Shamrock Sadie Posted February 4 Posted February 4 If you are interested in clarifications in the SHB, I have marked-up my copy of the Shooters Handbook (v. 27.6; revised Jan. 1, 2025). It has clarifications along with penalty marks suitable for printing on hole-punched paper for placement in a binder. Anytime there is a major update, I update my copy of the latest version of the handbook with clarifications and highlight key rules to review. Be sure to check back occasionally after a major SHB update to get my latest marked-up copy of the SASS Shooters Handbook. https://doilygang.com/refreshers 2 18 Quote
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted February 4 Posted February 4 Thank you Sadie, very much appreciated. All my best to you n that fella of yours. 1 Quote
Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L Posted February 4 Posted February 4 Nicely Done. Did a quick read this morning, but will do a deep dive this weekend. You work on this (and the many hours you spent) are greatly appreciated. Dogmeat & Holli 3 Quote
John Kloehr Posted February 4 Posted February 4 (edited) Went to the link in the OP. On that page, when I click the link to the markup, I get a 404 not found. Edited February 4 by John Kloehr Quote
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted February 4 Posted February 4 Thank you Sadie! Your help is very valuable and much appreciated! Gateway Kid 1 Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted February 4 Posted February 4 36 minutes ago, John Kloehr said: Went to the link in the OP. On that page, when I click the link to the markup, I get a 404 not found. Try it again, it worked for me and download. Thanks Sadie! 2 Quote
John Kloehr Posted February 4 Posted February 4 6 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said: Try it again, it worked for me and download. Thanks Sadie! Got it on retry, thanks for suggesting I try again. 2 Quote
Wyatt Hurts SASS#72737 Posted February 6 Posted February 6 What a great resource. Thank you for sharing your efforts annotating in such a clear and professional manner. 2 Quote
Shamrock Sadie Posted February 11 Author Posted February 11 Be sure to print this document (or download) and study it before EOT; especially if you’re a Posse Marshal, TO, or spotting. 1 Quote
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted February 11 Posted February 11 And thank you for the "Common Misunderstood Rules" as well! 2 Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 12 Posted February 12 SO: Now that we have Sadie's points and clarifications, when are MDs, ROs and TOs going to start enforcing Gunfighter rules?? Specifically, guns "Must Never Be held in an Unsafe Manner ie: One Gun Behind the Other." Pumpers be Aware!! Quote
Shamrock Sadie Posted February 12 Author Posted February 12 28 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: SO: Now that we have Sadie's points and clarifications, when are MDs, ROs and TOs going to start enforcing Gunfighter rules?? Specifically, guns "Must Never Be held in an Unsafe Manner ie: One Gun Behind the Other." Pumpers be Aware!! Pumping is ok, but sweeping yourself (your hand) while pumping is not safe. Pumping is slower as it is extra gun movement. 2 Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 12 Posted February 12 I do emphatically DISAGREE!! If one reads the gunfighter rule EXACTLY as written, pumping is NOT ok. I'm waiting for someone to explain the correctness of pumping?? Quote
Shamrock Sadie Posted February 12 Author Posted February 12 16 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: I do emphatically DISAGREE!! If one reads the gunfighter rule EXACTLY as written, pumping is NOT ok. I'm waiting for someone to explain the correctness of pumping?? P. 7 “The revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g., one revolver behind the other).” key word: behind Pumping isn’t always sweeping your hands. If a revolver goes back and gets behind (sweeps) the other hand, then that is unsafe. Difficult to explain (better to see it), but pumping is the movement backwards with the muzzle going slightly up so the thumb can get on the hammer. Hope this helps. 1 2 Quote
Dead_Head Posted February 12 Posted February 12 A quick clarification on this: p. 3: “Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.” Does this mean the top of the ammunition (for example shotshells) must be no higher than the belly button? Or can the bottom of the shotshells be at the belly button with most of the shotshell above the belly button? Quote
Shamrock Sadie Posted February 12 Author Posted February 12 6 minutes ago, Dead_Head said: A quick clarification on this: p. 3: “Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button.” Does this mean the top of the ammunition (for example shotshells) must be no higher than the belly button? Or can the bottom of the shotshells be at the belly button with most of the shotshell above the belly button? Any part of the ammo must be “at” or below the belly button. Bottom or top of the ammo (or anywhere in between) “at” the belly button. 1 1 Quote
Eyesa Horg Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) And since so many shooters have a belly button up at their sternum, this is one rule that ought to go. For me, it would be way uncomfortable to wear a shotgun belt up by my chest!! Plus I've never seen it questioned by anyone. I've tried to point it out to newbies and get the response of "I thought it was ok, look at his/hers". Seems to be the least reinforced rule in our game. Probably due to noone wanting to poke fingers in belly buttons!! Edited February 13 by Eyesa Horg Added text Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 13 Posted February 13 Sadie: Nope. Pumping is moving the guns "back and fourth" Ala "John Wayne." Use to be another qualifier in the Handbook. Rather than change it, it was just "left Out" and I do know who and why that was done. Different subject entirely so I'll leave that alone. Quote
