Last Call Saul Posted January 11 Posted January 11 (edited) I used to shoot IDPA and 3 gun in the past. Been doing CAS for 4 years and love it. It’s winter now, no cowboy matches till April and I am about to join a local USPSA club, get my skills back, possibly shoot a qualifier and get into some matches in the limited optics category. i am wondering if shooting modern optics pistol will mess up with my muscle memory and set me back in CAS? These are very different skill sets. anyone here competes in both? Do you find it hard to switch back and forth? Edited January 11 by Last Call Saul Quote
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 At one time, I shot cas, Wild Bunch(really hard), modern 3 gun, IDPA, and USPSA all at once. Only problem I had were some silly rules some places had. One range had a rule that if you put a firearm down with a magazine in it, the safety had to be engaged. Focusing hard on Wild Bunch at the time, with the gun going down empty at slide lock, that was how I put down the 2011 I was shooting. It earned me a match DQ. Completely empty gun, in the proper dump box. Didn’t(couldn’t) have the safety engaged. Oh, well. Karma, though. I was a sponsored shooter and a month later that match called me to sponsor their match the next year. Let’s just say, we had a talk. Quote
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 You don't shoot CAS in winter?? 4 1 Quote
Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 Posted January 11 Posted January 11 Klondike Classic ? think I will stay by the fire CB 1 2 Quote
Last Call Saul Posted January 11 Author Posted January 11 Yeah, no takers around here to shoot in winter, and I would not be one. The local indoor shooting range has USPSA training nights twice a week, and I just got the right gun - a Dan Wesson DWX, which was all tricked out for a Limited Optics minor. Using it to punch paper in the square range is a shame, and I am jonesing for some shooting fun. Knowing myself, I will be sucked back into it in no time. The club will have a qualifier in early spring, and I might just go and do it But I am definitely staying with CAS and want to stay competitive, I have plans for a few state matches and Gunsmoke for next year, and I don't want to deteriorate in CAS because my muscle memory is "distracted." 1 Quote
Rip Snorter Posted January 11 Posted January 11 We had our own group that used an indoor range and shot our own SASS / CAS matches at off hours. We had unique events and with planning were able to have fun and still remain within range rules. It is in the interest of the range to fill all of their positions in down time. The trick is to talk with them and make a deal. Unfortunately, though living in the country far outweighs it, I do miss it. 1 Quote
John Kloehr Posted January 12 Posted January 12 (edited) I'm not able to shoot any sport when it is cold, something called Reynaud's. I had to drop out of a competition a couple months ago when my fingers got too numb; thawing them from the car dash vents was painful. I shoot a lot of sports, Steel Challenge with .22lr pistol, .22lr rifle, 9mm and .45 semi-auto pistol, .38 special OK too, I just don't. I have thought about using SASS pistols and rifles for the same*... More the rifle, as there are enough rule differences to concern me switching the revolvers between these sports. I'll get to your specific question, bear with me for a few paragraphs. Continuing 22lr, there is a Metal Madness competition held near me, this is a mix of stages from different 22lr competitions, and is mostly 2-gun (rifle and pistol). There are a bunch of .22lr sports. For semi-auto pistol in centerfire, also have and shoot USPSA and IDPA near me, also have a variant calleded BUG. Limited barrel length, only 5 rounds, 1 string per stage. Mostly like the group and the "mulligan" option. Pay extra for a use it or lose it reshoot. Must call for the mulligan in that stage, no going back later. One mulligan per competition, mulligan score stands even if worse than the initial score. Another new 2-gun I just did (GunZerker), plus there is 3-gun. I shoot that too. And sporting clays, I just did not warm up to the fully orchestrated formal clays shooting. Sort of (too much of) a ballet... I'm finally looking at optics in some of the sports. I shot everything with irons so far, except one local club .22lr rifle shoot where the rules (due to specific target and distances) made is so I simply could not see the bullseye with irons but could see it at twice the distance with a scope. So I added a scope to one of my guns, zeroed it, and found out my ammo wandered in any random direction an inch off of center. Went and had fun anyway and shot donuts around the bullseyes. Hey, I'm slow in all sports, I turn 3 second Steel Challenge strings with my Ruger 10/22 rifle on a good day, which is pitiful compared to some of those I shoot with. The biggest differences between sports are the safety/handling rules particularly for long guns. SASS is muzzle up, action open. Steel challenge is bagged or chamber flag. Most sports are flagged and muzzle down. I'll stress this. Safety protocols between sports roughly divides into three categories. SASS/CAS, Skeet/Clays, and all of the others. I am starting my first optics build, a suppressed 9mm SBR. I will compete with it. I'm not worried about muscle memory for the optics or for the manual of arms on any firearm I own. This is not the problem as far as your question. For your question, it