Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 4 hours ago, Cypress Sun said: I've read accounts that they don't have the water to fight the fires due to low pressure from reservoirs being prevented from being refilled by natural means. I've also read about the LAFD budget being cut by the 17 million that Pat referred to. Fire budget $863,000,000, homeless budget $1,300,000,000. I guess it's a good thing they allotted the 1.3 billion to the homeless...they're going to need it. I'm curious as to whether the no water for fighting the fires is true. I have no doubt the rest is true. That said, I feel for the people, rich and famous or poor and unknown, that have lost everything they own along with their most treasured possessions. I'm wondering - could any city or community's fire suppression system function if all the hydrants are tapped at the same time? Is it a shortage of water, or of pumping/delivery capacity? Was the system ever designed to handle this level of demand? Is it even possible? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 17 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said: I'm wondering - could any city or community's fire suppression system function if all the hydrants are tapped at the same time? Is it a shortage of water, or of pumping/delivery capacity? Was the system ever designed to handle this level of demand? Is it even possible? With all the wildfires out there it should have been designed to handle this. Poor planning I believe and a shortage of water as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Our news just claimed it was a pump issue due to power outages. Bringing in generators to get the pumps back on line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Jack Black Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Most pumping stations have backup generators on site . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 9 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: With all the wildfires out there it should have been designed to handle this. Poor planning I believe and a shortage of water as well. That was my initial thought - but then, I wondered if that was realistic. So I googled the question, and got this response: "A very small percentage, usually less than 1%, of a city's fire hydrants can be opened at once without significantly impacting water pressure and potentially causing disruptions to the water supply; the exact percentage depends on the city's water system design and capacity, but it's generally considered unwise to open more than a handful at the same time." A couple of related links: Fire Hydrants and Water Flow Those suckers pass a LOT of water! News Report on Water Supply "LADWP and city leaders faced criticism by some residents, who blamed planning and the city's infrastructure for failing to support firefighting efforts. Some also claimed on social media that officials had refused or failed to fill the tanks..." However: "...Los Angeles Fire Department Capt. Erik Scott said the LADWP proactively filled all available water storage tanks before the fires began. He said that 'extreme demand' caused the tanks to be refilled at a slower rate, which affected the supply to some hydrants..." "Janisse Quiñones, chief executive and chief engineer of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, said at a Wednesday press conference that all three 1-million-gallon water tanks in the area ran dry by 3 a.m., reducing water pressure for fire hydrants at higher elevations... We had a tremendous demand on our system in the Palisades. We pushed the system to the extreme," Quiñones said. "Four times the normal demand was seen for 15 hours straight, which lowered our water pressure." I don't know how many hydrants are in Pacific Palisades alone, but if it covers more than 22 square miles, there's gotta be a bunch of 'em. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 What I fear now is the backlash in regards to the water supply system. Somebody will sue the city/county/state and an update to the full system will be mandated. Taxes will be levied, other vital resources will be reduced to help pay for the update to the water system. The lowest bidder will get the job, take 5 times longer than originally stated, will over run the cost to the point that we could have used the highest bidder, and another fire will happen in the middle of the update just at the point when there will be NO water available to fight the firestorm. There isn't always somebody to blame for tragedies. Sometimes they just happen. Mother Nature is a bitch, pardon the expression, and she will not be mocked or controlled. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rip Snorter Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 Sorry thing is, a dozen years ago, California had great policies and information, particularly on subdivisions for best practices against wildfire at the rural urban interface. It was actually a go to source when I was working for the conservation district on fuel abatement. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 44 minutes ago, Crazy Gun Barney, SASS #2428 said: What I fear now is the backlash in regards to the water supply system. Somebody will sue the city/county/state and an update to the full system will be mandated. Taxes will be levied, other vital resources will be reduced to help pay for the update to the water system. The lowest bidder will get the job, take 5 times longer than originally stated, will over run the cost to the point that we could have used the highest bidder, and another fire will happen in the middle of the update just at the point when there will be NO water available to fight the firestorm. There isn't always somebody to blame for tragedies. Sometimes they just happen. Mother Nature is a bitch, pardon the expression, and she will not be mocked or controlled. And to add to the delays and cost overruns, one or more environmental group will file multiple lawsuits to prevent “ecological harm” to whatever place or places are chosen to make the needed improvements in infrastructure. Then the silly liberal courts will issue temporary, or perhaps permanent injunctions to prevent any progress until Berkley or Stanford, in conjunction with PITA, Greenpeace, Al Gore, and other pseudo environmental groups can research and report on some nebulous environmental issue!! Never mind the sure and certain claims of climate change!! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 57 minutes ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said: That was my initial thought - but then, I wondered if that was realistic. So I googled the question, and got this response: "A very small percentage, usually less than 1%, of a city's fire hydrants can be opened at once without significantly impacting water pressure and potentially causing disruptions to the water supply; the exact percentage depends on the city's water system design and capacity, but it's generally considered unwise to open more than a handful at the same time." A couple of related links: Fire Hydrants and Water Flow Those suckers pass a LOT of water! News Report on Water Supply "LADWP and city leaders faced criticism by some residents, who blamed planning and the city's infrastructure for failing to support firefighting efforts. Some also claimed on social media that officials had refused or failed to fill the tanks..." However: "...Los Angeles Fire Department Capt. Erik Scott said the LADWP proactively filled all available water storage tanks before the fires began. He said that 'extreme demand' caused the tanks to be refilled at a slower rate, which affected the supply to some hydrants..." "Janisse Quiñones, chief executive and chief engineer of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, said at a Wednesday press conference that all three 1-million-gallon water tanks in the area ran dry by 3 a.m., reducing water pressure for fire hydrants at higher elevations... We had a tremendous demand on our system in the Palisades. We pushed the system to the extreme," Quiñones said. "Four times the normal demand was seen for 15 hours straight, which lowered our water pressure." I don't know how many hydrants are in Pacific Palisades alone, but if it covers more than 22 square miles, there's gotta be a bunch of 'em. You’d think that they would have planned a little better and had some foresight . This wasn’t the first fire they’ve had. Granted this was a bad one with the winds and all but I still think better planning could have minimized the damage. Just MHO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 52 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: And to add to the delays and cost overruns, one or more environmental group will file multiple lawsuits to prevent “ecological harm” to whatever place or places are chosen to make the needed improvements in infrastructure. Then the silly liberal courts will issue temporary, or perhaps permanent injunctions to prevent any progress until Berkley or Stanford, in conjunction with PITA, Greenpeace, Al Gore, and other pseudo environmental groups can research and report on some nebulous environmental issue!! Never mind the sure and certain claims of climate change!! Sad but true Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 28 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: You’d think that they would have planned a little better and had some foresight . This wasn’t the first fire they’ve had. Granted this was a bad one with the winds and all but I still think better planning could have minimized the damage. Just MHO It was bad with the Santa Ana winds but this happens year after year after year. Sometimes it's in different parts of the state, sometime in the same place as now. The origins of the fires may differ, but the results are always the same. People get burned out of their homes and businesses...yet they keep re-electing the same people that are supposedly in charge of ensuring that it doesn't happen again...and again....and again. Better planning goes much further than making sure the fire hydrants have water to work. Cleaning out underbrush, establishing/maintaining firebreaks, keeping reservoirs filled and a myriad of other preventative measures have to be part of the planning and above all, implemented. 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 10 dead now prayers up 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 9000 buildings gone 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Morons with drones ground tankers https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/canadian-super-scooper-plane-grounded-after-hitting-civilian-drone-over-los-angeles-wildfires-1.7171040 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-sopfeu-plane-grounded-1.7427777 A Quebec water bomber fighting the Palisades Fire in Los Angeles was grounded on Thursday after it collided with a drone flying in restricted airspace, officials said. The plane, known as Quebec 1, "sustained wing damage and remains grounded and out of service" following the incident, which occurred at 1 p.m. local time, the L.A. County Fire Department said in a statement. The fire department released photos of the plane, including one showing a hole in its wing. It said the plane was struck by "a civilian drone" and remains "out of service." If caught the idjits should be part of the next drop. