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Posted (edited)

I was watching Gavin Toobe's Ultimate Reloader video in which he is loading 9mm on a RCBS Pro Chucker 7 progressive press. There is a noticeable amount of movement of the die plate (tool head to Dillon fans) in the press frame when the cases meet the dies at the top of the stroke. He explains that he keeps the three set screws that align the die plate in the locked position somewhat loose which, he says, allows the dies to float and self-align on the cases. He notes that his Dillon-using buddy operates the Dillon press with only one of the two tool head locator pins installed, also to allow some play in the tool head which, he says, also allows for floating self-alignment. What do you think of this -- particularly as it applies to Dillon progressive machines? I load on an XL750 and it seems to me that if the tool head is not lined up perfectly, at stage 1 the case mouth will collide with the inside leading edge of the sizing/decapping die. Or am I wrong and have it backwards, that I should remove the rear locator pin to help the sizing die "find" the case mouth?

[Update: it is possible that he is talking about a Dillon 550 only; I'm not sure if his comment is meant to apply to the 650/750 family.  I don't know how the machines differ as I'v never had a 550.]

Edited by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702
Posted

Don't know which is better, but loose die plates/tool heads sounds bad to me.

  • Like 1
Posted

I think I’d trust the manufacturer on this one. If Dillon put two locator pins in, I’d use them. 
 

But, I can see where a little movement in the head might not be a bad thing, as long as it’s repeatable. As an example, I use a Lee turret press and the rotating head does move up and down just a tad with each stroke of the press. But that’s in the design of the thing. Never saw the movement create any problems..

 

Sam Sackett 

  • Like 1
Posted

I don't have any crushed cases, misaligned bullets, or other notable problems using my Dillon 550s run exactly as the manufacturer designed them.  No problems detectable in cowboy shooting, at least, shooting fast at large targets set close.   Reading and applying a few experimental techniques from high precision or long range shooters seems overkill for our game - wasted time and effort that has no pay-back.  I need more live fire time.

 

Now, for long range rifle, I load on a more precise turret press, but I get no where near doing all the work of a Precision Rifle Shooter.

 

good luck, GJ

Posted

I for one do not subscribe to that theory at all. 

 

The Dillon 550 is fairly precisely made, not perfect, but it is adjustable. IOW, Dillon sells an alignment tool and the shellplate platform can be adjusted to align precisely with the first (sizing die) hole in the tool head. A loose tool head would make that alignment less precise, is that what you want? It may work for a RCBS Pro Chucker, I'm not familiar with it's operation or how it's built, but if it's built like some of my RCBS stuff, the alignment could be off. In addition, Dillon makes their FL, seating and crimp die with a slightly larger inlet funnel to allow for the bit of wiggle/waggle that occurs when a reloader is in a hurry. When I crush a case, it is usually because of me, not the machine, unless the alignment needs readjusting. Recently I has an issue with the primers, and so i removed the priming tube assembly, aligned the platform precisely, (Just like in basketball, all air, no net.) I cleaned everything, reinstalled and aligned the primer arm, again just air, no net, and it works like new. I think I fail to realize how many rounds I load, and ignore maintenance until I have an issue, my bad. 

 

BB

  • Like 3
Posted

All my tool heads stay tight on my SDB. Occasionally I don't put a case all the way in and it hits the size die, without any thoughts, I just push it into the shell plate that little smidge. A loose tool head just sounds like a loss of precision and repeatability to me.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Posted

 

Seems to me that if a toolhead/dieplate must be loose and/or have "play", or secured contrary to manufacture instructions, to accommodate an improperly indexing counterpart...the machine is way out of adjustment or alignment. Metal on metal "play" is never good, particularly aluminum (or alloy) on aluminum (or alloy) "play".

 

Sorry, can't subscribe to the "loose/play" theory

 

 

 

 

  • Like 2
Posted

I totally agree with those who prefer things be tight rather than loose. Anytime in the last 42 years that I have had issues with cases not entering dies properly (size, powder, seat or crimp) it has always been something came loose or was dirty. A cleaning and realignment of things resolved the problem. If loose solved alignment issues, automobile engines piston clearance would not be measured in thousands of an inch. For that matter why bother to provide COAL measurements in a reloading manual if the tolerance of the machine is so sloppy you can see and feel it?

