Bitterroot Jake, SASS #9532 Posted February 5 Posted February 5 I haven't loaded in 38Special for probably 15+ years. Bought on a few weeks ago and need advice on black powder load with a 135 yr bullet. I hand charge each case, and I make my own measures so I needed some ideas on how much BP to use. Been loading BP in 44-40 for about 30 yrs but those measure won't work for the the 38 special. Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 5 Posted February 5 Use enough powder to let the bullet compress the powder .100 of an inch when seated. 7 Quote
Lucky R. K. Posted February 5 Posted February 5 1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Use enough powder to let the bullet compress the powder .100 of an inch when seated. This. Quote
El Chapo Posted February 5 Posted February 5 I believe the dipper I use is 1.3cc. You can fill the case to the top if you want and use the bullet to compress the powder; it isn't going to hurt anything. 2 Quote
Griff Posted February 5 Posted February 5 47 minutes ago, El Chapo said: I believe the dipper I use is 1.3cc. You can fill the case to the top if you want and use the bullet to compress the powder; it isn't going to hurt anything. Depending on how hard your bullet is... you might deform it if it takes too much pressure. Normally, a practice I avoid. 1 Quote
Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 Posted February 5 Posted February 5 This is the black powder test standard: Load with 1 cc of real black powder. However, I load as OLG stated with either real black powder, Triple Seven or APP. My ammo has not been challenged for failing to meet the smoke standard. 1 Quote
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted February 5 Posted February 5 All of the above. 1.3cc is a good dipper. I just loaded 400 today on a 550, powder drop of fffg Scheutzen weighed 18.3gr. The amount of compression is not critical at all, just "some" compression. Does your bullet have soft BP lube? 2 Quote
Bitterroot Jake, SASS #9532 Posted February 5 Author Posted February 5 39 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said: All of the above. 1.3cc is a good dipper. I just loaded 400 today on a 550, powder drop of fffg Scheutzen weighed 18.3gr. The amount of compression is not critical at all, just "some" compression. Does your bullet have soft BP lube? I think I have a measure I made that holds approximately 20 gr . I can start with that and adjust the size to get close to that. I made a bunch of individual measure from copper round stock years ago just habe to locate them, and see which works best. Quote
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted February 5 Posted February 5 BP is loaded by volume. Load the cases with BP and leave enough space for the base of the bullet to be seated into the case with slight compression. No need for moderate or heavy compression, 38 spec. cases are small volume. Usually, a 1.2 to 1.5 cc of BP is enough to charge the case with 2F or 3F BP. YMMV. 3 1 1 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 5 Posted February 5 3 minutes ago, I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 said: BP is loaded by volume. Load the cases with BP and leave enough space for the base of the bullet to be seated into the case with slight compression. No need for moderate or heavy compression, 38 spec. cases are small volume. Usually, a 1.2 to 1.5 cc of BP is enough to charge the case with 2F or 3F BP. YMMV. I'm long range BP matches, it's loaded by weight. 1 1 Quote
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted February 5 Posted February 5 47 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: I'm long range BP matches, it's loaded by weight. The OP was asking about loading .38 special, not for long range. 1 1 Quote
Bitterroot Jake, SASS #9532 Posted February 5 Author Posted February 5 I know BP is loaded by volume . Between NRA BPCR and CAS I've been loading BP cartridges for over 35 years, I just needed some idea of the volume I needed so I would have a idea of where to begin. I have found over the year that BP volume and weight are very closely related. It will vary some between Bands,lot numbers and Grainulation of the powder. Weight does me more good than volume right now, all the measures I have I made and using my digital scales !measured and marked them by the weight the hold(which would vary several grains depending on the brand of powder used) I have a good supply of all three major brands,Goex,Swiss and schutzen. Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 5 Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said: The OP was asking about loading .38 special, not for long range. That response was not directed to the OP. Did you read who I quoted? 1 Quote