Preacherman Posted February 13 Posted February 13 16 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Sadie: Nope. Pumping is moving the guns "back and fourth" Ala "John Wayne." Use to be another qualifier in the Handbook. Rather than change it, it was just "left Out" and I do know who and why that was done. Different subject entirely so I'll leave that alone. I guess that we need to get out the Webster to see exactly what "pumping" is. I'm with Coffinmaker. This just came up awhile back. If a Gunfighter sweeps his own self with a revolver, his hand, it is extremely dangerous. I've seen countless "ADs" (myself included), and it is just a matter of time until a Gunfighter shoots himself in the hand or his revolver if this is not corrected. I hope that I'm not there when it happens. I will be calling a SDQ if I ever see this from now on, maybe a match with a loaded gun. I've seen the loading table shot, at least 5 times, a hole in a holster and a WB shooter shoot himself in the leg. We can NEVER let our guard down and get lazy with this stuff. It's been a long time since the gunfighter stigma became acceptable. We don't need to go backwards. Anyway, now I feel better. Thanks for listening. Quote
Shamrock Sadie Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Sadie: Nope. Pumping is moving the guns "back and fourth" Ala "John Wayne." Use to be another qualifier in the Handbook. Rather than change it, it was just "left Out" and I do know who and why that was done. Different subject entirely so I'll leave that alone. Colorado: Nope. There isn’t anywhere in the SHB or class material that says you can’t pump. The key word in the rule is “behind.” P. 7 “The revolvers must never be held in an unsafe manner (e.g., one revolver behind the other).” If a shooter places the muzzle of the revolver behind their hand, then that is unsafe. If while pumping and the revolvers are side by side (not moving behind the hands), then that is safe. If you disagree, then perhaps you can discuss with your local TG to bring it up for discussion with the ROC. 2 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted February 13 Posted February 13 I believe that moving hands back and forth with respect to the firing line as a Gunfighter is totally acceptable so long as the muzzle of the gun does not point at a parf of the shooters body. If my left pistol is shot with that arm extended fully while I hold the other pistol in my right hand closer to my torso, but still aimed down range, I haven’t violated the letter or spirit of the rule!! Technically, I COULD use the old “throwing lead” motion, so long as I don’t allow the muzzle of either gun to point at any part of my body and I don’t break the 170 degree plane and don’t put a round over a berm or within the distance of disqualification in a prop or the ground. All that extra movement would certainly be counterproductive, as far as elapsed time goes, but it would in no way violate any rule! 2 1 Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) it use to be spelled out, Gunfighters were to hold their guns "together." Unfortunately that verbiage has been removed. If one gun is "out there" and the other is close to the body, it is BEHIND the other gun. Quit trying to "interpret" what it means. If one gun is BEHIND the other it is in violation of the Handbook. Don't interpret. Read it EXACTLY as written. If one gun is to the rear, it is behind. PERIOD. You may not like it, but that is how handbook is written. Quit pussy footing around trying to justify "pumping." I full well realize there are shooters who have been doing it for years. That does NOT make it correct. I don't currently have a TG. If a Gunfighter's guns are not held "Side by Side" and fired "Side by Side" that individual is in violation of the Handbook as written. Edited February 13 by Colorado Coffinmaker Add Commentary 1 1 Quote
Shamrock Sadie Posted February 13 Author Posted February 13 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: it use to be spelled out, Gunfighters were to hold their guns "together." Unfortunately that verbiage has been removed. If one gun is "out there" and the other is close to the body, it is BEHIND the other gun. Quit trying to "interpret" what it means. If one gun is BEHIND the other it is in violation of the Handbook. Don't interpret. Read it EXACTLY as written. If one gun is to the rear, it is behind. PERIOD. You may not like it, but that is how handbook is written. Quit pussy footing around trying to justify "pumping." I full well realize there are shooters who have been doing it for years. That does NOT make it correct. I don't currently have a TG. If a Gunfighter's guns are not held "Side by Side" and fired "Side by Side" that individual is in violation of the Handbook as written. I take offense at your tone, Coffinmaker. Regardless, "behind" is a clear word used in the rule. Side by Side while pumping is ok and it isn't unsafe. When a revolver sweeps your hand, it has moved behind the hand and at that time it is unsafe. Now taking a revolver way back to your body isn't something I've seen at all. If it gets "close" to being unsafe, then of course someone might want to "nicely" point it out to the