Gunfighter rule

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

This is a follow up to a post on a Facebook thread.  Why is a gunfighter not allowed to reholster his pistols on a split pistol stage as long as they are hammer down on an empty.  All other shooters are allowed to do this.  Reference safe conditions on page 15 of shooter book

thanks

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Because a Gunfighter does not routinely shoot the guns "dry."  Other shooters NEVER have two loaded handguns out at any time.  "Others" are only allowed to holster a handgun when it had been shot dry then may draw the second handgun.  On a split pistol stage, gunfighters have TWO loaded pistols out and my NOT holster until both are shot dry. 

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

Where does it say that a two handed shooter or duelist must shoot there guns dry before holstering them.  Not trying to argue just want to know why

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

I’m hoping Palewolf will chime in on this thread

[Leroy Luck]

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

And that's why we don't do split pistols... 😬

Yes, could be fun for one-handers but GF hate em!

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

MCJ

 

Read ALL the rules 🤠

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

I’m sorry I must be handicapped could you tell me what page the rule that a two handed shooter must shoot there pistols dry is on.  Page 15 says it is safe to reholster a pistol if it is hammer down on an empty

[Captain Bill Burt]

Page 15. Safe conditions during a course of fire - revolvers.

 

Third bullet point Gunfighter.

Edited February 27 by Captain Bill Burt

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

Correct.  Gunfighters cannot.  But says nothing about other shooters needing to shoot their pistol dry before reholstering

[Captain Bill Burt]

5 minutes ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

Correct.  Gunfighters cannot.  But says nothing about other shooters needing to shoot their pistol dry before reholstering

Because they don’t have to.

Edited February 27 by Captain Bill Burt

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

also correct.   My question was why do gunfighters have to

[Warden Callaway]

The few times this has happened to me, I shots double duelest.  Sometimes you shot from two positions.  I shot typical gunfighter but call out "hammers down" so TO knows I'm not traveling with cooked pistols. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

This is a follow up to a post on a Facebook thread.  Why is a gunfighter not allowed to reholster his pistols on a split pistol stage as long as they are hammer down on an empty.  All other shooters are allowed to do this.  Reference safe conditions on page 15 of shooter book

thanks

 

I'll burrow through my archives to see if there is a documented reason for specifically disallowing doing so.

I'm thinking that it was to minimize the risk of holstering a cocked revolver due to either miscounting rounds fired and/or automatically cocking one of the revolvers (whether alternating or double-cocking).

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

Thanks Palewolf.  I just think this discriminates against gunfighters on a split pistol stage where another gun must be shot between pistols.  There is already a rule against holstering a cocked pistol or with a live round under the hammer.  Why this specific rule against gunfighters.  Way more AD drawing a pistol than holstering them

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

6 minutes ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

Thanks Palewolf.  I just think this discriminates against gunfighters on a split pistol stage where another gun must be shot between pistols.  There is already a rule against holstering a cocked pistol or with a live round under the hammer.  Why this specific rule against gunfighters.  

Way more AD drawing a pistol than holstering them

 

Also a SDQ for "Changing location/moving with a live round under a cocked hammer or firearm with the hammer down on a live round." 

...and a MSV for "Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45° down range."

 

I'll be back if/when I can cite a specific reference to the reason for the GF restriction.

[Flyin Shootest]

6 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I'll burrow through my archives to see if there is a documented reason for specifically disallowing doing so.

I'm thinking that it was to minimize the risk of holstering a cocked revolver due to either miscounting rounds fired and/or automatically cocking one of the revolvers (whether alternating or double-cocking).

 

Not to poke an open wound, but don't we already have penalties for both actions and no prohibition for every other shooting style?  I know in many respects, Gunfighters are "Special", setting aside all but this specific issue I submit, that it is plausible this was a compromise agreed to when the category was originally adopted to satisfy the concerns expressed by non-gunfighters to garner support for category adoption.  The game evolves, and maybe its time to consider if the prohibition still is warranted?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

4 minutes ago, Flyin Shootest said:

 

Not to poke an open wound, but don't we already have penalties for both actions and no prohibition for every other shooting style?  I know in many respects, Gunfighters are "Special", setting aside all but this specific issue I submit, that it is plausible this was a compromise agreed to when the category was originally adopted to satisfy the concerns expressed by non-gunfighters to garner support for category adoption.  The game evolves, and maybe its time to consider if the prohibition still is warranted?

 

Maybe have someone bring it up for discussion at the EoT TG meeting this afternoon?