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 7 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: Morons with drones ground tankers https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/canadian-super-scooper-plane-grounded-after-hitting-civilian-drone-over-los-angeles-wildfires-1.7171040 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-sopfeu-plane-grounded-1.7427777 A Quebec water bomber fighting the Palisades Fire in Los Angeles was grounded on Thursday after it collided with a drone flying in restricted airspace, officials said. The plane, known as Quebec 1, "sustained wing damage and remains grounded and out of service" following the incident, which occurred at 1 p.m. local time, the L.A. County Fire Department said in a statement. The fire department released photos of the plane, including one showing a hole in its wing. It said the plane was struck by "a civilian drone" and remains "out of service." If caught the idjits should be part of the next drop. There is not an angry button to hit… 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 5 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said: There is not an angry button to hit… There's this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Just now, Rye Miles #13621 said: There's this one! Yes, sir! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas Joker Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Isn't that what 100 mile an hour tape is for? 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calamity Kris Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) I hope the events this image indicates didn't come to fruition. This the camera for the Mt. Wilson observatory in CA, outside of Pasadena. The picture was taken at 3:00 am yesterday. Edited January 10 by Calamity Kris 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 The real problem is the tree hugging eco terrorists have successfully prevented proper forestry management from taking place. Power companies cannot properly maintain their right of ways, controlled burns are not taking place, and fire breaks are non existent. 6 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: The real problem is the tree hugging eco terrorists have successfully prevented proper forestry management from taking place. Power companies cannot properly maintain their right of ways, controlled burns are not taking place, and fire breaks are non existent. It's also happening with our water ways. And now they blame climate change on all the flooding rather than cleaning the debris out of the rivers and from under the bridges. We've got one bridge in town that causes floods every heavy rain and the state won't let us get all the trees out from under the bridge unless it can be done without entering the river. Apparently it upsets some sort of water bug! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) The creator tasked mankind with stewardship of the land!! We are NOT supposed be victims of it!! Those environmental idiots should be the first ones given shovels and axes and sent to the front of the line fighting these fires and the last ones allowed to leave those areas when and where these disasters occur!! Edited January 10 by Blackwater 53393 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 17 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: You’d think that they would have planned a little better and had some foresight . This wasn’t the first fire they’ve had. Granted this was a bad one with the winds and all but I still think better planning could have minimized the damage. Just MHO The only "planned a little better" would have been stopping all construction half a century ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 50 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: The real problem is the tree hugging eco terrorists have successfully prevented proper forestry management from taking place. Power companies cannot properly maintain their right of ways, controlled burns are not taking place, and fire breaks are non existent. Any way to hold them to account? Even if it was only public ridicule and blame for the losses? Or like here, (until recently) would the media just ignore it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 50 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: The only "planned a little better" would have been stopping all construction half a century ago. Planning that construction better and requiring more space between buildings would have helped. Refusing to kowtow to environmental charlatans who pretend to care about climate and nature for their own profit at the expense of public health and safety should have been the first step in planning!! Better planning by REQUIRING cleanup of power right of ways, mantaining fire breaks, building reliable flood and water control facilities and infrastructure, and mandating responsible forestry would have prevented much, if not all of the current disaster! The saddest part of all of this is that many other states and municipalities have neglected to properly plan for these possibilities as well and it’s only a matter of time before the same sort of catastrophe happens elsewhere unless we change our way of thinking. 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 13 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: It's also happening with our water ways. And now they blame climate change on all the flooding rather than cleaning the debris out of the rivers and from under the bridges. We've got one bridge in town that causes floods every heavy rain and the state won't let us get all the trees out from under the bridge unless it can be done without entering the river. Apparently it upsets some sort of water bug! Everyone wants their "scenic" view and protest bitterly when proper, responsible abatement is implemented....until their homes, businesses and neighborhoods burn to the ground or are washed away by floods. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 27 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: Better planning by REQUIRING cleanup of power right of ways, mantaining fire breaks, building reliable flood and water control facilities and infrastructure, and mandating responsible forestry would have prevented much, if not all of the current disaster! Our state DOES require cleanup of the power transmission lines and rights of ways. Unfortunately the self proclaimed environmentalists hinder it with lawsuits and protests. Even while the 2020 Glass Incident Fires were destroying homes and businesses in Sonoma and Napa Counties idiots in, I think, Placer County were climbing trees to prevent PG&E from clearing the lines there. At the same time people and members of our Legislature were demanding PG&E underground their transmission lines, "environmentalists" were doing all they legally could do prevent it. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: Our state DOES require cleanup of the power transmission lines and rights of ways. Unfortunately the self proclaimed environmentalists hinder it with lawsuits and protests. Even while the 2020 Glass Incident Fires were destroying homes and businesses in Sonoma and Napa Counties idiots in, I think, Placer County were climbing trees to prevent PG&E from clearing the lines there. At the same time people and members of our Legislature were demanding PG&E underground their transmission lines, "environmentalists" were doing all they legally could do prevent it. Then your state only “requires” it on paper! Until the government starts dragging their butts out of the trees, fining and jailing them, and declaring eminent domain where necessary to get needed improvements made, they’re actually defacto supporting these imbeciles and their charlatan handlers!! Edited January 10 by Blackwater 53393 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: Then your state only “requires” it on paper! When the government starts dragging their butts out of the trees, fining and jailing them, and declaring eminent domain where necessary, to get needed improvements made, they’re actually defacto supporting these imbeciles and their charlatan handlers!! Emotionally I agree with you, but, as I've said before, emotion makes for bad law. How much unopposed power do we want to vest in the State to put down protest we don't like? Do we place a prohibition on lawsuits? Remember how outraged we were when we saw pro-2nd Amendment demonstrations quashed while leftist riots were allowed. Now, I can see legal protection for persons, both individuals and corporations, who are required to clear trees and brush, who after warnings and a reasonable time for the protesters to leave go ahead with trimming and felling. If the protesters are injured it's their own fault. Edited January 10 by Subdeacon Joe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 "He got himself in the wrong place if I have to carry him out of a fire." That Deputy Chief is a disgrace to the profession. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEoG64IMhoy/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 37 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: Emotionally I agree with you, but, as I've said before, emotion makes for bad law. How much unopposed power do we want to vest in the State to put down protest we don't like? Do we place a prohibition on lawsuits? Remember how outraged we were when we saw pro-2nd Amendment demonstrations quashed while leftist riots were allowed. Now, I can see legal protection for persons, both individuals and corporations, who are required to clear trees and brush, who after warnings and a reasonable time for the protesters to leave go ahead with trimming and felling. If the protesters are injured it's their own fault. Nothing emotional in what I’m calling for, just intervention and then due process!! Something we seemingly can’t control is putting sensible people in positions of power, legislatively and judicially, to make the hard decisions that are necessary to prevent what’s happening in California right now. I love a natural setting as much as most. More than many. As I said earlier, we’re created to be stewards of this earth. Good stewardship includes preventing disasters when we can and avoiding settling in places where we can’t possibly mitigate the danger or the damage. My dad used to say that the Good Lord protects drunks and idiots, but even he can only do so much!! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: Nothing emotional in what I’m calling for, just intervention and then due process!! Something we seemingly can’t control is putting sensible people in positions of power, legislatively and judicially, to make the hard decisions that are necessary to prevent what’s happening in California right now. I love a natural setting as much as most. More than many. As I said earlier, we’re created to be stewards of this earth. Good stewardship includes preventing disasters when we can and avoiding settling in places where we can’t possibly mitigate the danger or the damage. My dad used to say that the Good Lord protects drunks and idiots, but even he can only do so much!! You kind of left the "due process" part out of the comments I responded to. Other than that I agree with everything in this post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subdeacon Joe Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 I hadn't thought of it this way. Maybe "climate change" really is responsible. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEp1V3PuSzU/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackwater 53393 Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 3 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said: I hadn't thought of it this way. Maybe "climate change" really is responsible. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DEp1V3PuSzU/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== THAT’S WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT!! Refusing to take care of the land is ABSOLUTELY man made climate change!!! 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 2 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: THAT’S WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT!! Refusing to take care of the land is ABSOLUTELY man made climate change!!! +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Creek Law Dog Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Canada is sending down water bombers, choppers, firefighters and equipment to help out. The water bomber that hit the drone is from here. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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