Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 9 minutes ago, Buffalo Creek Law Dog said: Canada is sending down water bombers, choppers, firefighters and equipment to help out. The water bomber that hit the drone is from here. And Australian assets are waiting for the call https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/8862812/australian-fire-crews-wait-for-american-assistance-call/ Both Australia and Canada have been very generous in the past in our times of need. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 (edited) 4 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said: The only "planned a little better" would have been stopping all construction half a century ago. They could taken all this into consideration a half a century ago. My point is they weren’t thinking ahead ! Edited January 10 by Rye Miles #13621 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) They just built a new development with 800 homes where a dairy used to be and most of the homes are right at 12feet apart from each other. They didn’t do anything to widen or improve the roads and the sewage is pumped to a processing plant and hauled out of town in tank trucks. Edited January 10 by Yul Lose 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 29 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: They could taken all this into consideration a half a century ago. My point is they weren’t thinking ahead ! Cities in the NE should have planned for the blizzards of the past few years. Cities in the Midwest should have known they would have those unprecedented floods in 2019. Japan should have planned for a Magnitude 11 earthquake. 20/20 hindsight. The fires of the past 15 years are orders of magnitude more destructive than half a century ago. More housing closer to more fuel that hasn't been cleared in over half a century. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, Subdeacon Joe said: Cities in the NE should have planned for the blizzards of the past few years. Cities in the Midwest should have known they would have those unprecedented floods in 2019. Japan should have planned for a Magnitude 11 earthquake. 20/20 hindsight. The fires of the past 15 years are orders of magnitude more destructive than half a century ago. More housing closer to more fuel that hasn't been cleared in over half a century. I get what you’re saying and I agree ,all those cites and states should have planned ahead! More housing closer to more fuel for fires, yes those all should have been cleared ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: I get what you’re saying and I agree ,all those cites and states should have planned ahead! More housing closer to more fuel for fires, yes those all should have been cleared ! My point was that you can't plan again every conceivable eventuality. Should the engineers planning a bridge design to withstand a Mag. 11 quake while 200 80,000# semis are on it, and the towers each being struck by B-52s with full fuel and ordnance loads? Could happen. Should Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Arkansas adopt Californians seismic standards because of the New Madrid Seismic Zone? After all, "The USGS estimates that there is a 7–10% chance of a magnitude 7.5–8.0 earthquake in the next 50 years, and a 28–46% chance of a magnitude 6.0–7.0" 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WOLFY Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) On 1/9/2025 at 12:38 PM, Rye Miles #13621 said: I've also read what you listed and also they were supposedly diverting the water to the ocean because of the smelt fish to protect them. Hmmm.....I don't know who to believe now! both are true… the smelt are waaay up in northern calif so the rivers emptying into the SF Bay are the waters they wanted to divert for So Cal reservoirs Edited January 11 by WOLFY 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantry Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 Once ALL of the facts are out blame should be placed on the correct people and some may deserve to be charged with a crime. But right now, what we are seeing is some politicians trying to toss this hot potato to the next politician, with the press happily trying to make things worse. Was what is happening a reasonable scenario to prepare for, or something more along the lines of a 50 or 100 year event. For example, is the city of Cleveland prepared to deal the with effects of a large meteorite plunging in Lake Erie a mile offshore? Probably not. Not likely either, but people and the press would still blame the politicians for not being prepared. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 So wildfires haven't been a problem in California for living memory? Robert Stack's mother built a fireproof house with a sprinkler system on the roof - everyone laughed at the idea and were angry when hers was the only house in the area that didn't burn. When you live in a wildfire ecology basic precautions are always in place! Meteors, otoh,... 