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Posted

    We are seeing more and more videos every day. Videos of everything. People walking down the road. People having lunch, or picking their nose at a stop light in their car. There are cameras everywhere. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy anymore, so people are more careful with things we do than we were 30 years ago. 

     There are no exceptions with shooting videos being posted. Chances are if youre shooting a stage, it may be being recorded. We live in a fortunate time when we can analyze shooters, methods, and efficiencies. We can get the equivalent of many hours of practice simply by sitting on our butts and watching videos of shooting done right....and wrong. 

     There are times when videos will be put up for viewing, where we will see a rule be broken and not get caught or called. This is just going to happen. It is now part of the game. Video evidence cannot be used to make a call and won't be made after a match. I hardly ever see anything mentioned in the comments of these videos. Probably because etiquette dictates people don't want to be the one who points it out. I can understand these videos leaking through with someone just video dumping to you tube or wherever of their local match.

    What surprises me is the number of shooters posting their own videos with very obvious 170 violations or other obvious infractions. It may be holding their offhand pistol straight down beside the holster while shooting the other or pointing the pistol straight across the firing line 180° when they turn to move or holding the shotgun or rifle straight up or down 180° or their holsters almost touching each other. I know sometimes there's doubt when watching a video and you cant tell. But sometimes there is no doubt and thats what I'm referring to. Think of the fuss for one of a shooters' championship runs where a blatant violation wasn't called. It'd be rough on the 2nd place shooter to see it. There are probably videos of me breaking some kind of rule out there, but hopefully not one that I posted. 

  I'm just saying maybe watch your own shooting videos before posting them. 

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Posted
3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

 ...

  I'm just saying maybe watch your own shooting videos before posting them. 

 

The same goes for still photos posted on club websites and other social media platforms (e.g., Facebook).
I have compiled an extensive file of blatant equipment & rule violations that have been used as examples in ROC and "WtC?" discussions; as well as teaching aids for RO courses and other corrective instruction.

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Posted
6 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

    We are seeing more and more videos every day. Videos of everything. People walking down the road. People having lunch, or picking their nose at a stop light in their car. There are cameras everywhere. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy anymore, so people are more careful with things we do than we were 30 years ago. 

     There are no exceptions with shooting videos being posted. Chances are if youre shooting a stage, it may be being recorded. We live in a fortunate time when we can analyze shooters, methods, and efficiencies. We can get the equivalent of many hours of practice simply by sitting on our butts and watching videos of shooting done right....and wrong. 

     There are times when videos will be put up for viewing, where we will see a rule be broken and not get caught or called. This is just going to happen. It is now part of the game. Video evidence cannot be used to make a call and won't be made after a match. I hardly ever see anything mentioned in the comments of these videos. Probably because etiquette dictates people don't want to be the one who points it out. I can understand these videos leaking through with someone just video dumping to you tube or wherever of their local match.

    What surprises me is the number of shooters posting their own videos with very obvious 170 violations or other obvious infractions. It may be holding their offhand pistol straight down beside the holster while shooting the other or pointing the pistol straight across the firing line 180° when they turn to move or holding the shotgun or rifle straight up or down 180° or their holsters almost touching each other. I know sometimes there's doubt when watching a video and you cant tell. But sometimes there is no doubt and thats what I'm referring to. Think of the fuss for one of a shooters' championship runs where a blatant violation wasn't called. It'd be rough on the 2nd place shooter to see it. There are probably videos of me breaking some kind of rule out there, but hopefully not one that I posted. 

  I'm just saying maybe watch your own shooting videos before posting them. 

You need to stop watching my videos hoping to learn something. 

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Posted (edited)

I enjoy occasionally posting videos myself shooting.   The most common reason I do so is to showcase a particular gun being used.   Occasionally, someone has commented on "you moved your foot illegally" which led to a discussion as to if I did or not, but it doesn't bother me.  Oddly, no one has ever commented to the effect of "if you did this" or "if you didn't do that" your times would improve, even though I am sure that with a slow shooter like me, there are plenty of examples.

Rather, even when the video I post is an absolute train wreck, I would hope that people can see that I am having lotsa FUN at the time.   I think that's the most important thing.   And on those occasions when someone mentions something that can or should be different for whatever reason, I always welcome the comment, as I know it is meant to be helpful.