is the differences in safety rules, everything from the cart to the line and back to that cart which can bite you among all the different sports. These requirement require deliberate attention and consideration in each environment Some are obvious and some are subtle. This muscle memory is far more important than optics (which are not required). And a step further, there is one club I no longer join for 3-gun. This club decided it was perfectly safe to have helpers clear discarded firearms at the same time the TO and competitor are still down range. "Have to keep the squad moving" per the organizer. I did not file a complaint, I just quit shooting with them. I did make room for the organizer to let me know the protocol changed after (or even before) someone gets shot in the back, I would be happy to rejoin at such a time. Nobody touches my guns without my permission! Safety is the biggest thing to deal with among the different sports, Not the arms, not the options, but how the safety rules work together as a set to keep the environment safe for everyone, and being deliberate in understanding and complying. The gun? Each has a feel when I pick it up. As soon as I touch it, I know if it is a handgun or rifle, revolver or Semi, lever or semi, AR or AK, SxS, '97, my Remington, my AK beast, my Maverick (bought as a bear gun, bruises my shoulder with full-load slugs, know it the moment I pick it up). Might be a moment of uncertainty between my Baretta 92s, one is irons, one is optics, just have not shot the optic one a lot. But still feels different on draw due to different holster.. * Footnote for SASS guns in Steel Challenge. Theoretically supported (per the organization), but reloads between strings are slower. Recovering rifle brass will further slow a squad, no clear statement on BP acceptance, clear statement that dressing the part is appreciated, check with your local club before showing up. This might be a good way to add exposure for SASS. And I would recommend staying with rifle (bring a soft case) for reasons beyond the scope of your question. I do note some Steel Challenge shooters have money, many have $6,000 into a single rifle. I have maybe $300 into mine and might actually be looking at a trigger job soon. On edit: I would use any gun I have for self defense. Sometimes I compete with my carry firearms, sometimes I compete with guns "tuned" for competition. I do not carry tuned guns, Id do compete with carry guns for the practice and to shake out any issues with these guns and my carry rigs. Edited January 12 by John Kloehr 1 Quote
Last Call Saul Posted January 12 Author Posted January 12 While important, following the rules and safety is not a concern for this post. I am asking about the muscle memory like when the buzzer goes off and your fingers automatically go to engage the safety vs hammer cocking, or you use your weak hand with your revolver in a master grip instead of the grip we use to cock the SAA hammer, or something like that. Quote
John Kloehr Posted January 12 Posted January 12 4 minutes ago, Last Call Saul said: While important, following the rules and safety is not a concern for this post. I am asking about the muscle memory like when the buzzer goes off and your fingers automatically go to engage the safety vs hammer cocking, or you use your weak hand with your revolver in a master grip instead of the grip we use to cock the SAA hammer, or something like that. No for me, the muscle memory for the specific arm kicks in as soon as I have a hand on it. I get faster with practice. I don't find the other competitions impact this other than splitting experience between different arms. Quote
DukeSoprano Posted January 12 Posted January 12 You are 1 hour from me and we have an ICORE All Classifier Match here in Rockford on Jan. 20 First times free and I supply everything you need, Revolver, belt, ammo etc. https://rockfordrevolvershooters.com/ Quote
Baba Laydown Posted January 12 Posted January 12 The rules are more challenging for me coming from IDPA/IPSC and just getting into CAS. Pistol work just carries over pretty much, although grip style is a bit different for the revolvers because I generally shoot 1911 type pistols. I find myself missing over the targets sometimes if I don't use the sights. The rifle and shotgun mechanics are very new to me so that's a totally different beast. 1 Quote
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 Shooting with an optic has also improved my iron sight shooting. I'm using more target focus with both optics and irons. I do get my eyes checked Monday. He said last year that possibly this year or next could be time for cataract surgery. I haven't had glasses set up for a while that allows me to see the irons very clearly. With non prescription shooting glasses I see the optic dot great. As far as switching between different firearms, it has been no issue for me. 1 Quote
John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 7 hours ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said: You don't shoot CAS in winter?? My hands don’t work well in the cold. 1 Quote
Pat Riot Posted January 12 Posted January 12 I used to shoot IDPA while shooting SASS. The problem (not really a problem) was I would go Cowboy Duelist when shooting IDPA. Seriously though, I never really had a problem between the two. Quote
