Black Powder shotshells.

[Dapper Dave]

I find this VERY timely information, since I will be trying my luck with loading brass MagTech hulls with the Holy Black this coming weekend, when everything gets here, using over powder cards, fiber wads and over shot cards from Track of the Wolf, and a Lee adjustable dipper to load powder and shot. Shot is new #8. I have plenty of 3F, and lack only the ball mill to start making my own again. That, being non-pucked_, (no 20 ton press yet), is about 65% of commercial strength. Looking to do a square load with the commercial, 1 oz shot to 1 oz powder - that work OK in your experience?

I have always cleaned black powder with hot soapy water, regular old dish soap never had any issues, but always open to try new things that might work better. I think it might be a lot easier with the shotgun as there are much FEWER moving parts than in a pistol!

Question - does anyone here shoot black in the shotgun in all categories, or can black powder loads only be used in specific categories? 

[Sedalia Dave]

9 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Question - does anyone here shoot black in the shotgun in all categories, or can black powder loads only be used in specific categories? 

 

Black powder loads may be shot in EVERY SASS category. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

7 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Question - does anyone here shoot black in the shotgun in all categories, or can black powder loads only be used in specific categories? 

Black powder is legal in all categories.  However, it is not advantageous pricewise or timewise.  Just buy some commercial smokeless shotgun shells if you want to compete in a smokeless category.  The cloud of dense white smoke produced by black powder really hinders target acquisition.  When shooting black powder shotgun shells, I often guess where the next target is and shoot rather wait until I can see it.

[Dapper Dave]

Good to know, thank you

[Sedalia Dave]

11 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Looking to do a square load with the commercial, 1 oz shot to 1 oz powder - that work OK in your experience?

 

 

I hope what you were trying to say is that you would be using the same volume of BP as you are using of shot.

 

A square load for 1 ounce of shot is 70 grains of powder. While this should work you can easily get by with a lot less powder.  I would start at 50 grains of BP under a 1 oz load of shot.  Still plenty of smoke and flames and your powder will go a lot further.  In reality you could get by with about 40 grains of BP and and still not have any issues knocking down any shotgun target you will come across. 

 

What ever load you choose be sure to pattern it to make sure the pattern doesn't look like a doughnut.  If it does reduce the powder charge 5 to 10 grains and recheck. 

[Erasmus]

I use an adjustable shot dipper, adjusted to it's smallest volume (7/8 oz of shot) to measure both my shot and 2F or 3F powder for black powder shotgun shells loaded in Magtech brass. It runs about 800 fps with Goex. 

 

As for using black in other categories, I don't usually have smokeless shotgun shells with me, so if I'm playing in a side match or something I'm shootings black. 

Edited January 13 by Erasmus

[Dapper Dave]

Yes, that was what I had seen/read, was a "square load" was equal powder to shot. However, you're right - why waste it when it's not going very far. Saving powder would be a great bonus.  I will definitely be patterning this at the local range - I am finding that shooting this little boomer is a lot of fun all by itself.  Hard to believe I haven't owned a shotgun for many years. 

[Sedalia Dave]

6 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

Yes, that was what I had seen/read, was a "square load" was equal powder to shot. However, you're right - why waste it when it's not going very far. Saving powder would be a great bonus.  I will definitely be patterning this at the local range - I am finding that shooting this little boomer is a lot of fun all by itself.  Hard to believe I haven't owned a shotgun for many years. 

 

For big matches I shoot real BP in all my firearms. All my ammo was old Black Dawg Cartridge Co ammo I got from a shooter that had to hang up his guns.

 

The shotshells were loaded in AA hulls, 4 cc (60 grains) of real BP, WAA12SL Wad, and 1 ounce of shot.  First time I shot them inside an enclosed prop at a match Everyone left except the TO.  Building as about 8' X 12' with ab 8 foot ceiling. Two windows facing down range and a single door to enter.  Stage called for split shotgun (2 from each window) 

Shotgun was last so to make it easier to move from window to window I had the barrel of my 87 just barely out the window. when i started the stage the TO, score keeper and 2 spotters were inside the stage. when I turned to leave only the TO was left in there with me.