I also occasionally am surprised by what I see.  Like how I think I did slightly better with a pre-83 94 than I did with a pre-safety Rossi 92.

Oh well.

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619
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Posted

I'm much slower on video than in real life - why?

When I'm on the firing line, ...bang bang bang ...and I'm done !  On video, it's like 50 freaking seconds !!??  WHY ??!!

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Posted
50 minutes ago, T-Square said:

I'm much slower on video than in real life - why?

When I'm on the firing line, ...bang bang bang ...and I'm done !  On video, it's like 50 freaking seconds !!??  WHY ??!!

We all know video adds not only 10 pounds, but 20 seconds! 

 

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Posted

Glad to see this posted.  Hope it leads to a productive discussion towards making those safety calls.

 

I've been around long enough now to have seen many rule violations go uncalled.  Of course, some are just missed but the #1 violation that seems to never be called is breaking the 170 (180 when reholstering) with the revolvers.  Yes, that one is difficult for a TO to spot but it can be brought to the attention of the TO by others as well.  Then you have the calls that aren't made simply due to protecting a buddy.  That gets mighty frustrating.  It also get plenty frustrating being called on a violation but then seeing that violation go uncalled on another shooter.  I've earned my share of penalties in this sport but those were only the fault of one person . . . ME.  While I get plenty disgusted with myself, it's certainly not the fault of whoever called it.  What baffles me are the ones that go on attack for being called on a violation they committed.  In my mind, they've just earned themselves a 30 second SoG penalty but I've never seen that called.

 

One of the worst things that I've done in this sport is to become ROI & II certified because it really focused my attention on the rules and violations thereof.  Running the timer in CAS is more difficult and frustrating than USPSA.  Back in my IPSC days, ROs were expected to treat every shooter equally with regards to rule violations and, for the most part, this was done.  SASS is much more relaxed in that a 'rule following' TO is somewhat looked down upon as a hard@#$.  This is confusing to me.  Isn't the safety of all participants in a match more important than feelings?

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Posted

It's not uncommon to hear stories about folks witnessing multiple rule violations going uncalled, which is understandably frustrating.  I always wonder, where was this person when the violation occurred and if it was a safety violation why didn't they call it themself?

 

If you see it on video obviously it's too late to make the call, but if you're present when it occurs...

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Posted
1 hour ago, Shawnee Hills said:

Glad to see this posted.  Hope it leads to a productive discussion towards making those safety calls.

...  What baffles me are the ones that go on attack for being called on a violation they committed.  In my mind, they've just earned themselves a 30 second SoG penalty but I've never seen that called.

...

 

You've probably never seen that called because the penalty for going on the attack is NOT a 30-second SoG

REF: SHB p.24 - FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME 

 

...it is a MATCH DISQUALIFICATION for:
- Belligerent attitude or unsportsmanlike conduct. 

and/or

- Interpersonal conflicts. 

SHB p.24

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Posted
2 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

You've probably never seen that called because the penalty for going on the attack is NOT a 30-second SoG

REF: SHB p.24 - FAILURE TO ENGAGE/SPIRIT OF THE GAME 

 

...it is a MATCH DISQUALIFICATION for:
- Belligerent attitude or unsportsmanlike conduct. 

and/or

- Interpersonal conflicts. 

SHB p.24

Indeed but has that ever been applied?  A case like this would be subject to interpretation (some may consider it a significant event worthy of a MDQ whereas others would simply blow it off) depending on the folks involved but that's where the MD comes in handy.

Posted
18 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It's not uncommon to hear stories about folks witnessing multiple rule violations going uncalled, which is understandably frustrating.  I always wonder, where was this person when the violation occurred and if it was a safety violation why didn't they call it themself?

 

If you see it on video obviously it's too late to make the call, but if you're present when it occurs...

 

TW's OP addresses a good point regarding that issue.

Often the camera (hand-held or stationarily positioned) records violations that are not visible to bystanders.

