The Demon Core

[Subdeacon Joe]

 

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

I wonder how many banana equivalent doses of radiation that was.

[Subdeacon Joe]

2,000 for the first incident. 

10,000,000 for the second incident. 

[watab kid]

way too many , 

[Pat Riot]

Sorry for this long read:

 

I am not sure if those Physicists at Los Alamos were brave, overeducated dumbasses or just under the influence of hopeful notoriety. 
I worked with Physicists and Sr. Engineers at Hughes for 5.5 years ‘83-‘88 in R&D labs.
In regard to the Physicists their goals were lofty and to create or discover something that would garner them praise and recognition from other Physicists around the world in Academia. 

I often wondered how many of the Physicists not only in the U.S., but throughout the world have injured or shortened the life spans of themselves and their colleagues chasing the answers that could get them notoriety among their peers. 
 

Many Physicists that I knew were quite unassuming men that were brilliant at what they did, but lacked a certain level of common sense.

We dealt with radiation for testing in our labs, but nothing like the Demon Core. We had small radioactive test sources that were stored in lead “pigs”. These sources were basically the size of a 1/4” drive screwdriver bit with a radioactive pellet on the end. I do not recall the strength of the radioactivity of these “sources” but a couple of them were low. Just enough to register or show that they were aligned for the testing of electronic chips used in satellites for radiation hardening. 
We also had a couple of pigs that had small but powerful radioactive sources. If someone said “We need the big pig for testing” the level of excitement in the lab went from elevator Muzak to 70’s rock within seconds. These sources were not to be trifled with. 
Now, for setting up these chip and circuit board radiation tests the test bench was set up near our lead hut test area. Basically, the lead hut was a bunch of 4x8x3 solid lead bricks that were stacked to make an enclosure around the test fixture that held the devices to be tested. Cables and test leads were routed between to bricks and there was a specific brick with a hole in it the size of the source. This brick and the test fixture had to be aligned so the “Test Source” could be inserted into the hut on a wand and placed against or near the chip or board to be tested without the ability to actually see the circuit and the wand from outside the hut because once the lead lid was place on the hut via a small bridge crane the testing Physicists could not physically see the source or the test circuit. 
The test source was kept in a mock lead pig so the Physicists could open the pig and use the wand (basically a gun cleaning rod with a female 8-32 head) to screw the source into it then the source is introduced into the hut for alignment adjustments. 
Nearly every Physicist had their own Test Source and they all Carri’s them in their pockets during test set ups. 
I was constantly telling these guys that this was a very bad habit and that could lead to mistakes that could get someone hurt. I also told them they should have a “2 man rule” when dealing with radiation so they could safety check each other. I was ignored as I was a mere knuckle dragger. 
Anyway, I said all this to lead up to this.

We had a Physicist that was doing a particularly high profile test for the Air Force. He had a demonstration to do for some Air Force brass using a really high radiation source to show that the new chips developed for a project were sufficiently radiation hardened and would operate well within specs. 
Mike worked very hard and put in some long hours getting this test ready. I noticed him constantly checking the alignment of everything and using his dummy source to the alignments. The dummy source he carried in his pocket like a little trophy. 
One day Mike asked me to holler him move the Big Pig into place and he commenced actual radiation testing. Whenever the top of the Big Pig was opened I left. My job was not to be handling that crap and I has no intention of allowing a bunch of absent minded Physicists to ruin my life.

So, Mike’s test went off perfectly. The Air Force brass was pleased and now Mike had to disassemble the entire setup which took a couple of days. 
On day 3 after the test some nuke auditors came to the lab and I was assigned to assist them. 
We put on your lead aprons and masks and I opened each pig and retrieved the sources so we could show the sources were there, the sources matched the documentation for rad levels and that they were in the proper pig. 
When we got to the biggest pig I immediately knew something was wrong when I looked inside to align the wand to screw it onto the source to retrieve it. The source was the color of aluminum, not stainless steel. I pulled the source out and as I was showing it to the inspectors I saw the word “DUMMY” etched into it
My heart sank.

All hell broke loose. 
Long story short: For 3 days Mike the Physicist has been carrying the highest level rad source we had in the lab around in his pants pocket.

He was immediately hospitalized. Auditors swooped in from the Air Force. Sweat pumps were fully online. People weee questioned. Procedures were scrutinized and in the end all of the recommendations provided by one lone Sr. R&D Tech (me) were turned into procedure's.

