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Posted

Shooter, a gunfighter shoots the stage and at the unloading table discovers a loaded round in each pistol, not under the hammer. The spotters, T.O. other shooters didn’t call for one more shot from each pistol and the shooter was given the time and a clean stage, no misses. Arriving at the unloading table the shooter unloads both revolvers and makes the discovery. The shooter goes to the scorekeeper and shows the 2 rounds and calls 2 misses on himself and the score keeper changes  the score from clean to 2 misses.  The T.O. has passed off the timer to another T.O. and finds out about the 2 rounds left in the revolvers and then calls a Stage D.Q. Even the unload officer didn’t call for misses, safety or SDQ. The pocket rule book was allegedly looked at and the SDQ call stood. What should the correct call have been?

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Shooter, a gunfighter shoots the stage and at the unloading table discovers a loaded round in each pistol, not under the hammer.

Pg 28:

 

"

Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss. (Unless the round is under the hammer, then the penalty is a Stage Disqualification).

 

"

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Posted (edited)

Other than assumption that the hammers were down on an expended round, how would he know for sure. Does anybody look for that on a "clean" shooter before they start ejecting empty cases at the ULT. It seems likely it was on an empty, as otherwise the shooter would have known he had 2 FTF. With the info provided, I'm going with 2 misses.

Edited by Eyesa Horg
Typo
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Posted

Seems odd that 3 spotters, the TO, and the shooter didn't notice that 2 targets hadn't been engaged.:o

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Posted

2 misses. Hammer almost certainly down on a fired round, unless the unfired round was the last one attempted (unlikely in this case) 

if a shooter has a ftf and goes around a time or 2 looking for the unfired round, then he should declare broken gun and ground it as he really has no idea where the unfired round is at. 

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Posted
Just now, Eyesa Horg said:

Seems odd that 3 spotters, the TO, and the shooter didn't notice that 2 targets hadn't been engaged.:o

You ever watch Rusty Remington shoot gunfighter 😉 on a round count stage a good GFer can be hard to keep up with! 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Seems odd that 3 spotters, the TO, and the shooter didn't notice that 2 targets hadn't been engaged.:o

Maybe all heard bang-clang each time without counting?

 

Shooting gunfighter too (speculation, but I can not see myself shooting one gun at a time and ending up with a round in each revolver on a stage).

 

On edit: Doh! Says right in the OP shooting gunfighter.

Edited by John Kloehr
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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Hoss said:

You ever watch Rusty Remington shoot gunfighter 😉 on a round count stage a good GFer can be hard to keep up with! 

Agreed, but still, four people not counting the peanut gallery, didn't catch that only 8 rounds were fired. Seems the spotters at the least would have been waiting for those last 2 targets to be engaged.

 

I guess I gotta give em smoke factor though!

Edited by Eyesa Horg
Added text
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Posted
4 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Agreed, but still, four people not counting the peanut gallery, didn't catch that only 8 rounds were fired. Seems the spotters at the least would have been waiting for those last 2 targets to be engaged.

 

I guess I gotta give em smoke factor though!

Well it was going to be my best stage of the match until I found the 2 loaded rounds. I questioned the call and the T.O. and posse leader both stood by the SDQ call and being an out of towner I didn’t want to stir things up. I guess I should have taken it up the chain of command but the T.O. that  timed me was very adamant that it was a SDQ.

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Posted

So much for “benefit of a doubt goes to shooter”. The shooter shouldn’t have been penalized for failure of, a minimum of 4, people not doing their jobs.
 

Should’ve been 2 misses of course…. But it’s the principle that 4 people failed to do their due diligence in their tasks. 

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Posted

Almost assuredly the hammers were not down on a live round.

  1. Assume he started with the guns properly hammer down on empty chambers.  He fires 4 rounds from each gun, the hammers would be down on the last fired round.
  2. Assume he started with hammers down on the first live round...(penalty from the get go, but we have all seen it happen). He fires 4 rounds from each gun, the hammers would be down on the empty chamber.
  3. Assume he starts with hammer down on a live round, other than the first live round.  He attempts to fire 4 rounds from each gun, hits the empty chambers and gets two clicks, then keeps going as everyone knows there is an issue.

My conclusion is that the hammers were not down on live rounds.  2 Misses.