Regards

:FlagAm:  :FlagAm:  :FlagAm:

Gateway Kid

  • Like 4
Posted

If the manufacturer designed it to be loose that would be ok for me. That said my Dillon 550 and SDB are setup according the the manufacturer. I do have a collection of crushed cases in several calibers but that was due to operator error. I am thinking in this Tight is Right

 

 

Hochbauer

Posted

I've loaded on a 550 since 1987 for several pistol cartridges, 45 Colt, C45S, 38Spl, .44-40, 45Auto, .38 S&W, 40S&W using a mix of RCBS, Dillon & Redding die sets.  I have dies that are tight and ones that have a bit more tolerance in them.  All  sets have carbide sizer dies.  Once I started getting alignment issues with the sizers, I just wiggled the handle back & forth and they eventually went in and still made good ammo.  The ones that gave the most problems were 45Auto & C45S, as they used RCBS dies, the 45 Colt was only an issue at the seater die, all dies with alignment issues that showed up after about 30 years of use were RCBS.  Not because of die wear or actual alignment, but because the various pivot points on the press were such that the ram would not consistently stay aligned under the toolhead.  I eventually called Dillon and talked to them... The suggested I remove all items from the press that were necessary for loading and send them the basic press.  I did, and a couple weeks later I got a 550C sent back.  After setting it up, all alignment issues are gone.  Over the 30+ years I used my original 550B, I had to occasionally re-tighten the base plate to the top of the ram.  Changing shell plates requires the careful adjustment of it's tolerances to ensure steady & smooth operation.  This is helped by the use of a flat torrington bearing under the retaining screw.  I got mine from UniqueTek, but mine is similar to the set for the 650/750 vs the 550 I see listed on their site.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

This is one of those subjects that is easily overthought.  In terms of Dillon equipment, it doesn't help that there are aftermarket parts/kits that either lock all movement out of the toolhead or allow the individual dies to float.  Those offerings remind me of fishing lures where most of them are designed to catch fishermen's dollars instead of fish.  I've never had a problem running the factory setup which includes loading very accurate highpower match ammo on the 550.

 

Whenever I've run into the problem of the case mouth colliding with the sizing die on my 750 it is because the feed cam rod is out of adjustment.  That needs to be set to just slide the case fully into the shellplate and no more.  Every time I've set it to push the case in plus a little the case springs back out of alignment with the die.

 

 

Edited by Shawnee Hills
Typo
  • Like 3
Posted

The times I have crushed a case mouth on my XL650 it hasn't been because the toolhead was loose.  I bought some of UniqueTek's Kool Aid so every tool head has their Toolhead Clamp Kits to remove any possibility that shifting allowed by the clearance between the pin holes & pins is the source of sizing die collisions with straight wall case mouths.  The toolheads with floating #1 & #4 lockrings are sold as producing more concentric ammo.  They center the sizing & seating dies around the case.  That won't reduce the incidence of crushed case mouths; because the case mouth is crushed when the the end of the die that is perpendicular to the axis hits the case mouth.  To prevent unacceptable case wobble in station #1 the press has to be mounted on a stable platform & the case feed cam must be aligned correctly.

 

P.S. I have had the issue with both the Dillon 45 Colt sizing die & LEE 38/357 sizing die.  I use a LEE breech lock single stage press to load cartridges I use in low volumes like 350 Legend, 400 Legend and 44 Special & Magnum.  These long case straight wall cartridges wobble more at the case mouth.

Posted

i was never a machinist but both my father [a machanical engineer] and my grandfather were or started that way , in my youth i was taught to set up machines for wood and metals , i recall that everything locked up tight in every case , i think "play" would be bad - dont want it in my reeloaders 

Posted
6 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Dillion makes a tool for adjusting the alignment of the shell plate to the tool head.  It is well worth the money. 

 

https://www.dillonprecision.com/13713

 

image.png.8fa5dc47fde12cdd8d15a889b3fa0a85.png

That tool's primary function is for angular alignment of the sub-plate when replacing the ring indexer.  The OEM indexer is plastic and its top end can be accidentally sheared off under certain circumstances.  Armanov makes and sells an aluminum ring indexer.  Whether the Armanov or a replacement plastic OEM indexer is being installed, this alignment tool is needed to put the sub-plate (that is, the platform on which the caliber-specific shell plate sits) back in precisely the correct angular position.  I've not experienced any issues regarding the angular position of the sub-plate, however.