As I exited the building the score keeper said "them's LOUD"  

 

Took two stages for the grin to leave my face. 🙂

 

Below is a picture a professional photographer took of me shooting the corral stage at Trailhead. I was standing in full sun.

 

 

 

I ran out of them last year, So now I load my shotshells with 3.33 cc of BP ( 50 grains). Makes for a better crimp and saves a little on powder. They are just as loud and make the same amount of smoke and flames.

Edited January 13 by Sedalia Dave

[Dapper Dave]

All of the items required have been delivered, first testers will be assembled this weekend.

Edit to add, I have Olde Eynsford 3F and my own home made which is much weaker. So, I will start with 50 gr of OE 3F with the 7/8ox shot, and 40 gr OE with the same shot. Shot size is #8 high antimony. 

Edited January 16 by Dapper Dave

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Dapper Dave said:

All of the items required have been delivered, first testers will be assembled this weekend.

Edit to add, I have Olde Eynsford 3F and my own home made which is much weaker. So, I will start with 50 gr of OE 3F with the 7/8ox shot, and 40 gr OE with the same shot. Shot size is #8 high antimony. 

40 grains of OE is more than enough (I use 38 grains equivalent under 1 oz #8 shot). There’s plenty of smoke, flame and boom with that. More than that is a waste of good powder. 

[Dapper Dave]

I will certainly keep that in mind, will probably start thereabouts. 

[Eyesa Horg]

5 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

I will certainly keep that in mind, will probably start thereabouts. 

Especially with 3F. 40 of 2F works fine and more flame!

[Dapper Dave]

Like this...

40 and 38 gr 3F for testing, 1 OZ #8, two fiber wads, all wads/cards 11 ga. I discovered the 11ga over shot card is not quite tight enough. Hope the glue holds. I will try an 82gr 3F and 1- 1/8oz shot load for rabbit - my gunsmith buddy wants me to take this hunting with him. 

 

["Big Boston"]

59 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

Like this...

40 and 38 gr 3F for testing, 1 OZ #8, two fiber wads, all wads/cards 11 ga. I discovered the 11ga over shot card is not quite tight enough. Hope the glue holds. I will try an 82gr 3F and 1- 1/8oz shot load for rabbit - my gunsmith buddy wants me to take this hunting with him. 

 

 

I had a box of the brass magtech shotshells, and I did a bit of experimenting. That was before I got into Cowboy, it was more a prepping experiment with my son. My results were not as expected, but I did learn that if I were to do it again, I'd never use hot glue, yes it holds but too well. And it is a butch to remove. If I were to do it again I think I'd just drip beeswax/olive oil on the top, just like the cap and ball guys do with crisco. 

 

BB

[Erasmus]

In regards to the overshot card and glue:

 

Yes, you should use a 10 gauge overshot card. 

 

Also, because I put a dab of lube under my cushion wad I've found that it may occasionally wipe some lube on the side of the shell. For a while I was using a cotton swab and some alcohol to quickly wipe the interior of the shell before gluing my overshot card. These days I'm much better about how I lube the bottom of the cushion wad and no longer need to wipe the interior of the shell. 

 

lastly, I prefer Elmer's School Glue or plain old Elmer's. Elmer's School Glue is water soluble and easily comes off when I'm wet tumbling my brass. Plain Elmer's isn't bad. I used Titebond 3 once because it's what I had on hand before a match and it's a pain to get off. I use enough Elmer's to cover the entire top of the overshot card ensuring it gets all the way to the edge of the card and onto the shell. In practice all I do is rotate the shell between my fingers to ensure total coverage. 

 

It sounds like a lot but I've found doing them in batches of 25 is easy enough and doesn't take a ton of time. Prime them, charge them, wad them, shot charge them, overshot, glue. Wait a couple of days and box them. 

[Dapper Dave]

 I am planning on shooting these testers tomorrow morning. I will be ordering some 10 ga overshot cards next payday. 