[Cemetery]

57 minutes ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

Thanks Palewolf.  I just think this discriminates against gunfighters on a split pistol stage where another gun must be shot between pistols.  There is already a rule against holstering a cocked pistol or with a live round under the hammer.  Why this specific rule against gunfighters.  Way more AD drawing a pistol than holstering them

 

Clubs I have shot at, will allow GF's to safely move with guns in hand, to this other position, if there is a place to safely ground the pistols and engage with the next gun, then pickup pistols and safely move to next pistol position.  Or move safely with pistols in hand to the next pistol position.

 

@Nawlins Kid SASS #36107 has explained this no reupholstering for future engagement a few times, and I always forget it.

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

Thanks Cemetery.  I do know what they can do but sometimes there is no place to set them down or I have seen where pistols must be staged in 2 different locations.  This forces a gunfighter to shoot duelist

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I am now OFFICIALLY CONFUSED.  It has always been my belief NO handgun could be holster'd with live ammunition still in the gun.  I DO know Gunfighters cannot reholster with live ammunition still in the guns.  Gunfighters ARE allowed to set the guns down on an appropriate prop for split pistol.  Amazing when we find out things may not necessarily be what we believe them to be.  Or not to be.  That begs the question.

 

Awright PaleWolf we await the "word" with bated breath.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

8 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

I am now OFFICIALLY CONFUSED.  It has always been my belief NO handgun could be holster'd with live ammunition still in the gun.  I DO know Gunfighters cannot reholster with live ammunition still in the guns.  Gunfighters ARE allowed to set the guns down on an appropriate prop for split pistol.  Amazing when we find out things may not necessarily be what we believe them to be.  Or not to be.  That begs the question.

 

Awright PaleWolf we await the "word" with bated breath.

 

There is no penalty for holstering a revolver with live/unfired rounds in the cylinder as long as the hammer is DOWN on either an empty chamber or fired round.

 

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Revolvers 
Revolvers are considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while holstering, or while moving 
through a stage) and SAFE to leave the shooter’s hand in the following conditions ONLY: 
- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber. 
- Hammer fully down on an expended round.  A revolver may not be originally 
staged in this condition, but may be restaged in this condition. 
- GUNFIGHTER shooting style considerations: When shooting Gunfighter style, a 
gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another sequence.  
(See Gunfighter Rules). 

SHB p.15

 

[Assassin]

I'm not a Gunfighter. However, I've never understood this rule. There's already a rule that states one cannot holster a cocked pistol.  The rule limits the number of split pistol stages, if we don't want to handicap Gunfighters.

[Scarlett]

9 hours ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

sometimes there is no place to set them down or I have seen where pistols must be staged in 2 different locations.  This forces a gunfighter to shoot duelist

 

EXACTLY! At two matches last fall, there were three split pistol stages… one that had SG & R & SG shot in between and no shelf wide/deep enough for any extra guns without it being a safety issue. I don’t like to be “that Gunfighter” and complain about stages however, this stage could NOT be shot Gunfighter no matter what. 
 

I’ve attached a video of a stage that had pistols staged in two different locations. There had already been a split pistol stage prior and my posse full of gunfighters asked if we could get pistol after the beep (stage instructions did not say NO and stage writer was on the posse).  I didn’t do it for any other reason than to shoot it gunfighter. Because I’m a gunfighter. 🥰

 

Hugs!

Scarlett

 

 

 

[Griff]

It's not about holstering with a cocked pistol, since it doesn't matter if the gun is cocked or not.  It's also not about disadvantaging a Gunfighter.  All gunfighters must follow this rule.  

[Hooligan Howes]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I've been to several matches where it was a split pistol stage. And during the stage description it was brought up that gunfighters could shoot double duelist or shoot gunfighter and ground the pistols on a table while shooting other guns. If that's ok to do then why not reholster?

Edited February 28 by Hooligan Howes

[Griff]

9 minutes ago, Hooligan Howes said:

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I've been to several matches where it was a split pistol stage. And during the stage description it was brought up that gunfighters could shoot double duelist or shoot gunfighter and ground the pistols on a table while shooting other guns. If that's ok to do then why not reholster?

Revolvers are to be returned to holster at the end of the shooting string, unless otherwise directed by stage instructions  (SHB, Jan 2025, pg 15).  This is a case where the shooting string is is completed after 5 revolver rounds, another type firearm is used, and then the 2nd pistol is then used.  In the case of split pistols, each pistol is its own string.  No, there's no penalty if a shooter miscounts the number of shots fired and holsters... The shooter didn't holster with the intent to re-engage with that pistol... and nothing prevents the shooter from re-drawing and completing the string.  This is clearly where the gunfighter, would be holstering with the intent to draw a 2nd time and engage additional targets.  That's my understanding of the rules and application for gunfighter as compared to either Duelist or two-handed shooters.  Not necessarily handled differently.  Frankly, don't piss off your customers and have more than one split pistol stage per match.  