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 12 Posted January 12 (edited) I shoot the Rimfire Challenge at my home club. I use a 10/22 with a red dot and I also use a Smith & Wesson semi auto pistol with adjustable sights. It doesn’t seem to affect my cowboy shooting. I think any shooting helps. It’s all “ trigger time” . Edited January 12 by Rye Miles #13621 2 Quote
Shawnee Hills Posted January 12 Posted January 12 Even though I hadn't shot competition pistol for over 2 decades, I was surprised how well my IPSC shooting carried over into CAS. Just had to keep reminding myself to look at the front sight because there was no dot. My highpower experience didn't help my rifle runs at all. Quote
Pat Riot Posted January 12 Posted January 12 Oops! I forgot something. I do recall that a couple of times when the timer went off I drew my right side revolver, aimed, squeezed the trigger and nothing. I didn’t cock the hammer. I was able to start over since I didn’t actually fire the gun, but I had to mentally check myself on that boo-boo and keep telling myself “cock the gun, cock the gun” before each stage for a little while. 1 Quote
watab kid Posted January 13 Posted January 13 a lot of us have or did shoot other venues before and while here , i shot 3-gun with a couple friends that also shot USPSA and IDPA along with trap , skeet and sporting clays , we were younger then some of my crowd still shoot trap and sporting clays but ive backed away in recent years because i cant see well anymore , stay with anything you do as long as you can , life is short , we all live it differently but all of us miss wgat we can no longer do well , Quote
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 13 Posted January 13 One of the best things about discovering your first type of shooting competition is that it makes you aware that there are competitions out there. After shooting SASS then getting interested in 1911s I wondered what competitions might be fun with the 1911. Discovered IDPA then USPSA. A local club started an ICORE club and I picked up S&W 586 and 686. 3 Quote
Cyrus Cassidy #45437 Posted January 13 Posted January 13 Pard, I'm not currently shooting both, but I used to shoot both plus IDPA. One thing I will tell you is this: Trigger time is trigger time. Any practice you get will improve your gun handling overall. That being said, be prepared. It's a different group of people altogether. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just different. But those USPSA guys are way more cutthroat and intensely focused on winning. You won't find the friendliness that you'll find at a SASS match. If that's for you, then great. 1 Quote
Last Call Saul Posted January 13 Author Posted January 13 10 minutes ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said: Pard, I'm not currently shooting both, but I used to shoot both plus IDPA. One thing I will tell you is this: Trigger time is trigger time. Any practice you get will improve your gun handling overall. That being said, be prepared. It's a different group of people altogether. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just different. But those USPSA guys are way more cutthroat and intensely focused on winning. You won't find the friendliness that you'll find at a SASS match. If that's for you, then great. I am well aware from my IDPA and 3gun days. Thats why I moved to CAS. I am not planning to be competitive in it, shooting minor power factor in Limited Optics will make sure of that just to do something in winter. CAS is my commitment and that's why I was worrying 1 Quote
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 13 Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Last Call Saul said: I am well aware from my IDPA and 3gun days. Thats why I moved to CAS. I am not planning to be competitive in it, shooting minor power factor in Limited Optics will make sure of that just to do something in winter. CAS is my commitment and that's why I was worrying Everyone is shooting minor in Limited Optics so you're at no disadvantage within that division unless you're looking at the overall results comparing your results to Open or PCC shooters. Much like a Duelist looking at the overall results. I've never shot modern 3 gun but all the other action shooting sports including SASS have a similar mix of personalities in my experience. Quote
Last Call Saul Posted January 13 Author Posted January 13 33 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said: Everyone is shooting minor in Limited Optics so you're at no disadvantage within that division unless you're looking at the overall results comparing your results to Open or PCC shooters. Much like a Duelist looking at the overall results. I've never shot modern 3 gun but all the other action shooting sports including SASS have a similar mix of personalities in my experience. I guess 9mm 2011 are becoming more and more popular. It used to be 40sw ruled the sport I have to say that a lot of people I met at my times shooting modern would not be relaxed enough to dress up as a cowboy or anything else. Quote
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 8 hours ago, Last Call Saul said: I guess 9mm 2011 are becoming more and more popular. It used to be 40sw ruled the sport I have to say that a lot of people I met at my times shooting modern would not be relaxed enough to dress up as a cowboy or anything else. More and more shooters especially new shooters like to be able to shoot fairly cheap 9mm factory ammo without being at a scoring disadvantage compared to major scoring. Limited Optics, Carry optics and Production are scored minor only, even if you choose to shoot major power factor ammo. LO and CO have become very popular. Of course shooters who have no interest in Cowboy movies, history, or guns aren't going to be wanting to dress up as cowboys. Shouldn't be a surprise. Quote
