New Bullet! OAL?

[Squib Kidd]

Howdy Gals and Pards!

 

I'm designing another extrodinarily light bullet here at Procast Bullet Co.

 

It's going to be a 45 cal bullet.  But I don't know the minimum OAL that will cycle in our rifles.  

 

Can anyone give me a baseline minumum overall cartridge length to design my new HOLLOW BACKED 45 bullet after?

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Typical .45 Colt cartridge length that works is highly variable, even within toggle link rifles.  Depends upon the carrier installed (factory, replacement, even custom tuned carriers - all have a different cartridge return ramp angle).   Then there are the shorter rounds - Schofield and C45Special.  And then there's the Marlins (like a longer round) and 92 designs.

 

I DO NOT THINK you can make one design that always works.   Unless you go to a design that can be loaded in .45 Colt cases to about 1.530" or more, to shoot in most factory toggles.  Or you go very flexible by not putting a crimp groove in the leading band area.

 

So, that would be a fairly long nose bullet.   From my personal experience, I would use a long Truncated Cone nose with a meplat about .220" - slightly larger than the primer diameter.

 

Comments from a fellow bullet designer - the Accurate 45-175B is from my design of a stubby TC bullet.  Made to have a fairly wide lube groove (can work as a BP slug) but NO crimp groove (so it can be seated over a wide range of lengths).   Has worked real well for Cowboy shooting when cast soft (10 BNH) so that crimp can be turned into the leading band.  And it casts VERY fast since it's not hollow based.

 

175 grain cowboy design

 

good luck, GJ

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Howdy Kidd, I can only say for my own rifle, a .45 '73 carbine made in 2005.  It will cycle 1.39" OAL fine - that is the length of my Schofield cartridges with 200 or 250gr bullet.  That seems short and is shorter than what will cycle in my .357 rifles, but it does indeed work.  45 Colt brass is so long that a bullet really doesn't have to stick out very far for it to cycle.  As long as it is less than about 1.59" it should work.

[Sam Sackett]

I run a 92 and it demands 1.600” min. That’s pretty long for the bullet you are thinking of. 
 

Sam Sackett 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I personally don't recommend a bullet without a crimp groove.  A good snug crimp prevents bullets from setting back under recoil, especially in tube magazined rifles.  Turtles (set back bullets) will jam a Toggle Link rifle.  I'd look for a COL of not less than 1.43 to run in most 45 Schofield rounds and not longer than 1.58 or 1.59.  The mean dimension of toggle link carrier block and mortice is 1.60.  the more commonly available 200Gr RNFP run fine in 45 Schofield though I haven't actually measured mine.  I do think 1.39 is a little on the short side for good performance in a variety of toggle link rifles.  I'm no help at all for '92s.  '92 are all over the place for cartridge guides and magazine stops.  Most feed problems encountered in the '92 are caused by too much slop in the cartridge guides.

[July Smith]

5 hours ago, Squib Kidd said:

Howdy Gals and Pards!

 

I'm designing another extrodinarily light bullet here at Procast Bullet Co.

 

It's going to be a 45 cal bullet.  But I don't know the minimum OAL that will cycle in our rifles.  

 

Can anyone give me a baseline minumum overall cartridge length to design my new HOLLOW BACKED 45 bullet after?

 

Thanks!

 

 

What caliber and model rifle do you plan on running these ultra light bullets in?  Most calibers and rifles for SASS are meant to run around 1.580-1.600".  Sure some toggle links can run shorter, and some rifles can be specifically tuned to run just about any length within reason.  As a general use 45 cal bullet I would not go much lighter 200gr or else you are going to have serious blow-by issues with 45Colts. 

Edited March 3 by July Smith

[Boggus Deal #64218]

15 minutes ago, July Smith said:

What caliber and model rifle do you plan on running these ultra light bullets in?  Most calibers and rifles for SASS are meant to run around 1.580-1.600".  Sure some toggle links can run shorter, and some rifles can be specifically tuned to run just about any length within reason.  As a general use 45 cal bullet I would not go much lighter 200gr or else you are going to have serious blow-by issues with 45Colts. 

He’s a bullet caster. He is making them to sell.

[July Smith]

5 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

He’s a bullet caster. He is making them to sell.

Lol, thanks for pointing that out.  I guess in that case, if there is a demand for ultra light 45s then go for it. 

Edited March 3 by July Smith

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

I personally don't recommend a bullet without a crimp groove.