 

As to how everybody missed it, well it depends on the target placement, sequence, black powder or smokeless, and who was shooting.  The fastest shooters are hard to count for, and that can be especially so if they shoot by double cocking their pistols.  YMMV

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Posted

WoW!  What you're saying is that for three spotters and one Timer Operator did not see or hear that only eight shots fired by the shooter was not seen or heard?

 That's a melancholy situation and so hard to say dam poor and dam poor neglect to hear this even occurred. Thank the Lord that it was discovered at the unloading table. Mercy, Mercy pilgrims and what a dam shame that this occurred.

 

I'm sorry about saying something folks and also not even any other posse members did not see or hear. Usually, other members pay attention when someone is shooting.

 

With all due respect pilgrims. God Bless.

 

JRJ

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Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Well it was going to be my best stage of the match until I found the 2 loaded rounds. I questioned the call and the T.O. and posse leader both stood by the SDQ call and being an out of towner I didn’t want to stir things up. I guess I should have taken it up the chain of command but the T.O. that  timed me was very adamant that it was a SDQ.

I applaud your handling of the situation Yul. Good on you.

I stand by my thought of it being only two misses though. By the time the TO got involved there was no way to show a hammer down on a live round, and why would it be, other than a FTF and a light hit would likely be evident. 

I've turned myself in a for a couple SDQs, but knowing meowndangself, I probably would've debated let's say, the call.

All said and done, you made the right choice especially at an out of area club. But dang my friend, that sucks.

Edited by Eyesa Horg
Added text
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Posted

Two misses! No more! No less!

 

TO’s should seek remedial training!  Spotters should be remembered and not allowed to spot until they complete RO courses!

 

That last may seem harsh, but c’mon! This is practically inexcusable!!

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Posted
56 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Well it was going to be my best stage of the match until I found the 2 loaded rounds. I questioned the call and the T.O. and posse leader both stood by the SDQ call and being an out of towner I didn’t want to stir things up. I guess I should have taken it up the chain of command but the T.O. that  timed me was very adamant that it was a SDQ.

Yul, did you load 5 or 6 rnds?:huh:

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Posted (edited)

TWO MISSES for the unfired rounds.

Any BoD to the shooter.

 

The ONLY way a SDQ could have been called on the shooter would have been the discovery of TEN empties + the TWO unfired rounds at the ULT.

Which would have been evidence of loading all SIX chambers in each revolver at the loading table.

Were the revolvers checked at the LT to verify hammers were down on empty chambers?

Which line of the "RO Pocket Card" did the TO reference to assign the SDQ?

 

SDQ would have been for either:
Changing location/moving with a live round under a cocked hammer or firearm with the hammer down on a live round. (from the LT to the stage)

or

Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures. 

SHB p.23

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
correct spelling error
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Posted

That's why it's a good idea to have a copy of the rules in your gun cart, that will help prevent incorrect calls

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Posted

Regarding spotters missing the two rounds - I shot a stage once where it was called clean by the spotters. When I got to the unloading table, both pistols were still fully loaded! No one, including myself, realized that the pistols were not shot on the stage!

 

There were extenuating circumstances that contributed to everyone missing the pistol string.

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Posted

A shooter should never be averse to "stirring things up". Any Match Director worth the title truly wants to make things right by their shooters. He or she would probably feel terrible knowing that they missed the chance to correct a wrong call.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Yul, did you load 5 or 6 rnds?:huh:

Loaded 5 in each and they were checked by the guy in back of me. The scenario was five targets in a cross or + setup. 1 on the left and one on the right  and one on top and one on the bottom and one center. Engage all 5 targets with 20 rounds, 10 rifle and 10 pistol any order, all targets had to be engaged at least once. 
 

I decided as a gun fighter I’d alternate the left and right targets for 2 shots each and then alternate the top and bottom targets for 2 shots each and then the last shot from each pistol go on the center target. I lost count and neglected to engage the center target, holstered the pistols (hammer down on an empty chamber) picked up the rifle and dumped 10 rounds on the center target, knocked 4 SG targets down with 2 shots (it was a 1+ SG round stage) and was overjoyed with my 26 second, clean stage. Picked up rifle and went to UT where I discovered the rounds and turned myself in, the UT officer didn’t believe there was a penalty at all, believe it or not. 

Edited by Yul Lose
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Other than assumption that the hammers were down on an expended round, how would he know for sure. Does anybody look for that on a "clean" shooter before they start ejecting empty cases at the ULT. It seems likely it was on an empty, as otherwise the shooter would have known he had 2 FTF. With the info provided, I'm going with 2 misses.