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chantry Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 19 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said: So wildfires haven't been a problem in California for living memory? Robert Stack's mother built a fireproof house with a sprinkler system on the roof - everyone laughed at the idea and were angry when hers was the only house in the area that didn't burn. When you live in a wildfire ecology basic precautions are always in place! Meteors, otoh,... Sigh Of course not. Was THIS particular event likely or a 50 or 100 year event? Do you think Governor Abbot of Texas should have been blamed for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Abbott#February_2021_North_American_ice_storm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 13 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said: My point was that you can't plan again every conceivable eventuality. Should the engineers planning a bridge design to withstand a Mag. 11 quake while 200 80,000# semis are on it, and the towers each being struck by B-52s with full fuel and ordnance loads? Could happen. Should Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Arkansas adopt Californians seismic standards because of the New Madrid Seismic Zone? After all, "The USGS estimates that there is a 7–10% chance of a magnitude 7.5–8.0 earthquake in the next 50 years, and a 28–46% chance of a magnitude 6.0–7.0" Most major cities along the New Madrid fault adopted seismic building codes decades ago. A lot of bridges and overpasses have been retrofitted to help them survive a major earthquake. https://www.nehrp.gov/pdf/SeismicWavesMar08.pdf 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) If this doesn't make your blood boil. 😡 😡 😡 😡 LA Mayor Karen Bass rejects assistance from FDNY; Newsom accepts help from Mexico crews. The crews from Mexico walked across the border instead of driving across. https://www.instagram.com/emp.press/reel/DErIVuauwMk/ Edited January 11 by Sedalia Dave 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said: So wildfires haven't been a problem in California for living memory? Robert Stack's mother built a fireproof house with a sprinkler system on the roof - everyone laughed at the idea and were angry when hers was the only house in the area that didn't burn. When you live in a wildfire ecology basic precautions are always in place! Meteors, otoh,... Fires in and/or around LA, and other CA locations, have been occurring for years. Hell, Jim Morrison sang about them in LA Woman fifty-four years ago. There are preventative measures that can be taken for known hazards with a high probability rate of occurring. Meteors aren't high on the probability list. The Texas ice storm fiasco had it's beginnings in 1935 with the TX power companies forming an alliance so that they could remain independent from other, out of state, power utilities. What that meant was that they wouldn't have to share their power with other out of state utilities else if the need arose. Conversely, because of that, they couldn't get power from other out of state utilities if their systems failed. Although the ice storm was a major fiasco, the temperature rose, the ice/snow melted and life continued. They still had homes and their possessions. Many folks in the LA don't have ANYTHING now except for what they were able to wear on their back and/or pack quickly. There's a BIG difference between the LA fires of today and the TX ice storm or a few years ago. Edited January 11 by Cypress Sun 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 (edited) Oh Gimmmie a BREAK!! THE BLAME GAME is just so STUPID. After anything bad happens, folks immediately point their little stupid fingers and say IT'S HIS/HER/THEIR FAULT. I don't care what your attitude is, when Mother Nature is off her Meds, there is NO WINNING. After all, because there are Hurricanes, communities should not be allowed to exist on the Atlantic Seaboard, nor the gulf Coast, nor for that matter, the California coast. And while we're at it, move everything out of the Tornado Belt. Don't build your house under Airplanes. Trying to Place the Balme is a FOOLS ERRAND. GET OVER IT FORGOT TO ADD: I suppose all the flora should have been poisoned off the So Cal land and created Dust Bowl that wouldn't support animal life?? There is a real good reason the Native People called it the Valley of Smokes and it wasn't Air Pollution Edited January 11 by Colorado Coffinmaker Add another poke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said: FORGOT TO ADD: I suppose all the flora should have been poisoned off the So Cal land and created Dust Bowl that wouldn't support animal life?? There is a real good reason the Native People called it the Valley of Smokes and it wasn't Air Pollution I don’t entirely disagree with the other parts of your post, but here we disagree! NOBODY is advocating or proposing killing off all of the flora in that, or any area! But good stewardship includes cleaning out and removing the deadwood and dried out underbrush that has proliferated because of ridiculous and misguided environmental decisions forced on the public by a tiny minority that has been bowed down to in the courts and legislature! Add that to the greed and shortsightedness of unscrupulous developers and the politicians who have allowed them to run amock and you’ve created an environment that is doomed to disaster! Judicious removal and control of the dead tinder could have been instituted, allowing the greenery and fauna to flourish and, perhaps, even supplied the homeless with, if any were willing, employment,heat, and comfort if handled properly. Sensible layout of developments in that area, especially given the proximity to and the propensity for fire that was/is well documented, would have prevented much of the current crisis. As far as blaming anyone, there’s plenty of blame to go around, and at this point, blame is unimportant. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 11 Author Share Posted January 11 42 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: I don’t entirely disagree with the other parts of your post, but here we disagree! NOBODY is advocating or proposing killing off all of the flora in that, or any area! But good stewardship includes cleaning out and removing the deadwood and dried out underbrush that has proliferated because of ridiculous and misguided environmental decisions forced on the public by a tiny minority that has been bowed down to in the courts and legislature! Add that to the greed and shortsightedness of unscrupulous developers and the politicians who have allowed them to run amock and you’ve created an environment that is doomed to disaster! Judicious removal and control of the dead tinder could have been instituted, allowing the greenery and fauna to flourish and, perhaps, even supplied the homeless with, if any were willing, employment,heat, and comfort if handled properly. Sensible layout of developments in that area, especially given the proximity to and the propensity for fire that was/is well documented, would have prevented much of the current crisis. As far as blaming anyone, there’s plenty of blame to go around, and at this point, blame is unimportant. Blame is not entirely unimportant IF lessons are learned for next time ! Yea I know that’s dreaming 😴 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckshot Bear Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 23 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said: And Australian assets are waiting for the call https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/8862812/australian-fire-crews-wait-for-american-assistance-call/ Both Australia and Canada have been very generous in the past in our times of need. It's unusual that we're not already there? I wonder why the call hasn't come through? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 28 minutes ago, Buckshot Bear said: It's unusual that we're not already there? I wonder why the call hasn't come through? Very unusual. California and Australia seem to swap firefighters back and forth several times a year. I think that the Lady High Mayor of Los Angeles has yet to ask our esteemed governor to make the call. Hells bells, she declined the assistance of the New York Fire Department. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. James H. Callahan Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 27 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: Very unusual. California and Australia seem to swap firefighters back and forth several times a year. I think that the Lady High Mayor of Los Angeles has yet to ask our esteemed governor to make the call. Hells bells, she declined the assistance of the New York Fire Department. Not surprised FDNY has offered assistance. In the aftermath of Katrina my wife (an RN ) and I volunteered a few days in San Antonio at a big refugee center. We had supper one night (prepared by a Mexican Army field kitchen ) with some NY firefighters. The said how the world came to them on 9-11 and they were just there to help out however they could. JHC 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stump Water Posted January 11 Share Posted January 11 On 1/10/2025 at 11:36 AM, Sedalia Dave said: The real problem is the tree hugging eco terrorists have successfully prevented proper forestry management from taking place. Power companies cannot properly maintain their right of ways, controlled burns are not taking place, and fire breaks are non existent. That's the truth. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forty Rod SASS 3935 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 On 1/10/2025 at 2:28 PM, Rye Miles #13621 said: They could taken all this into consideration a half a century ago. My point is they weren’t thinking ahead ! AHEAD? Hell, when were they ever thinking? 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 12 Author Share Posted January 12 47 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said: AHEAD? Hell, when were they ever thinking? Never! 😡 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 I have been following events closely. The fires in Colorado Springs a while back destroyed over 1200 structures and wiped out neighborhoods. As a wildland firefighter in my ranger days I learned a lot about fire behavior, weather, etc. THIS situation seems to be an accumulation of conditions thta have led to an event that no city or state in the country could have either prevented or responded with enough force and assets to do any better. You simply cannot fight fire when winds are hitting 100 mph. Aircraft are grounded and embers can be transported for many miles. If they had all the water in Lake Tahoe available it would have made little difference. Resources sometimes are simply overwhelmed by nature.. When it’s all over, investigations will be conducted, people May be held accountable for some poor planning, like above ground power lines in fire prone areas and budget cuts. But the bottom line is disasters like this are not always someone’s fault. The American culture these days it to point fingers, and some need to be pointed. But I think it’s unrealistic to think that this could have been prevented or quickly stopped, given the environmental conditions that existed. Hopefully massive response from other states coupled with some favorable weather will help. But it’s going to continue to be a hell of a battle. And a very long term recovery. 