La Vista Bill Posted February 26 Posted February 26 I'm going to be testing a new Taylor's & Co. TC73 shortly. It is a replica Model 1873 and is chambered in 9mm Luger. The premise is that it will shoot cheap 9mm ammo and be a companion to 9mm SAA revolvers now being made. A few ammo producers make 9mm loads with lead or frangible bullets and of course one can always handload 9mm ammo with lead bullets. I heard a rumor at the 2025 SHOT Show that this rifle/caliber was going to become SASS-legal. I know it's not very "cowboy," or period correct, but how many other calibers do we shoot that weren't around between 1865-1899? Thoughts?
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted February 26 Posted February 26 Howdy Bill, There were some discussions about this not too long ago. I believe Palewolf Brunelle stated that it has been submitted to the rules committee to see if that rifle or some version of it will be SASS legal. Right now it is not, primarily I think due to the threaded barrel but I'm not sure.
Sedalia Dave Posted February 27 Posted February 27 Hopefully a ruling will come out of the TG meeting being held at EOT 1
Cholla Posted February 27 Posted February 27 The caliber is already allowed. The hold up is the threaded barrel. The question is, will it be allowed in the future? Many lever-action refiles are now being made with a threaded barrel but come with a smooth thread cover. 3
Rip Snorter Posted February 27 Posted February 27 Not into 9mm, but if the barrel will still be within the law, snip that portion off? Even grind off the threads? Anywhere else but here, I am not at all into anarchy. Just from a personal view, density of rules, excluding safety, drove me out of competition. Age a factor as well, but freedom first.
Cholla Posted February 27 Posted February 27 Considering that a synthetic stock is allowed on shotguns (according to a recent thread), it seems that a smooth thread protector should also be allowed. 4
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 27 Posted February 27 13 minutes ago, Cholla said: Considering that a synthetic stock is allowed on shotguns (according to a recent thread), it seems that a smooth thread protector should also be allowed. Synthetic shotgun stocks have been specifically allowed since 2007 (REF: two threads from last November...search under "Boito"). Equating that example with threaded rifle barrels is a non sequitur. 1 1
Dapper Dave Posted February 27 Posted February 27 As a complete newbie, it would make sense to me that a threaded barrel with a smooth thread protector covering it, giving it no advantage over any other barrel on the line, would fly, but I am so new I still shake water off the backs of my ears. 1
Cholla Posted February 27 Posted February 27 The next question is, will the new S&W 1864 lever action be allowed? It's not based on anything pre-1899, but neither is the Henry Big Boy, which is allowed. It has a threaded muzzle. With muzzle devices becoming commonplace, many shooters now demand a threaded muzzle. Henry just added threaded muzzles to its line-up. Do I want to see a suppressor at a SASS match? NO. But there will be new shooters that buy before they know better and will want to use their new lever-action in SASS and then use it with a suppressor for hunting. 4
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) The S&W M-1854 was the subject of a Wire discussion last August. Earlier that month, the ROC ruled that removal of the unapproved/ILLEGAL features would be an acceptable solution. BTW...Other rifle manufacturers (e.g. MARLIN) currently offer SASS-LEGAL versions that require no modifications. Edited February 27 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L add link 1 1
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Dapper Dave said: As a complete newbie, it would make sense to me that a threaded barrel with a smooth thread protector covering it, giving it no advantage over any other barrel on the line, would fly, but I am so new I still shake water off the backs of my ears. There are LOTS of things that are legal with no historical significance and lots of things not legal with plenty of historical significance. 1 2
watab kid Posted February 27 Posted February 27 not to be controversial here , but why would 9mm be accepted ? i dont get this but im sure i dont know the entire back story on this , please explain me