John Kloehr Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) 11 hours ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said: ... It's a different group of people altogether. I'm not saying it's bad, it's just different. But those USPSA guys are way more cutthroat and intensely focused on winning. You won't find the friendliness that you'll find at a SASS match. If that's for you, then great. This does depend on the club and the sport. There are several clay ranges near me and one is much friendlier than the others depending on if you have the right gun and possibly a proper profession. For 3Gun, there is one group I no longer shoot with. For good reasons I will not go in to. The 22lr sports (including Steel Challenge which includes pistol caliber centerfire) seem to be generally welcoming of everyone in my region. So as to people, the sport does make some difference, but the specific club (group of shooters) is more important. As to comments above, trigger time is trigger time. I am planning cataract surgery for the spring, will learn (will see? ) what that does to my vision and perhaps going to optics in some sports. But I will still show up at SASS matches as I can. I do not want to lose the fundamentals of iron sights, and there is a special sense of satisfaction which comes with actually working all the steps to release the next bit of lead. Edited January 14 by John Kloehr will Quote
Last Call Saul Posted January 14 Author Posted January 14 9 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said: More and more shooters especially new shooters like to be able to shoot fairly cheap 9mm factory ammo without being at a scoring disadvantage compared to major scoring. Limited Optics, Carry optics and Production are scored minor only, even if you choose to shoot major power factor ammo. LO and CO have become very popular. Of course shooters who have no interest in Cowboy movies, history, or guns aren't going to be wanting to dress up as cowboys. Shouldn't be a surprise. Frankly, I was/probably still am not that interested in cowboys and westerns. First western I watched was after I got into CAS :). I like all shooting and firearms so when I acquired a SA revolver I looked into what to do with it and attended the SASS match. I "came for the game and stayed for the people" CAS is so much more laid back, "no high stakes" sport, I really enjoy that part - personalities, aliases, humor, costumes as much as shooting and competing. In my time in 3-gun and practical shooting it was "too high strung", too serious. People questioning power factors, weights and sizes of pistols - "the box". People looking down at you because the "U" next to your name. IDPA people saying USPSA was a "fantasy" word because you didn't have to reload "under cover", USPSA people looking down on IDPA people because they were "slow"... Quote
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 8 minutes ago, Last Call Saul said: Frankly, I was/probably still am not that interested in cowboys and westerns. First western I watched was after I got into CAS :). I like all shooting and firearms so when I acquired a SA revolver I looked into what to do with it and attended the SASS match. I "came for the game and stayed for the people" CAS is so much more laid back, "no high stakes" sport, I really enjoy that part - personalities, aliases, humor, costumes as much as shooting and competing. In my time in 3-gun and practical shooting it was "too high strung", too serious. People questioning power factors, weights and sizes of pistols - "the box". People looking down at you because the "U" next to your name. IDPA people saying USPSA was a "fantasy" word because you didn't have to reload "under cover", USPSA people looking down on IDPA people because they were "slow"... There are rules that need to be followed to conduct a fair competition in each sport. Less so in SASS with ammo requirements. SASS also does stress the entertainment value more then the other action sports. But they all would not be successful if shooters aren't entertained to some level. Quote
Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 I occasionally shoot USPSA/IPSC Steel Challenge. Shooting my CZ P-01 in the Production category (iron sights, very limited other modifications allowed) doesn't seem to hurt my cowboy shooting, nor vice versa, though I can't say one helps the other, either -- I still stink at both, and just have a good fun time doing both. Production category Steel Challenge is REALLY challenging, no pun intended; hitting a 10" diameter round plate at 18 yards or a 12" plate at 20 yards is no joke, at least for me. All of those guys and gals using red dot optics on their fancy accessorized race pistols in their competition belts and holsters are just gamers, in my view. Quote
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted January 14 Posted January 14 Saul. You are one of the exceptions as far as not watching westerns, liking cowboy things or cowboy firearms prior to shooting SASS. It's a given that a high percentage of SASS shooters had those interests before shooting SASS. And of course younger shooters are growing up with much less of that exposure. Quote
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