I have been running .45 cal bullets for the last 10 years with no crimp groove, and ZERO bullet setbacks.  In a .45 rifle load that makes about 175 PF.    Both in cowboy and WB.   What is the key?    A soft slug, about 10 BNH, and a firm roll crimp into the bullet land so that the brass of the shell cuts into surface of the lead is the key to this!d  Hard alloys (like the standard commercial 6-2 alloy) make it hard to roll the crimp into the slug.

 

A crimp groove, while a nice luxury, is not NEEDED if you load with the proper understanding of the amount of pressure exerted by the bullet stack weight in the magazine and the recoil of the rifle.

 

Now, one design trick that has been used in the past (but not very favorably received) is to put two crimp grooves into the front of the shaft of the bullet.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited March 3 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

JULY,

 

In a .45 Colt rifle, you're going to get Blow-By regardless of bullet.  Nature of the beast.  The .45 Colt case simply will not expand to seal the chamber.  For Single Action handguns, Blow-By is not much of an issue and a nice really light bullet is quite desirable.

 

Garrison Joe,

 

A crimp groove is NOT a luxury.  It is also not very common to find really soft commercially cast bullets.  The crimp groove also assists in preventing bullet creep in a single action cylinder.  A singular experience by a single shooter is not necessarily applicable to ALL shooters as you also noted, most commercial cast bullets are not cast dead soft.  I also haven't met anyone who has sat down to calculate the the impulse pressure generated by the weight of the cartridge stack at cartridge ignition. 🤔 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

I also haven't met anyone who has sat down to calculate the the impulse pressure generated by

Don't have to calculate it, I make that decision based on field testing.  Where it REALLY counts.   Now, a design that is going to be cast with 6-2 alloy really does present a  need for a crimp groove, especially with folks who don't DO a lot of reloading to know all the tricks to use. 

 

Although, if you really wanted to test whether bullets will break their seating position, fill a magazine tube up and drop rifle butt first onto a wood surface and then examine the rounds for any collapsed condition.  😉 If none, then it's nothing to worry about unless you are loading cracked cases.

 

But, I'll stand behind my statement - a crimp groove is not really necessary if you know how to load.

 

And the whole topic of commercial casters using an alloy that was never even considered before the .357 magnum was invented and reloaders who did not know better started leading up barrels is a complete discussion of it's own.   A 10 BNH bullet is all that is needed for ANY SASS match shooting, even with 1911s. No one I know shoots "dead soft" slugs over smokeless powder, either.  The Happy Medium (Goldilocks choice) wins again.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited March 4 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I shot a lot of Bear Creek bullets, no crimp groove.  No problem.

[Eyesa Horg]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

But, I'll stand behind my statement - a crimp groove is not really necessary if you know how to load.

 

Ok, I'll bite! What's the trick to crimping with no groove? I've done it without issue in the past but prefer the groove. I'm now using mostly coated bullets these days, but my supplier makes a few without grooves that are coated. Won't crimping into the coating cause the coating to scrape off upon firing?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

19 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Ok, I'll bite! What's the trick to crimping with no groove? I've done it without issue in the past but prefer the groove. I'm now using mostly coated bullets these days, but my supplier makes a few without grooves that are coated. Won't crimping into the coating cause the coating to scrape off upon firing?

Lee Factory Crimp Die 

Never have had any push back with Bear Creek Supply moly coated. 

[El Sobrante Kid]

2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Although, if you really wanted to test whether bullets will break their seating position, fill a magazine tube up and drop rifle butt first onto a wood surface and then examine the rounds for any collapsed condition.  😉 If none, then it's nothing to worry about unless you are loading cracked cases.

 

good luck, GJ

 

Sounds like an interesting test but need some specifics; 1) from how high? (distance from closest end of butt, to the wood), and 2) hardwood like oak or walnut, or softwood like pine or fir? Thx

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Note the emoji.  Not a scientific test, and certainly uncalibrated.   The goal of any test is to get close to the kind of  "real world" conditions which MIGHT cause a failure, to see if worries about the possibility of such failure are unfounded, or if a change to the system is needed. 

 

So, drop from as high as you figure is needed, and use about any wood (just to avoid the damage that would be done dropping onto concrete).