From that day on I was a pariah in that lab. Why? Because I had no degree yet the PhD level intellectuals had to follow procedures that I helped develop utilizing my Navy experience and the standards & regs set by the Air Force. 
In the end, Mike the Physicist was deemed

“Okay” but would not be fathering any more children. He was made to sign a document exonerating Hughes and the Air Force should he later succumb to radiation related disease or injury. 

 

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

What the video says in the first 1:30 is incorrect with respect to Little Boy, the uranium bomb, a “gun type” weapon.

[Subdeacon Joe]

42 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

Sorry for this long read:

 

I am not sure if those Physicists at Los Alamos were brave, overeducated dumbasses or just under the influence of hopeful notoriety. 
I worked with Physicists and Sr. Engineers at Hughes for 5.5 years ‘83-‘88 in R&D labs.
In regard to the Physicists their goals were lofty and to create or discover something that would garner them praise and recognition from other Physicists around the world in Academia. 

I often wondered how many of the Physicists not only in the U.S., but throughout the world have injured or shortened the life spans of themselves and their colleagues chasing the answers that could get them notoriety among their peers. 
 

Many Physicists that I knew were quite unassuming men that were brilliant at what they did, but lacked a certain level of common sense.

We dealt with radiation for testing in our labs, but nothing like the Demon Core. We had small radioactive test sources that were stored in lead “pigs”. These sources were basically the size of a 1/4” drive screwdriver bit with a radioactive pellet on the end. I do not recall the strength of the radioactivity of these “sources” but a couple of them were low. Just enough to register or show that they were aligned for the testing of electronic chips used in satellites for radiation hardening. 
We also had a couple of pigs that had small but powerful radioactive sources. If someone said “We need the big pig for testing” the level of excitement in the lab went from elevator Muzak to 70’s rock within seconds. These sources were not to be trifled with. 
Now, for setting up these chip and circuit board radiation tests the test bench was set up near our lead hut test area. Basically, the lead hut was a bunch of 4x8x3 solid lead bricks that were stacked to make an enclosure around the test fixture that held the devices to be tested. Cables and test leads were routed between to bricks and there was a specific brick with a hole in it the size of the source. This brick and the test fixture had to be aligned so the “Test Source” could be inserted into the hut on a wand and placed against or near the chip or board to be tested without the ability to actually see the circuit and the wand from outside the hut because once the lead lid was place on the hut via a small bridge crane the testing Physicists could not physically see the source or the test circuit. 
The test source was kept in a mock lead pig so the Physicists could open the pig and use the wand (basically a gun cleaning rod with a female 8-32 head) to screw the source into it then the source is introduced into the hut for alignment adjustments. 
Nearly every Physicist had their own Test Source and they all Carri’s them in their pockets during test set ups. 
I was constantly telling these guys that this was a very bad habit and that could lead to mistakes that could get someone hurt. I also told them they should have a “2 man rule” when dealing with radiation so they could safety check each other. I was ignored as I was a mere knuckle dragger. 
Anyway, I said all this to lead up to this.

We had a Physicist that was doing a particularly high profile test for the Air Force. He had a demonstration to do for some Air Force brass using a really high radiation source to show that the new chips developed for a project were sufficiently radiation hardened and would operate well within specs. 
Mike worked very hard and put in some long hours getting this test ready. I noticed him constantly checking the alignment of everything and using his dummy source to the alignments. The dummy source he carried in his pocket like a little trophy. 
One day Mike asked me to holler him move the Big Pig into place and he commenced actual radiation testing. Whenever the top of the Big Pig was opened I left. My job was not to be handling that crap and I has no intention of allowing a bunch of absent minded Physicists to ruin my life.

So, Mike’s test went off perfectly. The Air Force brass was pleased and now Mike had to disassemble the entire setup which took a couple of days. 
On day 3 after the test some nuke auditors came to the lab and I was assigned to assist them. 
We put on your lead aprons and masks and I opened each pig and retrieved the sources so we could show the sources were there, the sources matched the documentation for rad levels and that they were in the proper pig. 
When we got to the biggest pig I immediately knew something was wrong when I looked inside to align the wand to screw it onto the source to retrieve it. The source was the color of aluminum, not stainless steel. I pulled the source out and as I was showing it to the inspectors I saw the word “DUMMY” etched into it
My heart sank.

All hell broke loose. 
Long story short: For 3 days Mike the Physicist has been carrying the highest level rad source we had in the lab around in his pants pocket.

He was immediately hospitalized. Auditors swooped in from the Air Force. Sweat pumps were fully online. People weee questioned. Procedures were scrutinized and in the end all of the recommendations provided by one lone Sr. R&D Tech (me) were turned into procedure's.