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 27 Posted February 27 36 minutes ago, watab kid said: not to be controversial here , but why would 9mm be accepted ? i dont get this but im sure i dont know the entire back story on this , please explain me Revolver Calibers - Must be centerfire cartridges of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. - Must be in a cartridge commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt. (Includes some semi-auto pistol cartridges, e.g. 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP). SHB p.38 ("commonly available" due primarliy to the number of convertible revolvers produced) Rifle Calibers - Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber. - Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. ... ... ANY EXTERNAL MODIFICATION TO ANY FIREARM NOT SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED IN THIS HANDBOOK IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED SHB p.40 1
Dapper Dave Posted February 27 Posted February 27 3 hours ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said: There are LOTS of things that are legal with no historical significance and lots of things not legal with plenty of historical significance. OK, but I didn't mention historical significance, and you're right, as there were many double action revolvers produced prior to 1899, but spirit of the game is what this newbie thinks is in play, same thing that prevents the pump and lever action shotguns from being fully loaded. But what do I know. I've only shot two matches, for crying out loud. 1
Lassy LaRock Posted February 27 Posted February 27 However, this does not work in countries such as Europe where C.I.P. applies to ammunition. C.I.P. clearly distinguishes between pistol and revolver ammunition. 9mm Luger is classified as pistol ammunition and is therefore not revolver ammunition. 1
Scarlett Posted February 27 Posted February 27 8 hours ago, Rip Snorter said: Not into 9mm, but if the barrel will still be within the law, snip that portion off? Even grind off the threads? Anywhere else but here, I am not at all into anarchy. Just from a personal view, density of rules, excluding safety, drove me out of competition. Age a factor as well, but freedom first. I provided the ammo (not for free) for the testing at EOT. I spoke with Tammy a lot and there is a small “sleeve” (not sure correct verbiage) that will screw onto threads thereby making it a smooth barrel. She said the test firing would be between 9:30-10:30am Bay 13 today and tomorrow. They only bought 1,000 rounds. 147gr TCFP. I shoot frontier cartridge so I won't be shooting a 9mm. Im excited to shoot it! Stay tuned! Hugs! 3 1
Sixgun Seamus Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) Shot that rifle yesterday when a young lady from Taylor came over to bay 13 to test your ammo with the rifle. Really nice looking rifle. I didn't really pay attention to the barrel but it must have had the smooth cap on the barrel. The rifle ran flawlessly and was very accurate. I shoot Classic so there probably won't be one coming home with me. Edited February 27 by Sixgun Seamus Otto 1
Dantankerous Posted February 27 Posted February 27 Just an observation... Brassing for the small 9mm case is going to be problematic at some venues depending on the ground. Rocky or grassy terrain hides brass quite effectively. Heck, a couple places where I shoot even seeing a 45 Colt case is difficult. Just don't expect much 9mm brass back. 1
Rye Miles #13621 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Sixgun Seamus said: Shot that rifle yesterday when a young lady from Taylor came over to bay 13 to test your ammo with the rifle. Really nice looking rifle. I didn't really pay attention to the barrel but it must have had the smooth cap on the barrel. The rifle ran flawlessly and was very accurate. I shoot Classic so there probably won't be one coming home with me. Yea but you could bring me one and I'll let you shoot it whenever you want! My birthday is Mar 31 Edited February 27 by Rye Miles #13621 1
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 I have one of these... It's an 86. I gave alreadt replaced the tactical sights with conventional ones. I plan to replace that oversized foregrip with a "regular" one cuz I don't like the look/feel of the overly fat one. As you can see, it has a cap on the threaded barrel. the barrel is 16.5" long, including the threads. The threads are .5". I am not gonna cut off the threads as I am afraid that I'd wind up with a barrel length of 15-31/32" or something like that and run afoul of NFA '34. It's a .45-70, obviously. Now, it is of course, not main match legal, but would make for side matches where you need this kind of a cartridge. For the record, I can't get that cap off, it's REALLY screwed on tight. That being said, I'd be happy to replace it with a "smooth" cap if that would make a difference. Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. I bought this gun mostly for the fun of having it. If I can't use it is side matches, it's no loss, but it would be nice to be able to do so.