One of the most egregious reholstering 180 violations I've ever seen was not noticed until the video replay...

too late to "make the call" and video may NOT be used in doing so (REF: SHB p.25)

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Shawnee Hills said:

Indeed but has that ever been applied?  A case like this would be subject to interpretation (some may consider it a significant event worthy of a MDQ whereas others would simply blow it off) depending on the folks involved but that's where the MD comes in handy.

 

YES...it HAS been applied.

The application of the penalty is generally based on the attitude of both parties involved, as well as the words and actions of the participants.

I've also personally seen this rule invoked (although rarely):

Any shooter, guest, or match official who uses foul language, is disrespectful, offensive, rude, or becomes belligerent or threatening in any manner will be 
disqualified from the event and, at the discretion of the Match Director, may be required to leave the property. 

SHB p.3

 

 

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
edit txt
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Posted (edited)

Videos as far as I am concerned are a  training device that can help shooters become safer and more efficient shooters. They can review and analyze and make what changes are beneficial to themselves. If they dont want to be video taped just tell the person with the camera.  most of us will not record or erase any videos. 

Edited by Maddog Mark
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Posted
44 minutes ago, Maddog Mark said:

Videos as far as I am concerned are a  training device that can help shooters become safer and more efficient shooters. They can review and analyze and make what changes are beneficial to themselves. If they dont want to be video taped just tell the person with the camera.  most of us will not record or erase any videos. 

That's fine for PERSONAL use, but it's a different situation than posting on public domains. As a courtesy, if nothing else, a shooter that's been filmed should have the option of allowing it to be posted on any social media.

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Posted

The oddity of some videos that show a penalty is that sometimes we read/hear that the WRONG penalty was actually

called, i.e..... a Minor Safety is called a 'P' and vice-versa.

And if some of you notice WHO may have called the wrong penalty, they have Black Pin certification.   Yes, it happens.

 

I ain't speaking for PWB (I wouldn't dare), but I bet he's wanted to pull out a few whiskers over those wrong calls.

 

One of the reasons TW tries to stay updated and ensure his Black Pin is used and honored correctly is because

he's always having to correct me..... :)

 

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted
2 hours ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

That's fine for PERSONAL use, but it's a different situation than posting on public domains. As a courtesy, if nothing else, a shooter that's been filmed should have the option of allowing it to be posted on any social media.

whoever asks to be removed or not filmed is their choice. i dont got a problem with it. 

Posted
23 minutes ago, Maddog Mark said:

whoever asks to be removed or not filmed is their choice. i dont got a problem with it. 

The problem with that is that a shooter does not always know by who or when they are getting filmed. They should be concentrating on the stage and safety, not checking to see who's got a camera. I believe it should be up to the filmer to ask permission.

 

 

Posted

As I was shopping for RVs recently 2 different salesmen asked me if I was in a cowboy action shooting video. I tried to parlay my fame & 270M views into a free RV, but no go 🥲 

 

Videos are good for training. While I’ve never called anyone out publicly, I have told them privately that a video showed a rule violation, in hopes that it’s a learning opportunity for them. I would hope that my Pards would do the same for me. 
 

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Posted

its all about learning unless your filming for tik tok. my videos are taken where i cant be seen doing any filming. But the shooters know i am filming but not when. 

Posted
6 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

With my new Meta Ray Ban glasses I plan to record all kinds of incriminating video of Widder and TW at Tennessee State.IMG_1099.thumb.jpeg.f58dc77408344f05d5b8ced2683ea74a.jpeg

 

I'm incriminating for sure......... Plus, sometimes I make meowndangself look bad.  :)

 

P.S. - took me a couple seconds, but I thought that was Tom Selleck wearing some Foster Grants.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

In this day and age I think it’s safe to assume that you may be on video no matter where you are or what you are doing. 
 

Randy

Yes.  As long you are on public property or in areas that are readily accessible by the public you have no legal expectation of privacy. 