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted February 5 Posted February 5 20 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: That response was not directed to the OP. Did you read who I quoted? Yes and he was responding to the OP about loading for .38 special 1 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 6 Posted February 6 59 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said: Yes and he was responding to the OP about loading for .38 special He made a statement that BP is loaded by volume. Didn't specify caliber.... 1 Quote
Choctaw Kid Tulsa Posted February 6 Posted February 6 Like the others, I load with a Lee dipper 1.3cc either 2f or 3f with the real stuff using a 140gr TC bullet. Quote
Mister Badly Posted February 7 Posted February 7 I use app in my cartridges. I use an auto drum powder measure on my Lee 4 hole turret press. It's adjustable so I set it to fill to the base of the bullet for 38 special and 357. 1 Quote
El Chapo Posted February 7 Posted February 7 On 2/5/2025 at 10:01 AM, Griff said: Depending on how hard your bullet is... you might deform it if it takes too much pressure. Normally, a practice I avoid. Mine are pure lead, or as close to that as I can get to that, and I've not had that experience. Even 3f is pretty loose in the case when it's filled to the brim, which creates a lot of air space for powder compression. I have never gotten the vibe that my loads were compressed to any meaningful amount. The bullet is touching the powder but you could probably compress the powder much more with your fingertip than I do with a bullet. For those of you who haven't done it, think of it like flour that is sifted vs. flour that has been packed into a measuring cup. The volume might be the same, but the mass is far different. Quote
I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 Posted February 8 Posted February 8 On 2/5/2025 at 3:41 PM, I. M. Crossdraw, SASS# 8321 said: BP is loaded by volume. Load the cases with BP and leave enough space for the base of the bullet to be seated into the case with slight compression. No need for moderate or heavy compression, 38 spec. cases are small volume. Usually, a 1.2 to 1.5 cc of BP is enough to charge the case with 2F or 3F BP. YMMV. On 2/5/2025 at 7:33 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: He made a statement that BP is loaded by volume. Didn't specify caliber.... Did you read my statement? 1 Quote
El Chapo Posted February 8 Posted February 8 Just so you guys can get an idea of what 1.3cc looks like in a .38 case, I found a picture from the last time I loaded BP .38s. I use the 125 grain lee round/flat profile bullet in these. This is 3f Graf's black. 3 Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 A friend of mine who shot nothing but BP always said, “Grits is for breakfast” 😂 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted February 9 Posted February 9 Knowing Brother Bitterroot the way I do, I can assure you that he isn’t loading anything pantywaist to shoot! I am guessing that he is simply trying to get to the full house load in the shortest time possible and with the least amount of trial and error!! His loads will be loud and smokey with plenty of flame! Most CHN participants and Pale Rider Gunfighters would quail at the loads he’ll shoot as a matter of course! Quote
"Big Boston" Posted February 9 Posted February 9 From what I've read, Black Powder burns best if it is densely loaded, IOW if the powder has a minimum of air space between each bit or kernel of powder. Back in the day I shot mostly 4831 in my rifle cartridges, years before I became a cowboy, and I used a drop tube to fill the case. A drop tube allows you to stuff more powder into a confined space than if you don't use one. With Black Powder using a drop tube will let you get more powder into the case, not that is necessarily what a cowboy wants, but it also makes the powder burn a bit hotter and a bit more completely. A heavier bullet does the same. One article by Mike Venturino that sticks in my mind is about when he began to shoot BPCR. It was fairly common before that game became what it is today to duplex load. IOW, the common practice was to load a bit of smokeless first, then scoop in the BP and this cleaned up the ignition. BPCR does not allow duplex loads, and this article was on how to keep the same performance and not use a duplex load. Mike broke down some old ammo, and he found it compacted to the point that once removed, it would not fit back into the case. It would fit if he used a drop tube, but using a scoop and compressing the charge with the bullet did not work as well. However, a 38 Spl is not like a 45-70 or 45-90 or some of the other even larger black powder cartridges. I am curious, has anyone done any testing to see what steps or methods work to make a BP pistol cartridge burn a bit cleaner than just scooping in a bunch of powder does. The only BP that I shoot with any regularity or at all is a muzzle loader, and for that there isn't much choice, the powder had to drop the full length of the barrel and the bullet gets tamped down on top of the powder. The bullet is also a fairly tight fit in the bore so the burning powder does have some work to do. It's still dirty business, but it's possible to reload in the field without to much of an issue with pushing down a new bullet, unless you are using 777, that stuff is crud heaven. Good luck with a reload. I like the old Lyman books, they had instructions on how to load a duplex load. BB Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 10 Posted February 10 48 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: Duplex loads are not legal in SASS!! Nor in most competition shoots. Different brands of REAL BP like different amounts of compression. 1 Quote