Eyesa Horg Posted February 27 Posted February 27 39 minutes ago, Dantankerous said: Just an observation... Brassing for the small 9mm case is going to be problematic at some venues depending on the ground. Rocky or grassy terrain hides brass quite effectively. Heck, a couple places where I shoot even seeing a 45 Colt case is difficult. Just don't expect much 9mm brass back. Although there'll probably be buckets full over on the pistol ranges. 🥴 3 1
Cholla Posted February 27 Posted February 27 6 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: Although there'll probably be buckets full over on the pistol ranges. 🥴 Exactly. I went out and picked up several hundred in a few minutes. Now that the pandemic is over, people are back to not taking their 223 and 9mm brass. 2
July Smith Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) The original patent for the Maxim suppressor shows it installed on a lever action. In my opinion a threaded barrel on an otherwise already SASS legal rifle is fine with me. I know SASS is trying to preserve a certain western look, but they already allow for so many other non-western looking things a threaded muzzle would seem like a strange hill to die on. Edited February 27 by July Smith 2 4
Griff Posted February 27 Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, July Smith said: The original patent for the Maxim suppressor shows it installed on a lever action. In my opinion a threaded barrel on an otherwise already SASS legal rifle is fine with me. I know SASS is trying to preserve a certain western look, but they already allow for so many other non-western looking things a threaded muzzle would seem like a strange hill to die on. Ahhh... but that is still a post 1899 filing.
El Chapo Posted February 27 Posted February 27 I'm not sure there's a textual basis for banning the rifle if it was equipped with a smooth thread cap. If someone is claim there is, I'd like to know what rule they're referencing. I certainly like the idea of a 9mm Luger setup to shoot with, as long as the rifle feeds effectively. I can just size my 105 grain bullet down to .356. 1
Still hand Bill Posted February 27 Posted February 27 As someone who has fully jumped on stamp collecting, I won’t buy another unthreaded rifle. I am now selling off anything not threaded. If the issue is looks, then make a rule about what style of thread protector is to be used and how it should blend with the barrel. Don’t just say you can’t do it. A good smith can make a thread protector that blends well and makes it look like it isn’t there. That’s easier than removing threads. 1 1
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 27 Posted February 27 18 minutes ago, El Chapo said: I'm not sure there's a textual basis for banning the rifle if it was equipped with a smooth thread cap. If someone is claim there is, I'd like to know what rule they're referencing. I certainly like the idea of a 9mm Luger setup to shoot with, as long as the rifle feeds effectively. I can just size my 105 grain bullet down to .356. Original and replicas may be used in competition provided they are in good, safe working order. In each of the respective sections, allowed modifications are listed. Just because a manufacturer designs a part or firearm for this sport or just because a firearm is available, does not necessarily mean it is legal for competition. Only the modifications referenced here as allowed are approved. All others are illegal. SHB p.33 Any firearm modification not specifically referenced in this Handbook is prohibited. Parties interested in having modifications, parts, or firearms considered for approval and inclusion in the SASS accepted modification text can request a Firearms Modification Consideration application from SASS Headquarters. Written receipt of acceptance from SASS will be the only source of approval. Unless referenced within these Covenants, any modifications, parts, or firearms used without this approval are illegal. ANY EXTERNAL MODIFICATION TO ANY FIREARM NOT SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED IN THIS HANDBOOK IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED SHB p.40
Shawnee Hills Posted February 27 Posted February 27 (edited) 28 minutes ago, El Chapo said: I'm not sure there's a textual basis for banning the rifle if it was equipped with a smooth thread cap. If someone is claim there is, I'd like to know what rule they're referencing. I certainly like the idea of a 9mm Luger setup to shoot with, as long as the rifle feeds effectively. I can just size my 105 grain bullet down to .356. Likely that the extended threaded barrel is an "external modification" and, therefore, not allowed. Even if covered with a smooth cap, the extended muzzle doesn't look like anything common at the time. Ultimately, it's up to SASS to decide whether it's allowed or not and then we live with the decision. I like the idea of this rifle as well. If it becomes popular, I'd expect the bullet manufactures to expand their offerings to accommodate the shooters. Not too worried about whether the threaded barrel is legal or not because it's a simple operation to remove it and recrown in the lathe. Of course, not every shooter has the capability of doing that. ETA: PWB clarified just as I was posting. As I understand it, for this rifle to be legal with the threaded muzzle, SASS will need to update the handbook to expressly state this. Otherwise, it's illegal for competition unless the threaded portion is removed. Edited February 27 by Shawnee Hills