 

I actually do test the pull strength of my loads - in my hammer type bullet puller.  If it only takes a "light rap" to move the slug with a roll crimp placed on it, crimp is not tight enough.   If it takes a couple of "moderate raps" to move it - perfect.   I also use the door jamb test - holding cartridge in one hand, press nose of round as hard as I can into the wood.  If I don't collapse the slug into the case - good enough.  GJ

 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

...I also use the door jamb test - holding cartridge in one hand, press nose of round as hard as I can into the wood.  If I don't collapse the slug into the case - good enough.  GJ

That's what I do.  

[Eyesa Horg]

12 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

That's what I do.  

Me too, but bench top edge!

[Squib Kidd]

On 3/3/2025 at 3:45 PM, July Smith said:

What caliber and model rifle do you plan on running these ultra light bullets in?  Most calibers and rifles for SASS are meant to run around 1.580-1.600".  Sure some toggle links can run shorter, and some rifles can be specifically tuned to run just about any length within reason.  As a general use 45 cal bullet I would not go much lighter 200gr or else you are going to have serious blow-by issues with 45Colts. 

There is almost zero blow by with my HB bullets in 38.  It's because they're hollow and expand.  I would be making one 45 that I need to run in all the cowboy rifles well.  That's the data I'm looking for minimum OAL for 45 colt.

 

[Squib Kidd]

On 3/3/2025 at 10:25 AM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Typical .45 Colt cartridge length that works is highly variable, even within toggle link rifles.  Depends upon the carrier installed (factory, replacement, even custom tuned carriers - all have a different cartridge return ramp angle).   Then there are the shorter rounds - Schofield and C45Special.  And then there's the Marlins (like a longer round) and 92 designs.

 

I DO NOT THINK you can make one design that always works.   Unless you go to a design that can be loaded in .45 Colt cases to about 1.530" or more, to shoot in most factory toggles.  Or you go very flexible by not putting a crimp groove in the leading band area.

 

So, that would be a fairly long nose bullet.   From my personal experience, I would use a long Truncated Cone nose with a meplat about .220" - slightly larger than the primer diameter.

 

Comments from a fellow bullet designer - the Accurate 45-175B is from my design of a stubby TC bullet.  Made to have a fairly wide lube groove (can work as a BP slug) but NO crimp groove (so it can be seated over a wide range of lengths).   Has worked real well for Cowboy shooting when cast soft (10 BNH) so that crimp can be turned into the leading band.  And it casts VERY fast since it's not hollow based.

 

175 grain cowboy design

 

good luck, GJ

thanks!

[Squib Kidd]

On 3/4/2025 at 12:25 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

JULY,

 

In a .45 Colt rifle, you're going to get Blow-By regardless of bullet.  Nature of the beast.  The .45 Colt case simply will not expand to seal the chamber.  For Single Action handguns, Blow-By is not much of an issue and a nice really light bullet is quite desirable.

 

Garrison Joe,

 

A crimp groove is NOT a luxury.  It is also not very common to find really soft commercially cast bullets.  The crimp groove also assists in preventing bullet creep in a single action cylinder.  A singular experience by a single shooter is not necessarily applicable to ALL shooters as you also noted, most commercial cast bullets are not cast dead soft.  I also haven't met anyone who has sat down to calculate the the impulse pressure generated by the weight of the cartridge stack at cartridge ignition. 🤔 

My HB bullets are hardcast, but being hollow they seal the case better (at least my existing 38s) than any other bullet I've ever shot.  The expansion of the bullet seals everthing up better.  You especially see it where itxs most important, in rifle chambers.  I still get a little blowback in the pistols.

[Squib Kidd]

On 3/4/2025 at 3:06 PM, Eyesa Horg said:

Ok, I'll bite! What's the trick to crimping with no groove? I've done it without issue in the past but prefer the groove. I'm now using mostly coated bullets these days, but my supplier makes a few without grooves that are coated. Won't crimping into the coating cause the coating to scrape off upon firing?

Soft lead is the trick to it.  Hardcast needs a groove.  There's a big difference from 10BHN to 18 BHN in lead hardness.

[Squib Kidd]

Wow thank you all for the informative replies.  For whatever reason I'm not getting alerts for posts to this topic or I would've responded faster.

 

[Leroy Luck]

Know what weight of bullet you are thinking of? Maybe I missed it in the above comments. 

[Eyesa Horg]

11 minutes ago, Squib Kidd said:

Wow thank you all for the informative replies.  For whatever reason I'm not getting alerts for posts to this topic or I would've responded faster.

 

You need to "follow" it. Scroll to the bottom.