From that day on I was a pariah in that lab. Why? Because I had no degree yet the PhD level intellectuals had to follow procedures that I helped develop utilizing my Navy experience and the standards & regs set by the Air Force. 
In the end, Mike the Physicist was deemed

“Okay” but would not be fathering any more children. He was made to sign a document exonerating Hughes and the Air Force should he later succumb to radiation related disease or injury. 

 

 

 

First, a peeve - why do people apologize and call anything over 50 words "a long read?"  50 pages, yeah, that's a moderately long read, but this was barely 1000 words. 
That out of the way, excellent post.  

I don't think your statement

52 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

I am not sure if those Physicists at Los Alamos were brave, overeducated dumbasses or just under the influence of hopeful notoriety. 

which disparages all of the physicists at Los Alamos is fair.  I'm fair certain that some of them fit those descriptions, but, in general, people in that field go into it driven by curiosity and a drive to try to Understand How It All Works.    They were voyaging into uncharted waters. They had theory on paper, or chalkboards, but how well did that theory match up with the Physical Universe and How It All Works?  

I think those incidents were caused by complacency and a huge dose of hubris.  "Hey!  I've done this dozens of times!"  Like the fast draw people who blow a hole in their leg with a blank.  

 

The flip side is that in the two incidents in the video they knew instantly what they had done and took the necessary steps to keep it from getting worse.  And Slotin, knowing, KNOWING, he was a dead man, keeping his cool and mapping out the exposure of everyone in the room, amazing.

As to "overeducated dumbasses,"  I've noticed that a fair number of people with advanced degrees are dumber than a box of rocks on anything outside their narrow field. 
 

[Pat Riot]

7 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

I don't think your statement which disparages all of the physicists at Los Alamos is fair

You may not think so, but I do. How much experience do you have working with PhD level Physicists?

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

We (1/36 Arty, an 8” Bn) had a Lt who declined to be involved in any of the supervisory roles for the Special Weapons teams because of the potential for reproductive harm.  Obviously not a career officer.

[Subdeacon Joe]

17 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

You may not think so, but I do. How much experience do you have working with PhD level Physicists?

 

Not many, maybe 4 or 5, but dozens of geologists, including geophysicists.  Maybe, pardon the pun, the geologists are just more down to earth and practical than nuclear and theoretical physicists.  

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

1 minute ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Not many, maybe 4 or 5, but dozens of geologists, including geophysicists.  Maybe, pardon the pun, the geologists are just more down to earth and practical than nuclear and theoretical physicists.  

You should meet the astrophysicists.

[Caprock Kid]

On 1/30/2025 at 6:48 AM, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

We (1/36 Arty, an 8” Bn) had a Lt who declined to be involved in any of the supervisory roles for the Special Weapons teams because of the potential for reproductive harm.  Obviously not a career officer.

I was an 155mm SP (4/3 FA) Battery XO in Germany (seems like a long time ago). Led the nuke team. We went to the igloos and touched the ‘rounds’ - they were warm even in sub zero temps. 
I was always asked by people if I would fire a nuke. My answer - if I’m firing a nuke from a howitzer the Soviets are coming and it’s way too late to worry about ethical decisions…..but hell yeah!
 

[Pat Riot]

On 1/30/2025 at 8:06 AM, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

You should meet the astrophysicists.

Far out, Man! 

[SHOOTIN FOX]

1/18th Augsburg 80-82

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

After 28 years working  in support of PHDs building big bombs I am impressed if I find one who is well versed in his degree field, yet most of them  think  that they know  everything about everything. The TV show Big Bang Theory  could pass for a docu-drama.

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

I forwarded this thread to a friend who works at the Bomb Factory.  He is a chemist, not a physicist.

His reply is below:

 

Well, since teaching criticality safety to our line technicians, as well as engineers and physicists, is part of my job, I'll weigh in on this one.  First of all, that's a REALLY GOOD photo of the "demon core" and the beryllium reflector shells; better than the one from LA-13638.  Both accidents with that core were due to people, as he said, thinking, "I've done this dozens of times and know what I'm doing," and what they did was contrary to the written procedures they had for the experiments.  Both experiments were aimed at gathering precise information on the neutron reflecting qualities of tungsten carbide in the first accident, and beryllium metal in the second.  We knew next to nothing in those days.  

 

1.  They were not supposed to work alone.

2.  Slide the WC bricks into place from the outer edge.

3.  Use steel spacers around the periphery of the previous Be shell so that the next one will not come fully down into place.