Doc10039 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 Wow. I would have never have thought this would happen. It's getting way outside why this game/sport was started in the first place. Not a member right now my SASS # is 10039 when I was shooting I would never thought this would happen. Sad
John Kloehr Posted February 27 Posted February 27 49 minutes ago, El Chapo said: I'm not sure there's a textual basis for banning the rifle if it was equipped with a smooth thread cap. If someone is claim there is, I'd like to know what rule they're referencing. I certainly like the idea of a 9mm Luger setup to shoot with, as long as the rifle feeds effectively. I can just size my 105 grain bullet down to .356. Speaking as an engineer rather than an expert on the rules or rules committees, I too think smoothing the thread protector counts as legal. The thread is under the cap therefore it is internal. The knurling, and the 1913 rails would not be legal as they are not representative of historical (real or movie) guns. However external smoothing is expressly allowed in the rules.. I did come across another concern though. While the 9mm Luger cartridge does meet the general ammunition requirements, all rifle calibers must be generally available in revolvers. I do not know of many revolvers using 9mm cartridges. I would submit all of these items for a committee ruling. PWB stated the process above.
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted February 27 Posted February 27 23 minutes ago, Doc10039 said: Wow. I would have never have thought this would happen. It's getting way outside why this game/sport was started in the first place. Not a member right now my SASS # is 10039 when I was shooting I would never thought this would happen. Sad The game has evolved, manufactures evolve or go out of business. 1
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 27 Posted February 27 36 minutes ago, John Kloehr said: ... I did come across another concern though. While the 9mm Luger cartridge does meet the general ammunition requirements, all rifle calibers must be generally available in revolvers. I do not know of many revolvers using 9mm cartridges. ... As noted in a previous reply here, semi-auto pistol cartridges have been LEGAL for quite some time as ("commonly available" due primarliy to the number of convertible revolvers produced). That applies to rifles under the same allowance. FWIW...I had.357 revolvers (Blackhawks)with conversion cylinders to 9mm manufactured by Ruger back in the 1980's (pre-SASS) Currently have other convertible models mfg. by Ruger and Uberti (Cimarron) in various chamberings. 1 1
Stump Water Posted February 27 Posted February 27 20 hours ago, La Vista Bill said: The premise is that it will shoot cheap 9mm ammo and be a companion to 9mm SAA revolvers now being made. 27 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: FWIW...I had.357 revolvers (Blackhawks)with conversion cylinders to 9mm manufactured by Ruger back in the 1980's Yeah, 9mm revolvers certainly aren't just "now being made". 1
watab kid Posted February 27 Posted February 27 8 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Revolver Calibers - Must be centerfire cartridges of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. - Must be in a cartridge commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-40, and .45 Colt. (Includes some semi-auto pistol cartridges, e.g. 9mm, 10mm, and .45 ACP). SHB p.38 ("commonly available" due primarliy to the number of convertible revolvers produced) Rifle Calibers - Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber. - Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. ... ... ANY EXTERNAL MODIFICATION TO ANY FIREARM NOT SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED IN THIS HANDBOOK IS EXPRESSLY PROHIBITED SHB p.40 so its accepted because the revolvers are made in convertible models ? ok ,
John Kloehr Posted February 27 Posted February 27 31 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: As noted in a previous reply here, semi-auto pistol cartridges have been LEGAL for quite some time... Includes ... 9mm... You sure did post that, I glazed right past it during my first cup of coffee.
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