the stage instructions call for a target to be engaged, and that target is not "up" do to some type of failure, the shooter is supposed to shoot over, or in the general direction, of the target that is supposed to be engaged.

 

In this case the SG target had already been accidentally knocked down, but the stage instructions specifically said, "Move back to center target and knock down the other shotgun target,".

 

Do the words "shoot", "engage", and "knock down" have different meanings in this circumstance? Shouldn't the shooter have fired one round at/over the (second) SG target? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn. Thx

If the shooter took one shot and both SG targets were knocked down, shucked shells, moved onto the rifle position engaging all rifle targets then move back to the shotgun position, they would be required to place one shot above the down shotgun target into the berm. Then move onto the last pistol.

 

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

2 hours ago, Jackalope said:

A strange circumstance of a hit (knocking down the second shotgun target) resulting in a P.  Not something that happens everyday.

6 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

He was only supposed to engage one, not both.

 

So, @Eyesa Horg...What would your call have been if he engaged the second one, but left it up standing after the second shot?

[Eyesa Horg]

Just now, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

So, @Eyesa Horg...What would your call have been if he engaged the second one, but left it up standing after the second shot?

I believe he would've then just wasted a shell and could've knocked the target down when he returned to that center table for no penalty. No? He needed to empty the gun of hulls before moving to the rifle either way.

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

8 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

So, @Eyesa Horg...What would your call have been if he engaged the second one, but left it up standing after the second shot?

 

I would give a pass to the shooter: no call. Lucky miss for the shooter or assume they just dumped the round into the berm.

 

 

I primarily shoot a double barrel and would load 2 for this stage.  If the required KD went down I would have two options.  Open shotgun, shuck spent and loaded shell, (that would be my choice) or could dump the last round into the berm, then shuck both empties prior to moving onto the rifle.

 

Edited March 9 by J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Shooter earned the "P" without question. 😎

 

The TO needs to put on the pointy dunce cap and go sit in the corner 🤠

[Silent Justice]

Attached is the stage instructions from the shoot yesterday. Hope this helps!

Stage 3.docx

[Shooting Bull]

5 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Shooter already has the "P" for engaging shotgun targets "out of order".

No need for the TO to compound the penalty by directing "... the shooter to stop and at the center table and fire a shotgun round downrange."

 

IMO...grounds for reshoot based on RO "impeding the progress of the shooter". (REF: SHB p.21 / RO1 p.10)

 

You’re obviously the final word but, I COMPLETELY disagree. Stage instructions specifically say to return to middle shooting position and engage target. The target not being there doesn’t negate that requirement. If I were the TO and the shooter skipped that step I’d levy a Spirit of the Game penalty for trying to gain a competitive advantage. 

[John Kloehr]

22 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

You’re obviously the final word but, I COMPLETELY disagree. Stage instructions specifically say to return to middle shooting position and engage target. The target not being there doesn’t negate that requirement. If I were the TO and the shooter skipped that step I’d levy a Spirit of the Game penalty for trying to gain a competitive advantage. 

PWB posted way above while I was still reviewing the rules. So skipped making what was now a me-too post. But I did go through the rules to get to agreement with him. Competitive advantage was lost when the second target was engaged out-of-order. Only one P per stage. SoG would apply if the shooter engaged both targets the 1st time on purpose, but not for brain-fade.

 

I could see a SoG if the shooter then engaged pistol and/or or rifle sections putting one round on the first plate and then dumping on the second rather than alternating between them (an attempt to gain competitive advantage to make up for the P). But the one P was earned, the target was engaged, just in the wrong order. Having earned the one P, can't get another.

 

Anyway, came back to this thread for a different reason. That stage would have been a DQ trap for me without the P event. I shoot rarely enough to still be a beginner after all this time. I did recall it was safe to move with a shotgun if a live round was in chamber as long as the action is open. I might have brain-faded and opened the action without shucking the one spent and one live shell had I KD'd the first SG target on the first round from my SxS, and set it on the table open with chambers not empty. That would absolutely have been on me.

 

This is one reason I like these questions. It prompts me to go into the rules and refresh myself on the nuances of this game.

Edited March 9 by John Kloehr

[Jackalope]

My intent was not to incite a riot here.

 

The only point I was going for was a semantical comment, specifically regarding the exact moment the "P" was earned.

 

According the posted stage instructions:

 

It's safe to say that loading more than one round did not cause the "P".

