Battleship Armour and Such

[Subdeacon Joe]

Found on FB.  The difference in the face of the gunport opening is due to it being work in progress.  Ridges are from the drilling to cut the opening. 

 

 

"An excellent example of how thick battleship armor was! 

The turret faceplate of a United States Navy battleship being prepared at the Bethlehem Steel Plant in 1941. Compare the thickness of the faceplate with the worker standing next to the far corner of it. 

Sadly, the photo does not list the battleship to which this turret faceplate belonged. Since the photo is listed as being 1941, this turret faceplate is likely being produced for one of the South Dakota class battleships (it might possibly be intended for one of the first two Iowa class battleships, but the South Dakota class seems more likely).

If this was for the South Dakota class battleships, the turret faceplate would be 406mm (16") of Class B armor. This armor would then be attached to a STS (Special Treatment Steel) backing plate of 64mm (2.5") for a total thickness of 470mm (18.5"). 

The turret faceplate of the Iowa class was slightly thicker. The armor was 432mm (17") of Class B armor plate. This would be attached to a 64mm (2.5") STS backing plate for a total thickness of 495mm (19.5").

The photo is from the LIFE Magazine Archive,  the photographer is Dmitri Kessel."

 

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Subdeacon Joe

[Subdeacon Joe]

"American battleship USS Indiana (BB-58) arrives home after the war. Taken from the Golden Gate Bridge, San Francisco Bay, on 29 September 1945."

 

The approach 

 

Passed under the Bridge 

 

[Pat Riot]

A huge difference in today’s ships. Fiberglass gun mount enclosures and aluminum super structures. 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

So, after ww2, the only BBs that were used were the Iowas. All others were eventually retired?

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

So, after ww2, the only BBs that were used were the Iowas. All others were eventually retired?

 

With the exception of the USS Missouri, All of the battle ships that served during WWII were decommissioned shortly after the end of WWII.

 

The three remaining Iowa class battleships were recommissioned to support the Korean war. All 4 were decommissioned within a few years of the war's end. 

 

The New Jersey was recommissioned for a a little over a year in support of the Vietnam War.

 

All 4 were once again recommissioned in the 1980s. Only to be mothballed in the early 90s.

 

All 4 are now museum ships.

 

Construction of 2 additional Iowa class battleships was started during WWII. (USS Kentucky and the USS Illinois) However, they were never completed. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battleships_of_the_United_States_Navy

Edited December 30, 2024 by Sedalia Dave

[Nickle]

3 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

With the exception of the USS Missouri, All of the battle ships that served during WWII were decommissioned shortly after the end of WWII.

 

The three remaining Iowa class battleships were recommissioned to support the Korean war. All 4 were decommissioned within a few years of the war's end. 

 

The New Jersey was recommissioned for a a little over a year in support of the Vietnam War.

 

All 4 were once again recommissioned in the 1980s. Only to be mothballed in the early 90s.

 

All 4 are now museum ships.

 

Construction of 2 additional Iowa class battleships was started during WWII. (USS Kentucky and the USS Illinois) However, they were never completed. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battleships_of_the_United_States_Navy

I forget which one. I  remembering  Missouri but it might have been one of the other Iowa class ships  but they used it in gulf war1 and also I think they shelled Lebanon shortly before that.

If you Google it there is a utube channel about the New Jersey.  Anyone who likes guns will be fascinated with these incredible gun boats. It's amazing how well thought out and designed they were. If I had the bucks and was going on a vacation somewhere I would go visit  the New Jersey.  Haha if it was safe to get to it because I think it's located in Camden New Jersey. 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Would have been Montana class

 

 

[Chantry]

3 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

So, after ww2, the only BBs that were used were the Iowas. All others were eventually retired?

Aside from the 4 Iowa class battleships and the USS Mississippi (used as a gunnery training vessel until 1956) all US battleships were decommissioned by the end of 1947 or used as targets and sunk. 

 

On edit: The two North Carolina class and 4 South Dakota class battleships were too slow to keep up with the Essex class carriers that made up the post war carrier fleet.  The battleships were also manpower intensive, costly to run and the aviators didn't want the four Iowa's around because it interfered with getting them getting funding for more planes and aircraft carriers.

Edited December 30, 2024 by Chantry

[Nickle]

4 hours ago, Chantry said:

 and the aviators didn't want the four Iowa's around because it interfered with getting them getting funding for more planes and aircraft carriers.

I've heard them referred to as the "gun club " battleships  and the" flying club" competing for funding. 

I'm no sailor but from watching TV shows about these battleships and carriers , it always struck me how huge these ships are but yet how crammed for space everything is especially the sleeping arrangements. 

Another cool thing about the battleships is the on board machine shop. Fully equipped!  No getting plastic parts from China.  Ha if they needed something the made it!

Also the thinking in the way everything was built to last and if it didn't ,they had most things built in a way so that if something got destroyed they had plan b or backup system so the ship could keep fighting.  This was 1930s technology.  They were smarter back then than what people realize.  Those battleships were and still are amazing.  Real Gearheads!