4.  FOLLOW THE WRITTEN PROCEDURE!

 

There have been 22 reported criticality accidents world-wide over the course of 80 years.  MAYBE two of them did not result from breaking the written rules.  The rest were all preventable.  9 people died, and some had amputations or developed cataracts.  LA-13638 [LA-13638, "A Review of Criticality Accidents" 003731912] gives the stories, including doses in many cases.  Doses were almost never measured (hardly ANY EVER are) based on distance to the event and estimated number of fissions.  In some cases, people saw a "blue flash."  In others, a criticality accident alarm sounded, and in some, both.  

 

The physicist at, Hughes was it?, was dealing with completely different sources.  They are radioactively hot all the time, and do not change like fissile material can.  I believe people have died from finding things like the "big pig" source and carrying them around.  ANY source kept in a pig is dangerous when bare.  That's why they stay in a pig when not in use.  The "demon core" would probably have fatally irradiated anyone who carried it around in a pants pocket all day for 3 days, but then again, it weighed something like 13 pounds, and was hot to the touch.  I don't think you could forget you were carrying it.  

 

They told me when I began working in Burlington that you wanted high school grads, MAYBE BS holders, to work on the line, because they would mostly follow directions without trying to improve the procedure or going off on their own because they had a better idea.  And, I once read that our weapons (not just nuclear) are designed by Ph. D.s, manufactured by people with a BS, and used by people with a high school diploma.  In our work, a technician will come up with an improvement occasionally, and the suggestion gets thoroughly evaluated, and sometimes incorporated.  Maybe even often.  Some people have many good ideas, and some only think about TV and a beer after work.  

 

And, some are thrown into the sea to sink or swim.  I had a student the week before last who is female, older, and probably only has a high school education.  She failed the end of course exam, I suspect mostly because she hasn't taken a test in 15-25 years.  Due to the number of low exam scores, a couple of years ago, we made the last page of our Power Point presentation advice on test taking and we leave it on the screen till all the exams have been turned in.  There's really no excuse for failing an exam if you can read English (possibly a contributor).  She passed the retake exam this morning.  So, her score improved at least 14%.  

 

A degreed physicist ought not to have trouble understanding the hazards of radiation, but criticality can be counterintuitive, sometimes in the extreme.  Two weeks ago, I asked the class who had had physics, and about half had.  When I asked if any had nuclear physics, nobody raised a hand.  And hardly anyone knows how a chain reaction works.  They are the same for a nuclear reactor or for "drying" paint.  An initiator (neutron or free radical) causes a reaction, which generates more initiators and the reaction cascades to more and more reactants taking part.  Both nuclear and chemical chain reactions can lead to explosions.  But normally, nuclear chain reactions only irradiate the hell out of you in a fraction of a second.  Sometimes only a part of you, such as the event, I think in Argentina, where a guy had his foot on the edge of a pool reactor and was circumventing the rules.  The overridden tank filling control kept pumping, and finally, criticality was achieved.  The radiation basically killed his foot, which had to be amputated.  If his body had been over the tank, he almost certainly would have died.  

 

And, this sort of thing is not confined to radioactive materials.  Think of all those Tannerite "experiments" gone wrong.  Why would you want to put 50 to 100 pounds of HE inside a washing machine or refrigerator and then detonate that HE while you are watching, in the open, from only 100 to 200 yards away.  They ought to have read THIS[Explosive_weapon_effects_web.pdf]  first.  Early on, it has a good photo of something impacted by fragments.  

 

With that, I'll sign off.

 

HSB

[Pat Riot]

@Duffield, SASS #23454 thank you for posting that and please thank your friend for his input. Very well done. 

[watab kid]

this affected a lot of lives in a lot of ways - ill admit it affected mine - i would not probably exist if it were not for the bombs , my father would most likely not come home , no one can look back and say for certain , but it was his thinking that he shared when the anniversaries of these two bomb runs came around on the calendar , he felt that there were a lot that would not come home , 

 

unfortunately their were a lot that did not come home delivering them to tinian , the crew of the Indianapolis , as well as all those that lost their lives because the empower would not accept the war was lost , 

 

i realize i shifted thetopic a little but it seemed to center it again in my mind , i feel that a lot of life was lost in this development and a lot in its deployment , i also think a lot were saved , 

im not going to dip my hand into the discussion moving forward with development or the proper protocols of handling as thats never been an area i had anything to do with , i do believe we need it in our lives in a human way making life better - power production and medical  to name a couple , glad there are so many knowledgeable in the field among us , 

Edited February 5 by watab kid

[Subdeacon Joe]

19 hours ago, watab kid said:

 

i realize i shifted thetopic a little

 

It follows logically from the first. 