Firing more than one round was not prohibited, either, (shotgun ammo round count was 2+ and had the shooter discharged the second shot into the berm, it would have been a no-call), so that did not cause the "P".

What caused the "P" was knocking down the second target out of order.  That's where the stage instruction was violated.

 

Agree with "P" call...followed by a reshoot due to impeding the shooter's progress after the fact.

 

[John Kloehr]

10 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

My intent was not to incite a riot here.

 

The only point I was going for was a semantical comment, specifically regarding the exact moment the "P" was earned.

 

According the posted stage instructions:

 

It's safe to say that loading more than one round did not cause the "P".

Firing more than one round was not prohibited, either, (shotgun ammo round count was 2+ and had the shooter discharged the second shot into the berm, it would have been a no-call), so that did not cause the "P".

What caused the "P" was knocking down the second target out of order.  That's where the stage instruction was violated.

 

Agree with "P" call...followed by a reshoot due to impeding the shooter's progress after the fact.

 

I see no riot, just discussion leading to understanding. I never got as far as RO interference. Frankly, at a club monthly, I would have just followed the direction, put one more into the berm, and moved on with life.

I might have a different opinion (or care about it personally) when I do not take three times longer than the top shooters. Until then, just having fun running guns by had instead of all the (semi) auto magic doing most of it for me.

 

I've shot a Greenville way back, good guys. May be warm enough next month for me to make it to Oak Ridge again. You are one of the shooters I am three times slower than.

[Stump Water]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

You’re obviously the final word but, I COMPLETELY disagree. Stage instructions specifically say to return to middle shooting position and engage target. The target not being there doesn’t negate that requirement. If I were the TO and the shooter skipped that step I’d levy a Spirit of the Game penalty for trying to gain a competitive advantage. 

 

My thought as well.

 

And now we wander off into the "intent" minefield. 

[Shooting Bull]

45 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

PWB posted way above while I was still reviewing the rules. So skipped making what was now a me-too post. But I did go through the rules to get to agreement with him. Competitive advantage was lost when the second target was engaged out-of-order. Only one P per stage. SoG would apply if the shooter engaged both targets the 1st time on purpose, but not for brain-fade.

 

I could see a SoG if the shooter then engaged pistol and/or or rifle sections putting one round on the first plate and then dumping on the second rather than alternating between them (an attempt to gain competitive advantage to make up for the P). But the one P was earned, the target was engaged, just in the wrong order. Having earned the one P, can't get another.

 

Anyway, came back to this thread for a different reason. That stage would have been a DQ trap for me without the P event. I shoot rarely enough to still be a beginner after all this time. I did recall it was safe to move with a shotgun if a live round was in chamber as long as the action is open. I might have brain-faded and opened the action without shucking the one spent and one live shell had I KD'd the first SG target on the first round from my SxS, and set it on the table open with chambers not empty. That would absolutely have been on me.

 

This is one reason I like these questions. It prompts me to go into the rules and refresh myself on the nuances of this game.

I still disagree. If shooter skips that shooting position they save time by not having to stop, load shotgun, fire shotgun, unload shotgun, move to final position. That all adds up to a ton of time saved. Also, a P early in a stage does not negate the requirement to follow the instructions for the rest of the stage. For instance, just because you got a P early in the stage doesn’t mean you can simply do a ten round dump with the next gun thus ignoring stage instructions on target sequence engagement. 
 

SHB Pg 12: 

Edited March 9 by Shooting Bull

[John Kloehr]

4 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

I still disagree. If shooter skips that shooting position they save time by not having to stop, load shotgun, fire shotgun, unload shotgun, move to final position. That all adds up to a ton of time saved. Also, a P early in a stage does not negate the requirement to follow the instructions for the rest of the stage. 
 

SHB Pg 12: 

So you see a SoG? It is not an FTE if it involves shooting (page 13). Would stopping and touching the shotgun have cured it? Picking it up and setting it down? Or shooting where the target was (noting it has been shot already earning the P)?

 

Not asking to argue, just for clarification of thinking.

[Shooting Bull]

9 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

So you see a SoG? It is not an FTE if it involves shooting (page 13). Would stopping and touching the shotgun have cured it? Picking it up and setting it down? Or shooting where the target was (noting it has been shot already earning the P)?

 

Not asking to argue, just for clarification of thinking.