Do you think some SPG lube might be enough to hold the overshot card on? I've heard of beeswax/olive oil, but usually for regular bullet lube, which is why I bought SPG Tropical to lube my paper cartridges as well.
Edit to add I did have another guy swear by "water glass" - never used it, ever, no idea. 

Edited January 18 by Dapper Dave

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

water glass is sodium silicate, used in farming and such.  I bought a giant jar of it many moons ago but after a decade it turned to rock, so I switched to Elmer's wood glue with no problemo.  The waterglass was nice to use because it dried quickly, but if you don't shoot some shells for months, it can get brittle and fail.  Only happened once, then I started applying another coat before shooting older shells.  I use the 11ga overshot cards and while they are loose in my Winchester and Remington brass (same size as Magtech), once glued in place it works fine.  I use 55-60gr of anything from Renactor to 3Fg (when I had lots of it), currently using 1Fg Scheutzen, then 11ga .125" Nitro card, then red winchester (claybuster now) wad, 1 oz of 7 1/2, overshot card, Elmers. 

 

Main thing is don't forget to label your shells. 

 

[Dapper Dave]

I have been talking to my gunsmith buddy and a few others, and I had a question - since the load is short in the brass, why not use the nitro over powder card for the over shot card, ( The bag has a lot in there, and they are dirt cheap), and since it is much tighter fitting, how about using SPG tropical lube as a sealer/glue? Big Boston suggests beeswax/olive oil, and that is nothing but old school black powder lube. Seems it might be worth at least a one or two rounds to try. 

In any case, the glue gun was also a suggestion - I tried glueing brass to card stock originally. Does it stick to the inside of the brass or down the bore to make it a pain? One thing I was surprised with is just how fast that glue stick gets used up. 8 loads was two full sticks of glue. 

Edited January 18 by Dapper Dave
spelling

[Dapper Dave]

Ok, so this was the result. 40 grains of 3f. Recoil was nonexistent, smoke was very underwhelming. This load will knock over steel plates?

[Dapper Dave]

So, I tried some of the small game loads 80 grains of 3F. I think that will do for bunny. All top targets right barrel with IC, all lower targets left barrel with Modified.

Da Boy, the most recoil averse person I ever met, fired some of the 38 grain loads. He loved them, of course.

 

[Dapper Dave]

Cleaning was interesting - the SPG soaked fiber wads left behind some odd residue, looks like rats have been nesting in there. Brass is after rapid swich in hot water with dish soap, no sticky residue found, will be tumbled later tonight. 

 

 

 

Takeaways is everything YOU gents already know, but I just hadda find out.. Or as that fine man once said, I peed on the electric fence myself. This time I didn't get zapped. I discovered that 12 rounds would load and shuck just fine, but 13 and 14 were too stuck to shuck. So I will be doing like everyone else and bringing rods with mops to clean out between stages. No big deal. I will also try some 45 and 50 grain loads, but I am not going to actually being any of these to a match until I am 100% on the load, and have at least 50-100 of the brass. Clean up, being black powder, was a snap with hot soapy water, no trouble at all.
Thank you to everyone here for your help!

Edited January 18 by Dapper Dave

[Sedalia Dave]

30 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

 

I'm sure you noticed but the right barrel is shooting a little high left.

 

However, the left barrel is shooting high left enough that may cause you to fail to knock down the target.  

[Dapper Dave]

Yes. I know. I didn't adjust fire so as to get an accurate pattern. It's a $250 shotgun. My gunsmith buddy showed me some things I can do to adjst the cast so to move the pattern more POA, but I haven't gotten to that yet. As Shrek said, "It's on my to-do list". 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

BP always kicks less than an equivalent smokeless load, just a slower recoil impulse.  Well you were in the desert and it's winter, so I'm guessing there was scant humidity, that would be one reason for less smoke.  I almost never swab my chambers during a match with either brass or plastic hulls.  I'm just lazy but since I haven't made it a habit and they don't stick too often I don't think about it.  I'm guessing those lighter loads may be letting fouling back into the chamber.  A little story, Capt Baylor was trying some Rocky Mountain Cartridge brass shells (milled from bar stock, very stout) with 777, but not very much of it.  After only two shots, he had to use a rod to knock the empties out of the barrels.  He said that was the end of his brass hull testing.  I think the load was too light combined with that brass didn't expand at all so the fouling glued them into the chambers. 