I also,  as well as 2 of my brothers would likely not be around if Operation Downfall had been carried out.   

 

[watab kid]

5 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

It follows logically from the first. 

I also,  as well as 2 of my brothers would likely not be around if Operation Downfall had been carried out.   

 

thanks and sorry for the shift , this just hit home as it has come up many times in my lifetime , it was a major decision that president had to make based on the info he was provided at the time , im glad he made it as he did , ill never ever say i wished this upon the japanese population of that time , much as my father said numerus times he regretted the fire bombing of the major cities , but it was war and we needed to win it to have peace again , 

 

i grew up in different times than that and different than now , my perspective was formed in that time , i had an adopted japanese war bride aunt that i never realized she was not a real aunt till i was aware that santa wasnt real , im now married to a lady that grew up in japan during viet nam , i was not raised with any hatred nor animosity to the japanese people , but im glad that war was ended and ill admit i think those bombs were necessary , i also think had we not firebombed the major cities they would have never  given up , we had to end it , decisively , its sad but a fact , there is nothing good of war but it being over 

[Subdeacon Joe]

4 hours ago, watab kid said:

thanks and sorry for the shift , this just hit home as it has come up many times in my lifetime , it was a major decision that president had to make based on the info he was provided at the time , im glad he made it as he did , ill never ever say i wished this upon the japanese population of that time , much as my father said numerus times he regretted the fire bombing of the major cities , but it was war and we needed to win it to have peace again , 

 

i grew up in different times than that and different than now , my perspective was formed in that time , i had an adopted japanese war bride aunt that i never realized she was not a real aunt till i was aware that santa wasnt real , im now married to a lady that grew up in japan during viet nam , i was not raised with any hatred nor animosity to the japanese people , but im glad that war was ended and ill admit i think those bombs were necessary , i also think had we not firebombed the major cities they would have never  given up , we had to end it , decisively , its sad but a fact , there is nothing good of war but it being over 

 

As I've said many times, I don't mind shifts/high jacks of threads I've started as long as there is some tangential relationship, and, as above, this really isn't a shift, as it follows directly from the research involving The Demon Core.  

I was raised around WWII vets, most social events were VFW or Knights of Columbus and the Knights were mostly WWII vets who were also members of that VFW post.  The only ones who really harbored any animosity to the "Japs" as they were known in the day, was by those who had been their prisoners. And not even all of them held hatred for them.   But not a one of them had any qualms about using the Bomb on Japan.  Most of the men in that VFW post were Marines who had been slated for some part of Operation Downfall.  And all were of the opinion that if it had been carried out the USMC would pretty much have ceased to exist.  Just enough survivors to establish a beachhead for the Army to land in those sectors.  And the general opinion was that the Army would have done to Japan what Rome did to Carthage.  

 

Ultimately those two bombs saved millions of lives by making invasion unnecessary.  I know the usual arguments that the Allies could have blockaded Japan and starved her into submission, but how would millions of deaths by starvation and disease be any better than a few hundred thousand deaths by nuclear weapons?  

[watab kid]

12 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

As I've said many times, I don't mind shifts/high jacks of threads I've started as long as there is some tangential relationship, and, as above, this really isn't a shift, as it follows directly from the research involving The Demon Core.  

I was raised around WWII vets, most social events were VFW or Knights of Columbus and the Knights were mostly WWII vets who were also members of that VFW post.  The only ones who really harbored any animosity to the "Japs" as they were known in the day, was by those who had been their prisoners. And not even all of them held hatred for them.   But not a one of them had any qualms about using the Bomb on Japan.  Most of the men in that VFW post were Marines who had been slated for some part of Operation Downfall.  And all were of the opinion that if it had been carried out the USMC would pretty much have ceased to exist.  Just enough survivors to establish a beachhead for the Army to land in those sectors.  And the general opinion was that the Army would have done to Japan what Rome did to Carthage.  

 

Ultimately those two bombs saved millions of lives by making invasion unnecessary.  I know the usual arguments that the Allies could have blockaded Japan and starved her into submission, but how would millions of deaths by starvation and disease be any better than a few hundred thousand deaths by nuclear weapons?  

thanks , and i also was raised in vets and VFWs so i had similar experiences , one that stood out to me was a survivor of batan , he was in terrible health after the war because of what he suffered , i learned of it a little at a time over the years as he never really talked all that much so yes i recall those that harbored ill will for the "japs" 

also some marines that were in the island hopping , so yes i did here of that as well , mydad a very respectful attitude for the marines that took saipan/tinnian ,