😪 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 35 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said: I have been following events closely. The fires in Colorado Springs a while back destroyed over 1200 structures and wiped out neighborhoods. As a wildland firefighter in my ranger days I learned a lot about fire behavior, weather, etc. THIS situation seems to be an accumulation of conditions thta have led to an event that no city or state in the country could have either prevented or responded with enough force and assets to do any better. You simply cannot fight fire when winds are hitting 100 mph. Aircraft are grounded and embers can be transported for many miles. If they had all the water in Lake Tahoe available it would have made little difference. Resources sometimes are simply overwhelmed by nature.. When it’s all over, investigations will be conducted, people May be held accountable for some poor planning, like above ground power lines in fire prone areas and budget cuts. But the bottom line is disasters like this are not always someone’s fault. The American culture these days it to point fingers, and some need to be pointed. But I think it’s unrealistic to think that this could have been prevented or quickly stopped, given the environmental conditions that existed. Hopefully massive response from other states coupled with some favorable weather will help. But it’s going to continue to be a hell of a battle. And a very long term recovery. 😪 And the water systems from the tanks to the fire trucks were never designed to fight fires of this size and ferocity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 after following the news and learning more of alll of this im now inclined toward some blame here - not that it might have prevented but it might have reduced the impact i get that capacity might not meet every need but please , dont tell me stripping millions from the fire department budgets didnt have impart ---- im not exactly sure what california is diverting money to but stripping the defense's of your communities is not a good choice , im not trying to get political in this comment [ill reserve that for others] but i have always believed the governments first obligation was to protect its citizens and that seems to be lost in this current rush to give handouts to illegal's and fund programs for obscure ideas , that combined with poor natural resources practices seems to be leaving the citizens that provide the tax money vulnerable , say what you want im open to discuss but the local and state government has made california very unappealing to me , 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 Oh please! It wasn't budget cuts, that money was a budget addition the previous year for purchases that aren't needed annually. Those water storage tanks and that layout was the best idea they could come up with for that area and that terrain at the time it was built, any area would have been overwhelmed by these fires. Somebody from CA can correct me if I'm wrong on this but I don't think the smelt ever had anything to do with the Colorado River which is where LA gets their water from. Sure sounds like both sides are trying to grab an opportunity to blame whatever they don't like about the other side and that shouldn't be the priority right now. You shouldn't be so eager to believe everything politicians say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted Monday at 04:35 AM Share Posted Monday at 04:35 AM 9 hours ago, Chicken Rustler, SASS #26680 said: Oh please! It wasn't budget cuts, that money was a budget addition the previous year for purchases that aren't needed annually. Those water storage tanks and that layout was the best idea they could come up with for that area and that terrain at the time it was built, any area would have been overwhelmed by these fires. Somebody from CA can correct me if I'm wrong on this but I don't think the smelt ever had anything to do with the Colorado River which is where LA gets their water from. Sure sounds like both sides are trying to grab an opportunity to blame whatever they don't like about the other side and that shouldn't be the priority right now. You shouldn't be so eager to believe everything politicians say. Those of us who were around in the 70- 80's in California may remember the fight over the Peripheral Canal to divert water from N Cal to LA. LA still gets water from Owens Valley that they stripped bare of vegetation from Mono lake in the 30-40's. And then there is the Canal that runs South along the west side of the Central Valley pumping water over the mountains at the south end to... LA. So it doesn't all come from the Colorado River, which is going dry, as some think. Those 3 water tanks were designed so those areas could fight 3 or 4 simultaneous fires with no problem, to build a system to fight what is going on now would be prohibitively expensive to build. The smelt are in the Delta, between Sacramento and the bay, they need water flowing through the Delta from the Sacramento River and have nothing to do with the Colorado River 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozark Huckleberry Posted Monday at 06:59 PM Share Posted Monday at 06:59 PM On 1/11/2025 at 1:15 PM, Rye Miles #13621 said: Blame is not entirely unimportant IF lessons are learned for next time ! Yea I know that’s dreaming 😴 Found on another thread: While the tragedy is happening: 'It's terrible to talk politics. People are dying. Property is being destroyed. Thousands are now refugees.' After the tragedy is over: 'Now's not the time to talk politics. People are trying to get their lives back together. Recovery efforts are underway. We're throwing all the money at it we can get.' After the initial recovery efforts are done: 'There's no reason to talk politics. An investigation is underway to find out what happened and who's at fault. Now's the time to look to the future.' During the next campaign season: 'Investigation? What investigation? Mistakes were made and . . . oh LOOK! A squirrel! Let's run after it!' 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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