Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 31 Posted January 31 (edited) This question came to my mind after reading the recent 'WTC' thread by Yul Lose. Using the same situation as Yul stated, NOBODY knew he had unfired rounds in his pistols (one in each revolver). Even the UNLOADING TABLE officer apparently didn't catch it and Yul was given no penalties for the stage.....as he stated in his thread. BUT, Yul (apparently AFTER being cleared from the ULT) notified posse officials of the loaded rounds and gave hisowndangself a couple of misses. Here is my question: if AFTER he has been cleared from the ULT, would the 'Penalty in Arrears' benefit be in effect? EDIT: and NO, those who know me best know that I am not one to look for ways to cheat the system. I just want to understand the Penalty in Arrears application better. THanks ..........Widder Edited January 31 by Widder, SASS #59054 2
Hoss Posted January 31 Posted January 31 I’ve wondered the same thing. Was once called clean on a stage, had one round left in a pistol. I called the miss on myself. Then the discussion was did I also have a P as my last pistol shot was definitely on last target. (Not a round count stage). So in reality, I had to have had a P as well as the miss. Determination was 1 Miss no P. But I’m not sure that was the correct call.
Yul Lose Posted January 31 Posted January 31 Thanks Widder. The UT officers feeling was that since it wasn’t called at the line by the T.O. or spotters that it couldn’t be called after the fact, I disagreed. 3
Eyesa Horg Posted January 31 Posted January 31 I'm ignorant here, what's a "round count" stage compared to a "non round count" stage?
Chancy Shot, SASS #67163 Posted January 31 Posted January 31 Non-round count -- With pistols, engage 3 targets in 2 separate Nevada sweeps. Round count -- With pistols, place 4 rounds on target 1, 4 rounds on target 2, and 2 rounds on target 3 in any order. Chancy 1
Leroy Luck Posted January 31 Posted January 31 (edited) It does state “violations noticed after shooter has cleared all firearms may not be penalized” SHB pg 4 & 33 What keeps a shooter from hurrying off the firing line to avoid a penalty that might not have been seen? Edited January 31 by Leroy Luck
Whiskey Hayes #41999 Posted January 31 Posted January 31 (edited) Widder, I believe arrears pertains to the use of illegal/items and firearms. Whiskey Page 33 Page 4 also covers illegal items The use of a non-SASS legal firearm results in a Stage Disqualification (SDQ) for each stage the illegal firearm is used. Penalties for illegal equipment/items and firearms are not awarded in arrears but should be corrected before the competitor shoots the next stage. Any violations noticed after the shooter has cleared all firearms may not be penalized. Edited January 31 by Whiskey Hayes #41999 2 2
John Kloehr Posted January 31 Posted January 31 I read the "after UT" or "arrears" directive only applying to illegal equipment, items, or firearms." Not generally to all aspects or other sections of the rules. 34 minutes ago, Hoss said: I’ve wondered the same thing. Was once called clean on a stage, had one round left in a pistol. I called the miss on myself. Then the discussion was did I also have a P as my last pistol shot was definitely on last target. (Not a round count stage). So in reality, I had to have had a P as well as the miss. Determination was 1 Miss no P. But I’m not sure that was the correct call. I note clear statements that unfired rounds are misses. No double jeopardy as a miss can not cause a P. Instead, it is a P that can lead to a miss if the shooter does not make it using ammunition legally brought to the line; also this (after a P) being the only case I find where a reload can be used to make up a miss.
Whiskey Hayes #41999 Posted January 31 Posted January 31 Hoss Since this stage had a particular target engagement order you could have gotten a P for shooting the targets in the wrong order. In this case the miss didn't cause the P. If you skipped the target that the unfired round was suppose to be engaged with you didn't earn a P because you maintained the correct target order. If TO and 3 spotters didn't see the P BOD to the shooter. Whiskey 2
Choctaw Jack Posted February 1 Posted February 1 At a recent major match after I shot a stage there was some discussion about a call. As I was leaving the ULT, I questioned the TO ( who was also th Posse Marshall) about it, and was told that it was a no call. As the posse was preparing to move to the next stage the deputy Posse Marshal came to me and said that they had discussed it and reversed their decision and I would indeed be assessed the penalty. I thought at the time that that was improper ( imposing a penalty "after the fact" ) ,but not wanting to hold up the Posse or be a pain, I didn't protest. I have also had a penalty imposed on me while leaving the ULT by the TO because a member of the Posse ( a very experienced shooter) thought I had committed an infraction. These two instances bothered me for quite some time, but life goes on. Choctaw 1
Two Dot, 14911 Posted February 1 Posted February 1 No penalties in arrears kicks in when the last gun has been declared clear at the unloading table.
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 1 Posted February 1 As already noted by others in this post, the two SHB references to "not awarded in arrears" apply to: "OUTLAWED ITEMS" on p.4 ...as well as "The use of a non-SASS legal firearm results in a Stage Disqualification (SDQ) for each stage the illegal firearm is used. Penalties for illegal equipment/items and firearms are not awarded in arrears but should be corrected before the competitor shoots the next stage. Any violations noticed after the shooter has cleared all firearms may not be penalized." SHB p.11 It does NOT mean that scoring errors (either for or against a shooter) may not be corrected after the shooter has left the firing line (as defined). Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. SHB p.44 2 5
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