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

When the USS Missouri was retired after the Gulf War, it was costing $1M per day to operate. The other more important issue was the lack of skilled personnel and facilities to maintain the aging machinery. By then, those folks were elderly or dead. After the Iowa turret explosion in the 80’s, the physical capability to repair it didn’t exist anymore, even if they had the personnel. 
 

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[Subdeacon Joe]

35 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

After the Iowa turret explosion in the 80’s, the physical capability to repair it didn’t exist anymore, even if they had the personnel. 

 

Which is a sad comment on the state of American manufacturing. 

[Pat Riot]

Planes, missiles and lighter craft have made battleships unnecessary. 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

10 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

Which is a sad comment on the state of American manufacturing. 

Keeping the tooling around and maintained for 40plus years with nothing to do except wait just in case it is needed would have been an enormous expense.

[Nickle]

With the cost of missiles being what they are. A battleship if you think of it as mobile artillery  platform still might have a place.  Missiles are out of this world expensive and  takes time to build  them. Those 16 inch guns could pound away for years in a long drawn out war.

The Iowa  gun explosion I think officially was blamed on personal but unofficially if I remember right the ship was  brought  back to service to meet a political deadline and the crew and ship just wasn't ready. 

The last time they were brought into service they had to get long retired veterans to come back and teach the new sailors.

Where in today's world in America could  18 inch thick steel plate be made?

I'm not sure about the other ships but the New Jersey could definitely be brought back into service.  It's a huge platform that can keep up  to speed of carrier groups.  Lots of room on it for missiles and of course you have those beautiful 16 inch guns.

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Keeping the tooling around and maintained for 40plus years with nothing to do except wait just in case it is needed would have been an enormous expense.

 

It's not the tooling that's the issue,  it's the actual capability to make such things now.

[Chantry]

On 12/30/2024 at 12:37 PM, Nickle said:

I forget which one. I  remembering  Missouri but it might have been one of the other Iowa class ships  but they used it in gulf war1 and also I think they shelled Lebanon shortly before that.

If you Google it there is a utube channel about the New Jersey.  Anyone who likes guns will be fascinated with these incredible gun boats. It's amazing how well thought out and designed they were. If I had the bucks and was going on a vacation somewhere I would go visit  the New Jersey.  Haha if it was safe to get to it because I think it's located in Camden New Jersey. 

 

The USS New Jersey shelled Lebanon and it was the USS Missouri and USS Wisconsin that saw service during Desert Storm.

 

The USS New Jersey is located in Camden, NJ, but it's in a commercial district near the Delaware River.  Right across the river is the USS Olympia, an armored cruiser from the Spanish American War and the USS Becuna, submarine from WWII.  The USS Olympia is an interesting ship to visit as well, some of it reminds me of the USS Constitution and some of of it reminds me of a WWI or WWI warship.

 

I've been on both and would have no problem going to visit the USS New Jersey again. All three ships could be seen in a single day.

[Chantry]

20 hours ago, Nickle said:

I'm no sailor but from watching TV shows about these battleships and carriers , it always struck me how huge these ships are but yet how crammed for space everything is especially the sleeping arrangements. 

During WWII they generally had another 700-800 men on board, mostly to man the 20 mm and 40 mm antiaircraft guns.  The sleeping arrangements were much better than other smaller US warships which were much better than their British counterparts.

4 hours ago, Nickle said:

The Iowa  gun explosion I think officially was blamed on personal but unofficially if I remember right the ship was  brought  back to service to meet a political deadline and the crew and ship just wasn't ready. 

 

The last time they were brought into service they had to get long retired veterans to come back and teach the new sailors.

 

The cause was eventually attributed to the deterioration of the gun powder which caused ether, which is highly flammable.  Best guess is there was ether present, which encountered a spark, setting off the ether, which set off the black powder priming charge, which set off the main powder charge.

 

I know that some USS New Jersey veterans who served in Vietnam were called up when the ship was re-commissioned in 1982.  From what I remember it was mostly for the main turrets and and the engine plant.

[J.D. Daily]

9 hours ago, Nickle said:

With the cost of missiles being what they are. A battleship if you think of it as mobile artillery  platform still might have a place.  Missiles are out of this world expensive and  takes time to build  them. Those 16 inch guns could pound away for years in a long drawn out war.

The Iowa  gun explosion I think officially was blamed on personal but unofficially if I remember right the ship was  brought  back to service to meet a political deadline and the crew and ship just wasn't ready. 

The last time they were brought into service they had to get long retired veterans to come back and teach the new sailors.

Where in today's world in America could  18 inch thick steel plate be made?

I'm not sure about the other ships but the New Jersey could definitely be brought back into service.  It's a huge platform that can keep up  to speed of carrier groups.  Lots of room on it for missiles and of course you have those beautiful 16 inch guns.