El Chapo Posted February 10 Posted February 10 18 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said: Duplex loads are not legal in SASS!! His point remains. The way to get cleaner combustion with any cartridge is more pressure (cars are 10:1 or more now, but 100 years ago they were more like 4:1, all fuels burn cleaner and more violently when under more pressure). Of course, eventually the metal fails, so too much pressure is a problem. And duplex loads are a good way to invite that to happen, which is probably why they're not allowed in SASS. Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 10 minutes ago, El Chapo said: His point remains. The way to get cleaner combustion with any cartridge is more pressure (cars are 10:1 or more now, but 100 years ago they were more like 4:1, all fuels burn cleaner and more violently when under more pressure). Of course, eventually the metal fails, so too much pressure is a problem. And duplex loads are a good way to invite that to happen, which is probably why they're not allowed in SASS. If it’s not legal and you know it is not ever going to be legal, why discuss it?? There are other ways to obtain nearly the same results. Concentrate on those!! 1 Quote
El Chapo Posted February 10 Posted February 10 2 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said: If it’s not legal and you know it is not ever going to be legal, why discuss it?? There are other ways to obtain nearly the same results. Concentrate on those!! You'd have to ask the guy who brought up the idea. I would imagine those of you who use substitute BP are doing so because it's cleaner? I can say that real black is not clean at 1.3cc for my 38s. I can't imagine packing another 10% of it in there would make it any cleaner either....it's like filling one's cases with charcoal! But it sure is fun. 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 Just like smokeless powder, hotter loads burn hotter and cleaner. When I loaded heavy black powder loads behind my ball ammunition in my cap ‘n’ ball revolvers, they shot cleaner. Lighter loads, tuned down to reduce recoil, required better and more lube and more frequent cleaning. 1 Quote
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted February 10 Posted February 10 Maximum performance? WTH? We’re shooting steel plates 5-10 yards away, not buffalo on the plains at 1,000 yards. 1 Quote
Timothy Posted February 12 Posted February 12 IIRC the original loading for 38 special was 21gr fff with a 158lrn. I'd be curious to know the velocity of that? Quote
Warden Callaway Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) I came to own an old Colt SAA black powder frame. It was updated to 38 special with 7-1/2" barrel. I first shot it on pizza box with 105 gr black powder loads. Probably 1cc Lee scoop. Resulting in holes everywhere. Looked like a buckshot pattern. My gunsmith buddy advised me that these old barrels like heavy bullets. I leaded some up with 158 gr bullets and it actually grouped pretty well. Here is the target. I turned the cardboard around for the 158 gr. You can see the 105s coming out. Edited February 13 by Warden Callaway 1 Quote
Lucky R. K. Posted February 15 Posted February 15 On 2/10/2025 at 1:50 PM, Blackwater 53393 said: If it’s not legal and you know it is not ever going to be legal, why discuss it?? There are other ways to obtain nearly the same results. Concentrate on those!! Back 100 years, or so ago when I shot BPCR I shot a duplex load of 10% 4F black powder and the balance either 2F or 3F. It shot almost as clean as smokeless, with no wiping and was legal. Lucky 1 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted February 15 Posted February 15 1 hour ago, Lucky R. K. said: Back 100 years, or so ago when I shot BPCR I shot a duplex load of 10% 4F black powder and the balance either 2F or 3F. It shot almost as clean as smokeless, with no wiping and was legal. Lucky LUCKY!! How ya’ doin’?? I don’t know if you can really call that a duplex load!! Maybe if it was two different brands or two different batches of charcoal for the base, but just two different grinds?? All you’re doing is making a hotter load, aren’t ya’?? Other than that, you’re still just shooting Black Powder, I would think… Quote
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