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Posted

No comment.  Ahhh, to he-double hockey sticks with it.  While sometimes it's blatant enough to be readily recognizable on a video, I've seen many that've called a violation on a video, that IMO, is questionable.  One of the great things about being human is having eyes that face the same direction, gives humans the ability to distinguish distance... yet most folks are terrible at it.  Another feature thereof is referred to as "perspective"... yet again, most folks fail miserably at recognizing how a particular vantage point will alter their perception of an event.  I daresay most folks can't readily tell the difference between 160º and 170º of an article in motion, when viewed from behind, even less so as their position moves off to the side.  You're more likely to guess the angle when you're directly behind the action vs. any point laterally, and less accurate as you move farther or closer to the 180º to the side of the action.  You'd have to be pretty visually blessed to tell the difference between 165º & 170º.  But, perception is always real in everyone's mind.  If you perceive that someone violated the 170º, then for you they did.  That don't make it a fact in other folk's mind.

 

I suggest you take a protractor, lay it flat on the table, then lay your gun down on it, and point the muzzle at different degrees , then move your own carcass laterally and look at the muzzle.  Do that at typical distances you place yourself on the stage.    I think you'll find yourself surprised at just how much of the muzzle you can see when the gun is at the 145-150º mark.

 

*  The use of "you" throughout this is meant to be taken as the collective "you", not a specific "you".   I think everyone would benefit from such an exercise.  

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Posted
8 hours ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

That's fine for PERSONAL use, but it's a different situation than posting on public domains. As a courtesy, if nothing else, a shooter that's been filmed should have the option of allowing it to be posted on any social media.

I AGREE - that's why I keep my videos on my OnlyFANs page.  Subscribe and learn at your own risk ! (joke)

Posted

I personally do not want videos of me on the internet. I know of at least one because I have been told about it. Just personal preference.

kR

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Posted
13 hours ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Yes.  As long you are on public property or in areas that are readily accessible by the public you have no legal expectation of privacy. 

 

That's the "legal expectation" of privacy. Truth is that anytime you walk out of your residence, you are extremely likely to be on some type of recorded surveillance that has the possibility of being posted to a public domain.

 

That said, I would prefer to be informed of being videoed during a match, or otherwise....and the ability to opt out of video recording. 

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Posted
1 minute ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

That's the "legal expectation" of privacy. Truth is that anytime you walk out of your residence, you are extremely likely to be on some type of recorded surveillance that has the possibility of being posted to a public domain.

 

That said, I would prefer to be informed of being videoed during a match, or otherwise....and the ability to opt out of video recording. 

 Why I wear cloths when I go out.😉

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Posted
34 minutes ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Why I wear cloths when I go out.😜

I actually prefer clothes.  Just a cloth or two still leaves a person pretty exposed!

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Posted
17 hours ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

The problem with that is that a shooter does not always know by who or when they are getting filmed. They should be concentrating on the stage and safety, not checking to see who's got a camera. I believe it should be up to the filmer to ask permission.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Cypress Sun said:

That's the "legal expectation" of privacy. Truth is that anytime you walk out of your residence, you are extremely likely to be on some type of recorded surveillance that has the possibility of being posted to a public domain.

 

That said, I would prefer to be informed of being videoed during a match, or otherwise....and the ability to opt out of video recording. 

 

You ever read the fine print on the waiver you signed to enter the match? Many of them have a line about waiving rights and approval to photograph and/or video. Not going to say they all do, but I'm reading one for a "big" match right now, and it is right there in the fine print.

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I'm incriminating for sure......... Plus, sometimes I make meowndangself look bad.  :)

 

P.S. - took me a couple seconds, but I thought that was Tom Selleck wearing some Foster Grants.

 

..........Widder

 

 

More like Tom Foolery! 🤪

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631
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Posted
1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

You ever read the fine print on the waiver you signed to enter the match? Many of them have a line about waiving rights and approval to photograph and/or video. Not going to say they all do, but I'm reading one for a "big" match right now, and it is right there in the fine print.

 

Yes, I have read the waivers. Match directors don't like it when you cross out the word 'indemnify'. When the waiver refers to taking pictures, video or the like...I am of the opinion that it refers to match officials/employees/etc. doing the pictures/video/etc., not match participants. Either way, there's nothing I can do about it.

Just stating my personal preference.

Posted
1 hour ago, Griff said:

I actually prefer clothes.  Just a cloth or two still leaves a person pretty exposed!

 

2 hours ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 Why I wear cloths when I go out.😉

 

Obviously, a he's man of the cloth.

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