 

The problem I get occasionally, and only with 9mm cases by the way, is the collision of the outermost chord of the case mouth with the corresponding outermost segment of the RCBS sizing die in station 1.  I see two possible causes that I'll be playing with: first, the amount of play in the shell plate itself and, second, some adjustment of the feed pusher ramp.  As to the first, I think I set my shell plates properly to have just the tiniest bit of "wobble" but maybe trying to get zero wobble is even better for the 9mm case.  I use a wide variety of once-fired range brass and maybe the rims of some brass cases are shorter than others, which I can see would increase wobble some.  Regarding the second, I never adjust that part of the machine regardless of caliber.  I volume load 45 Colt, 357 Mag and 9mm, all with the case pusher set exactly the same way.  Maybe some adjustment is needed, though I can't see how or why that would be so.  

Posted

Keeping the shell grooves clean in the edge of the Dillon shell plate is very important to my success loading .45 auto on my 550.  (.45 Colt cases I seem to have little problem with.)

 

I never shoot 9 mm, so I don't have experience to assist you on that. 

 

Second cause is just failing to push a case fully into position at the deprimer/size (#1) station. 

 

And the same station's shell support plate attachment screws (underneath and hard to get to) I have started blue "Loktite"ing in place, since those seem to loosen up without that Henkel solution after about 3-4K rounds loaded. 

 

good luck, GJ

Posted

I see nobody actually answered your question :D

 

NEVER play in the Tool Head!!!

  • 1.  They are way to small for you to stand in.
  • 2.  Still sorta small for any playing with hands or fingers
  • 3.  They get too messy after any serious playing!

I'm glad i could help you out..  By the way, which way did you come in?

  • Haha 2
Posted

The Dillon toolheads intentionally have about .004" of "play" built in. The idea is that you tighten all die lock rings with a case up in the dies, and always have a fired case in the sizing station when adjusting the other dies. Tightening the lock rings under a load ensures that the dies are centered in the toolhead. Having a fired case in the size die while you set the other dies ensures that the toolhead is fully lifted up , so your dies are all aligned with each other as well. 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Posted
2 hours ago, Mogollon Munk,SASS#303 said:

The Dillon toolheads intentionally have about .004" of "play" built in. The idea is that you tighten all die lock rings with a case up in the dies, and always have a fired case in the sizing station when adjusting the other dies. Tightening the lock rings under a load ensures that the dies are centered in the toolhead. Having a fired case in the size die while you set the other dies ensures that the toolhead is fully lifted up , so your dies are all aligned with each other as well. 

This procedure is also mentioned in Dillon's set-up videos.  

 

One thing that some overlook is the importance of mounting the press to a very stable bench.  Unstable mounting WILL result in unsatisfactory case behavior.  My bench has a 2" thick top with 4x4 legs and is bolted to the concrete wall and floor.  The strong mount still allows a slight bit of movement of the case feeder during cycling but it's not enough to cause problems.  That little bit of movement did cause problems when I had the bullet feeder hanging off the side of the case bowl but isolating that to its own stand took care of it.

Posted

 

I've been loading on a pair of Dillon 650s better than 25 years.  I do not advocate "play" in the Toolhead.  There is little to no play from the factory.  Also, I don't like play in the Shell Plate.  If the case is running into the resize die, something isn't correctly adjusted or perhaps lubricated. 

  • Like 1
Posted

Way to long ago to remember we used a forester press to reload for 600 and 1000 yard shooting, both the dies and the jaws that held the case had a small amount of movement to allow the bullet and case to align, that set up proved to reload the most accurate rounds of all the presses we tried, I don’t think a small amount of movement is typically a bad thing YMMV

  • Like 1
Posted
20 hours ago, Shawnee Hills said:

This procedure is also mentioned in Dillon's set-up videos.  

 

One thing that some overlook is the importance of mounting the press to a very stable bench.  Unstable mounting WILL result in unsatisfactory case behavior.  My bench has a 2" thick top with 4x4 legs and is bolted to the concrete wall and floor.  The strong mount still allows a slight bit of movement of the case feeder during cycling but it's not enough to cause problems.  That little bit of movement did cause problems when I had the bullet feeder hanging off the side of the case bowl but isolating that to its own stand took care of it.

There is zero movement of my heavy bench, which is bolted to three vertical steel beams in the wall.  I do not have a bullet feeder.

Posted
5 minutes ago, Oak Ridge Regulator said:

Way to long ago to remember we used a forester press to reload for 600 and 1000 yard shooting, both the dies and the jaws that held the case had a small amount of movement to allow the bullet and case to align, that set up proved to reload the most accurate rounds of all the presses we tried, I don’t think a small amount of movement is typically a bad thing YMMV

Some presses are designed to allow the dies to float.  The Dillon XL750 isn't one of them.  I didn't think the RCBS Pro Chucker 7 was one either, which is why I was so surprised to see it in Toobe's YouTube segment.

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