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

The rules are not different for gunfighters. Anyone who miscounts and holsters w/ the hammer down on a spent round only receives a miss. The clarification is that they may not be reholstered as a strategy. We could remove the words "a gunfighter" and replace with "a shooter" if it makes some someone feel better about it. The rules wont change. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

6 hours ago, Griff said:

It's not about holstering with a cocked pistol, since it doesn't matter if the gun is cocked or not.  It's also not about disadvantaging a Gunfighter.  All gunfighters must follow this rule.  

It may not disadvantage a gunfighter relative to other gunfighters but it does place them at a disadvantage relative to other shooters as it can force them to shoot double duelist.

4 hours ago, Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963 said:

The rules are not different for gunfighters. Anyone who miscounts and holsters w/ the hammer down on a spent round only receives a miss. The clarification is that they may not be reholstered as a strategy. We could remove the words "a gunfighter" and replace with "a shooter" if it makes some someone feel better about it. The rules wont change. 

Respectfully, it is different. A traditional shooter is allowed to holster a loaded pistol and later draw and fire it again without penalty regardless of intent. Intent in that situation is only relevant for gunfighters. 
 

Rarely would a non gunfighter wish to do that, but they could if they chose to.

 

The fact that gunfighters aren’t penalized if the action isn’t intentional leads me to the conclusion that the rule isn’t about safety as when does intent impact other safety calls?

 

Can a shooter avoid a penalty for a dropped gun, round left on the carrier, 170 violation, etc. by stating that they didn’t intend to do that? Obviously not, so allowing a gunfighter to unintentionally holster a loaded revolver without penalty tells me it isn’t a safety issue.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Okay I've read this whole entire thread and while I'm not a Gunfighter( I tried it a few times it's just not my bag) and I can honestly say I've never seen a "split pistol" stage and I go to 5 different clubs in my state. I've also been to state and regionals and never seen them there either. Just my 2 cents!

[Assassin]

14 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Okay I've read this whole entire thread and while I'm not a Gunfighter( I tried it a few times it's just not my bag) and I can honestly say I've never seen a "split pistol" stage and I go to 5 different clubs in my state. I've also been to state and regionals and never seen them there either. Just my 2 cents!

The reason you don't see split pistol stages is because stage writers don't want to handicap GF's. Split pistol stages used to be common.

[Tn Tombstone]

Lets forget about the penalty and look at safety only.

Shooting one gun at a time: the stage instructions take care of shooting my gun empty.  ie. With first 5 rounds….

Even if I re-holster with hammer cocked it is on a spent or empty round.

If I hit my trigger on the draw nothing goes boom, (and most of us pull our pistols with our fingers in place)

 

If I am shooting GF which I do.

If I shoot 5 rounds and re-holster with a cocked pistol it is going to be on a live round.  In the all the excitement I redraw with my finger already on trigger, Bang. 

Penalties be damned, I now have a major problem with possible injury, hospital visit and police report not to. mention the range officials and insurance.

 

This may seem a little far reaching but I have seen it happen with shooter loosing count at 8, re-holstering with cocked revolvers (it happens) redraws and shoot through the bottom of his/her holster. Shooter did not get hurt nor did I report it to the range owner for a few months.

 

As TO, please do not give me more responsibilities to perform. I dont want to have to worry about my GF re-holstering a cocked revolver. 

[Bison Bud]

As a Gunfighter, I will say that I have never really liked the split pistol stages, but I also never felt that every stage needed to be "Gunfighter Friendly."  Instead, I always treated them as an additional challenge rather than a disadvantage and the additional challenge was why I shot Gunfighter in the first place.  If there was a good place to stage the pistols, I generally would be extra careful about counting shots, then staged them carefully to shoot the other firearm and come back.  However, there were occasional times that this was not a great idea or simply impossible and then I would simply shoot one hand at a time.  Every Gunfighter should be able to shoot double duelist style effectively and I don't see why this is considered such a disadvantage.  While I wouldn't want to do this on every stage, it does help to provide variety for all involved and looking at it as a disadvantage is pretty self centered in my personal opinion.  Good luck and good shooting to all.

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

Personally, if I was allowed to re-holster, it would likely cost me time.  In all likelihood, when I got to the second position, I would start up with the wrong pistol (the one with only two rounds), go Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Click at which point my brain would freeze and I would spend at least a second figuring out what happened before the light came on and I said, "Oh, the "Other" gun"!     I have enough trouble keeping that straight when I keep them out!

[Shawnee Hills]

In my opinion, split pistol stages are nothing but a DQ trap and should never be written.  I get that we all want variety but this is "a bridge too far", I think.