OP says the instructions are to move to that position and knock down the remaining target. That means firing the shotgun. Failure to do that is a violation of the stage instructions. The only reason not to do that would be to gain a competitive advantage. 

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

18 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

I still disagree. If shooter skips that shooting position they save time by not having to stop, load shotgun, fire shotgun, unload shotgun, move to final position. That all adds up to a ton of time saved. Also, a P early in a stage does not negate the requirement to follow the instructions for the rest of the stage. For instance, just because you got a P early in the stage doesn’t mean you can simply do a ten round dump with the next gun thus ignoring stage instructions on target sequence engagement. 
 

SHB Pg 12: 

 

I agree that some shooters may be able to save time and gain an advantage with taking both SG knockdowns on first pass but picking up a ten second penalty.  The only ones that may save time would be in the slowest 10-15% of shooters.  None of the top shooters I shoot with could make up the entire 10 seconds by not shooting as written. 

 

If I were the RO for this shooter, I would not give a SOG for his actions. 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

I'm not seeing any TO interference either. He coached the shooter to stop and take a shotgun shot as stated in the stage scenario. Therefore, no reshoot.

[Stump Water]

28 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

OP says the instructions are to move to that position and knock down the remaining target. That means firing the shotgun. Failure to do that is a violation of the stage instructions. The only reason not to do that would be to gain a competitive advantage. 

 

I'm still agreeing with this.

18 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

I'm not seeing any TO interference either. He coached the shooter to stop and take a shotgun shot as stated in the stage scenario. Therefore, no reshoot.

 

And this.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

OK!!  We're going for PAGE 2 here.  Let us get it together.  Or just play a nice quiet game of Mummbldy Pegs.

 

I'm Reviewing The Situation (Famous Movie Line).  I may have to change my original answer and the TO a Pass.  Hummmmmmmm.

 

After all.  Had that second target gone down from an act of nature, or someone seriously breaking wind, or a wide pattern or just cause it didn't feel like standing up, shooter would have been required to stop and shoot where the target "was."  Since the shooter knocked the target down out of "Oopsies" shooter earned a "P" no reason for the TO to let the shooter skip that "stop and shoot" out of kindness.  Stage instructions required that "stop and shoot."  TO takes the dunce cap off and sticks his or her tongue out at me.  Shooter still had to stop and shoot "where it was."  Burma Shave.

[Eyesa Horg]

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

I still disagree. If shooter skips that shooting position they save time by not having to stop, load shotgun, fire shotgun, unload shotgun, move to final position. That all adds up to a ton of time saved. Also, a P early in a stage does not negate the requirement to follow the instructions for the rest of the stage. For instance, just because you got a P early in the stage doesn’t mean you can simply do a ten round dump with the next gun thus ignoring stage instructions on target sequence engagement. 
SHB Pg 12: 

2 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

So you see a SoG? It is not an FTE if it involves shooting (page 13). Would stopping and touching the shotgun have cured it? Picking it up and setting it down? Or shooting where the target was (noting it has been shot already earning the P)?

Not asking to argue, just for clarification of thinking.

A SOG is probably the hardest call to make without some indication other than simply actions by the shooter.  I believe the only time(s) it has been invoked is when the shooter has, either prior to or following shooting the stage made comments along the lines of "I ain't shootin' it like that!"  Or "I can shoot it faster, if..."  Clearly satisfying the "willfully or intentionally" part of the SOG rule.  Inferring intent is difficult.  

I don't believe that shooting a target out of order would necessarily turn the stage from a minimum 22 round stage to a 23 round count.  Shooting a pistol or rifle target out of order via skipping a prior target, doesn't require a shooter to "re-engage" that skipped target, neither should a shotgun target, the shooter can just elect to accept the miss.   In this specific instance, what would be the penalty for failing to re-engage the 2nd shotgun target.  It can't be a miss, as it was already knocked down.  Clearly not a Procedural, as that penalty had already been earned for this stage, nor is it a progressive penalty in this instance. 

 

Also, please note that in his original post PWB prefaced his second line with "IMO"... ergo, not an official interpretation of the rules.   

 

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

4 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

OP says the instructions are to move to that position and knock down the remaining target. That means firing the shotgun. Failure to do that is a violation of the stage instructions. The only reason not to do that would be to gain a competitive advantage. 

What advantage?  He already earned himself a P