[Boggus Deal #64218]

As for knocking down the targets, a light .410 load will knock 99% of them down. I’ve no doubt your loads will!!!

[Burn Through]

what kind of powder is this ?? I have never saw this kind of build up at all shooting black ?  

[Eyesa Horg]

The hot glue maybe???

[Burn Through]

maybe it set for a day but i never have that build up with goex and hot glue also never with sw 

[Sedalia Dave]

Could be because the humidity is pretty low in the desert.

 

@Dapper Dave are you using an over powder card?

[Dapper Dave]

The second set of loads had wads soaked in SPG lube, which I think was the problem. The previous loads were also sealed with hot glue and left no residue behind. 

Cards used are as follows;

 

Over powder cards for all loads.

 

 

Fiber wads used for all loads. For the low power ones, there was no lube, for the high power they were dipped in SPG. Two had two wads and 1OZ shot, two had one fiber wad and 1 1/8ox shot.

 

 

Over shot wads. Used for all but two loads - the two high power, (use that term loosely), with two fiber wads and 1oz shot used these cards, the one with one fiber wad and 1 1/8oz shot used a nitro card as an overshot card.

 

 

I will make more in different combinations to find out what works well. I agree, if a .410 knocks them down, this should do the trick. They just FEEL so light!

Humidity is currently 29%, not really THAT low...

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19 by Dapper Dave

[Dapper Dave]

I should have pointed out, that build up you see so poorly is not a thick paste by any means, but what looked like fibers pulled from the fiber wad and glued to the chamber. Everything cleaned up VERY easily. I have never seen anything like that either, and I've shot black powder revolvers and rifles for a few years now. 

[Erasmus]

When I first switched form Goex to Schuetzen I saw that sort of fouling. It just seems to be ash in my case. I don't really care because I mope the entire bore with a damp mop after each stage. 

[Blackwater 53393]

I don’t recommend soaking the fiber wads in anything. Too much lube is as bad as not enough, in the shotgun. I’ve used waxed wads in conjunction with regular fiber wads with the dry wad nearest to the nitro card.

 

I have also fired many hundreds of rounds out of shotguns with no lube at all and not had any issues. Most of the lubed wads I have and have used were acquired in batches that I got from other shooters who’d decided to quit shooting brass shells or black powder. I especially avoid using them in shells that might sit on a shelf for long periods.

 

I always hated gluing the over shot cards in.  I found most glues were less than reliable, especially if I didn’t use those rounds fairly soon.  I started roll crimping my brass shells several years back and never looked back.  Much cleaner and I can fire them as quickly as they come out of the press!  I even bought a roll crimp die for my 10ga brass.

 

You’ll likely get a good outcome by wiping the chambers between rounds regardless of what load and what reloading process you settle on.

 

It’s a lot of fun figuring out what load you like, but it can be frustrating too.

 

Here’s a picture of my finished brass shells…

 

This is what that shell looked like after it was fired…

 

A quick rinse and a trip through the tumbler and it’s reloaded and ready to fire again!

 

 

 

Edited January 19 by Blackwater 53393

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

There’s a whole lotta overthinking goin’ on in this here thread. To quote one of my BP mentors from way back, Driftwood Johnson, “…it ain’t rocket surgery.”

 

Edited January 19 by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

[Dapper Dave]

Well, that was why I started doing this - it seemed to be reloading for people who don't wanna think!  

The hot glue seems to be doing good so far...but I just started this trip. I still need to use a spade bit in my drill to make a decapping block.
Incidentally, I pulled some of the fired brass out of the tumbler - they look great. Quite surprised. Yes, I loaded some more testers...why not. I'm not here to impress anyone, or win belt buckles, or even score highest in my category. I'm just here to have a good time while shootin'. So far, I've been having a GREAT time while shootin'!