 Steel Armor is old school.  Composite and reactive armor is lighter and more effective.  Besides missiles are much more accurate; so, it only takes one to take out a point target.  Where it takes some serendipity for a shell from a 16" rifle to hit a small target at 24 miles.   Indirect fire guns (howitzers) are much more accurate due the high elevation angle of the barrel means the size of the expected zone of impact is smaller than a rifle's barrel low elevation angle.

P.S.  The Iowa class battleships life were extended when Ronald Reagan converted them into cruise missile platforms; however, cost inefficient  they were.

[Nickle]

23 hours ago, J.D. Daily said:

 Steel Armor is old school.  Composite and reactive armor is lighter and more effective.  Besides missiles are much more accurate; so, it only takes one to take out a point target.  Where it takes some serendipity for a shell from a 16" rifle to hit a small target at 24 miles.   Indirect fire guns (howitzers) are much more accurate due the high elevation angle of the barrel means the size of the expected zone of impact is smaller than a rifle's barrel low elevation angle.

P.S.  The Iowa class battleships life were extended when Ronald Reagan converted them into cruise missile platforms; however, cost inefficient  they were.

Years ago when I was trucking I used to haul missile components from Canada into USA.  Taking them across the border the costs of the components was all in my paperwork.  OMG a couple  of small crates in back of my truck used to be worth 15 to 25 million  dollars!  This wasn't for the missile.  Just some components that went into the missile and this was year ago. The price of these cruise missiles must be out of this world. 

Look at Ukraine war. Going on now for years. I suspect our primer,powder shortage has something  to do with this.  I have to wonder about everyone's reserves of missiles and smart bombs  plus the cost of all of this.

You would think both sides over there are wishing they had a Iowa class sitting offshore that could blast away with those 16 inch naval guns?

Battleships are just cool as can be and those Iowa's were the pinnacle.  They are just to cool to let them die.

[J.D. Daily]

4 minutes ago, Nickle said:

Years ago when I was trucking I used to haul missile components from Canada into USA.  Taking them across the border the costs of the components was all in my paperwork.  OMG a couple  of small crates in back of my truck used to be worth 15 to 25 million  dollars!  This wasn't for the missile.  Just some components that went into the missile and this was year ago. The price of these cruise missiles must be out of this world. 

Look at Ukraine war. Going on now for years. I suspect our primer,powder shortage has something  to do with this.  I have to wonder about everyone's reserves of missiles and smart bombs  plus the cost of all of this.

You would think both sides over there are wishing they had a Iowa class sitting offshore that could blast away with those 16 inch naval guns?

Battleships are just cool as can be and those Iowa's were the pinnacle.  They are just to cool to let them die.

If an Iowa class battle ship's  16" guns were to be used in the Black Sea to bombard Crimean naval & air assets it wouldn't last 5 minutes when inside Russian territorial waters or fired on Russian assets.  The Ukrainian's have forced all the Russian surface vessels into ports or the Black Sea that is outside the conflict zone.  The exception is submarines.  Ukraine developed & built sea surface drones have been kicking Russia's ass.

[Nickle]

2 hours ago, J.D. Daily said:

If an Iowa class battle ship's  16" guns were to be used in the Black Sea to bombard Crimean naval & air assets it wouldn't last 5 minutes when inside Russian territorial waters or fired on Russian assets.  The Ukrainian's have forced all the Russian surface vessels into ports or the Black Sea that is outside the conflict zone.  The exception is submarines.  Ukraine developed & built sea surface drones have been kicking Russia's ass.

There is such a thing as smart artillery basically its a guided artillery round. More range than artillery but cheaper than cruise missiles. I'm going from memory and I'm not a  military guy so forgive if I'm remembering wrong. 

Could this new technology  make the New Jersey and her big guns viable again? 

Also just because of the size of the New Jersey ,look at all the room to mount missiles on her.

 

[Nickle]

On 1/1/2025 at 7:06 PM, J.D. Daily said:

If an Iowa class battle ship's  16" guns were to be used in the Black Sea to bombard Crimean naval & air assets it wouldn't last 5 minutes when inside Russian territorial waters or fired on Russian assets.  The Ukrainian's have forced all the Russian surface vessels into ports or the Black Sea that is outside the conflict zone.  The exception is submarines.  Ukraine developed & built sea surface drones have been kicking Russia's ass.

So I looked  into this. Those Kirov battle cruisers like they tried to use in Ukraine war. The kirov looks sort of like a battleship but they are nothing like a battleship. They are venerable because  they have no armor  except  splinter protection.  Basically 3" which is nothing.  Kirov can't take a hit. It's like comparing a new car to a Abrams. 

During the cold War the  Russians didn't believe their Kirov missile cruisers had enough punch to sink a Iowa. Surely a drone couldn't do it?

Also a Iowa would be in a carrier fleet. You wouldn't send a carrier  alone into battle,same with a Iowa. 

Ten years ago the marines were still buying 1911 colts. They work just as good now  as they did before.