shooter what they are doing. If you don't have a TG at your club, then the next person would be your club match director. That person can get in touch with the ROC. Hope you have a good weekend. Edited February 13 by Shamrock Sadie 2 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted February 13 Posted February 13 Technically, a Gunfighter doesn’t even have to present both guns at the same time at all!! He can shoot any stage and any scenario in “Double Duelist” fashion as he so desires, so long as he/she shoots one gun with the right hand and then the other with the left or vise-versa with the gun not being shot still in the holster!!! By the logic of one gun behind the other, that would mean that one MUST have both guns in hand when shooting Gunfighter style no matter what because the holstered revolver is IN FACT behind the other gun!! It would also mean that both revolvers would have to be drawn at the exact same time and brought to bear in total unison. I suspect that is part of the reason that the wording was changed and that part left out because it is onerous, and would lead to the kind of hair splitting that is going on in this conversation. If the wording is not in the current handbook, it is no longer, and may never actually have been, an actual rule. 2 2 Quote
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 13 Posted February 13 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: it use to be spelled out, Gunfighters were to hold their guns "together." Unfortunately that verbiage has been removed. I can find no such reference in any archived SHBs going back to 1992. ... If a Gunfighter's guns are not held "Side by Side" and fired "Side by Side" that individual is in violation of the Handbook as written. Wire discussion from 2014: Pumping revolvers is dangerous - Page 2 - SASS Wire - SASS Wire Forum Edited February 13 by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L add link 4 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted February 13 Posted February 13 🤣 This kind of stuff is why the shooter’s handbook will no longer fit in my shirt pocket and requires a bank of Philadelphia Lawyers to decipher!!! 🤪 1 Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 13 Posted February 13 Blackwater 😁 Concur with your last!! 🤪 I'll leave it at that. 1 Quote
John Kloehr Posted February 14 Posted February 14 8 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said: And since so many shooters have a belly button up at their sternum, this is one rule that ought to go. For me, it would be way uncomfortable to wear a shotgun belt up by my chest!! Plus I've never seen it questioned by anyone. I've tried to point it out to newbies and get the response of "I thought it was ok, look at his/hers". Seems to be the least reinforced rule in our game. Probably due to noone wanting to poke fingers in belly buttons!! 1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said: 🤣 This kind of stuff is why the shooter’s handbook will no longer fit in my shirt pocket and requires a bank of Philadelphia Lawyers to decipher!!! 🤪 @Blackwater, do not disagree. Still... Shotgun shell bandoliers... I used to have one and changed to belt carry, but bandoliers are legal and outside (above) the belly button rule? 1 Quote
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 14 Posted February 14 7 minutes ago, John Kloehr said: @Blackwater, do not disagree. Still... Shotgun shell bandoliers... I used to have one and changed to belt carry, but bandoliers are legal and outside (above) the belly button rule? Not Blackwater, but YES...the rules refer to "bandoliers" separately from "cartridge belts": Bandoleers, cartridge belts, and pouches must be of traditional design..." ... Ammunition belts must be worn so all ammo is positioned at or below the belly button. SHB p.3 3 Quote
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 15 Posted February 15 (edited) Shamrock Sadie Just one more 🤔 I do sincerely apologize if my "tone" offended. I did NOT intend to offend, However, one of your points is key. You said "If when pumping, the guns are side by side (Not moving behind the hands) then that is safe. I agree completely. That type of pumping is NOT what I am talking about. Many shooters pull the fired gun well behind the "firing" gun with exaggerated movement at the shoulders. Many of them are "Double Cockers." THAT is completely UNSAFE. In my not humble opine and that action is what gets my knickers in a wad. Again, I did not mean to offend. Edited February 15 by Colorado Coffinmaker I absolutely HATE Otto Quote
Shamrock Sadie Posted February 15 Author Posted February 15 43 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: Shamrock Sadie Just one more 🤔 I do sincerely apologize if my "tone" offended. I did NOT intend to offend, However, one of your points is key. You said "If when pumping, the guns are side by side (Not moving behind the hands) then that is safe. I agree completely. That type of pumping is NOT what I am talking about. Many shooters pull the fired gun well behind the "firing" gun with exaggerated movement at the shoulders. Many of them are "Double Cockers." THAT is completely UNSAFE. In my not humble opine and that action is what gets my knickers in a wad. Again, I did not mean to offend. Thanks for coming back, Coffinmaker! Appreciate your sincerity. If seen pumping like you said and they become on the edge of unsafe, probably a good time to let them know what you’re seeing so they can correct it before they get unsafe to warrant a DQ. 😀 2 Quote
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