For a live revolver round to be in the active firing chamber, under the hammer, the hammer would either need to be fully cocked, deliberately decocked, or the round would need to be deliberately or accidentally indexed to that position at half-cock (also then decocked).  It can't really happen 'inadvertently'.   

 

But the two live rounds left in non-active chambers (not under the hammer) of a revolver are misses.  

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale
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Posted
3 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Well it was going to be my best stage of the match until I found the 2 loaded rounds. I questioned the call and the T.O. and posse leader both stood by the SDQ call and being an out of towner I didn’t want to stir things up. I guess I should have taken it up the chain of command but the T.O. that  timed me was very adamant that it was a SDQ.

Wise to ask politely for the TO to show you the penalty.

 

Randy

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Posted
6 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Well it was going to be my best stage of the match until I found the 2 loaded rounds. I questioned the call and the T.O. and posse leader both stood by the SDQ call and being an out of towner I didn’t want to stir things up. I guess I should have taken it up the chain of command but the T.O. that  timed me was very adamant that it was a SDQ.

Bless your heart! (Said with genuine southern empathy)! Of course you called the 2 misses on yourself. That’s who you are, Yul! 
 

As a gunfighter myself, I usually shoot 12 rounds, not 8! 🤣. This is a clear example that folks don’t know the rules… that if you say it loud enough and adamantly enough, it’s a SDQ or whatever.  I understand being a visitor and not wanting to make waves… 

 

Those asking how you know it wasn’t under the hammer? Because @Yul Lose called it on himself. 
 

Hugs!

Scarlett

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Agreed, but still, four people not counting the peanut gallery, didn't catch that only 8 rounds were fired. Seems the spotters at the least would have been waiting for those last 2 targets to be engaged.

 

I guess I gotta give em smoke factor though!

I agree and the TO should have been counting shots! That’s their job!

Edited by Rye Miles #13621
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Posted
1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I agree and the TO should have been counting shots! That’s their job!

ROI Page 25:

The TO should count shots fired, if possible.

 

Don't know if it was possible however, the TO's intransigence in this case is the point. The TO should have shown the Shooter where the penalty is found, in the SHB, and not been a hard a**.

I hope this TO and PM never are in a position to do this again.

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Posted

I'm kinda thinkin, I hope the TO reads this thread and offers up an explanation or apology.

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Posted
49 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

ROI Page 25:

The TO should count shots fired, if possible.

 

Don't know if it was possible however, the TO's intransigence in this case is the point. The TO should have shown the Shooter where the penalty is found, in the SHB, and not been a hard a**.

I hope this TO and PM never are in a position to do this again.

I always count the shots when I’m the TO. Do I get it 100% correct every time? No, but I try my darndest!

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Posted

As a TO, that's all you can ask for is that they do their best; sometimes you miss something. Due to being hit with splatter or whatever distraction or maybe just a very fast shooter... but FOUR people missed two shots? Time to switch out and not be butt hurt about it.

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Posted

Ya gotta tip the TO before the stage and in cash! :P

 

There are some double cockers out there that are really hard to count for.  There's a smokey double cocker around here that falls into that category.  I think folks don't yell "one more" for fear they miscounted and don't want to stop the shooter.   But the TO needs to know which rules apply when the count is off and unfired rounds are found.

 

Totes

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Posted

This tread is not really about counting rounds or miss counted rounds. This is really about knowing what the call/rule is and making it quickly and correctly. As TO I have missed some rounds, as a shooter I have sure miss counted rounds. It happens.

Take the classes, it is well worth it in these situations.

This is addressed in RO I at least twice off the top of my head maybe even three times. Like wise in RO II.

Things happen on the clock that we really dont know how they happened. Counting shoots is one of them.

Two misses, next shooter.

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Posted (edited)

Seems that not all TOs or Posse Marshals know all the rules.  Similar example this last year I shot the New York state match and was on a great posse of all locals who normally shot with each other.  Had a great time and everyone welcomed this out of town shooter from Texas.  On one stage the first day after a gunfighter shot the stage and was at the unload table they discovered he had two unfired rounds in his revolvers (1 in each) and the TO/PM gave him a SDQ.  I went to the TO/PM and privately told him that was a wrong call and it should only be 2 misses.  The next day he came up to me and said they had looked over the rules that night and I was right about only being 2 misses and they had corrected the shooters score.

Edited by Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L
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