Black Powder shotshells.

["Big Boston"]

I tried to load myself BP shotshells about a year or so ago, with some of the subs as I wasn't able to find real BP. Fast forward to a few weeks ago, I bought a # of Schuetzen. 

 

I loaded  three shells to test yesterday. I used Federal Top gun hulls as I wanted to use card and fiber wads. I used a Cheditte primer as that is what i have and they work well in inline muzzleloaders. I used a LEE 253 scoop. (7/8 oz shot), of FF Schuetzen, (56 gr by weight), and topped it off with a 135 card, a 1/2" fiber wad that I smeared a bit of SPG on, and another 135 card, followed with an ounce of shot. Your basic 2 Dram, one ounce load. 

 

My 600 Mec was set up for AA hulls, the crimp wasn't pretty, but OK for testing. A quick trip to the range and they shot well enough and the noise level was decent, unlike the subs which seem to have a bit of a dull report. 

 

That's the background. I examined the inside of the barrel and the black stuff wasn't too thick and was just an even layer, not clinkered up like my former attempts. I ran cold water down the barrel and the inside looked clean, but I wanted to make sure. I filled a small pail with cold water, Dawn soap and some Borax. I had a brush on the end of a rod and I pumped the soapy water in and out of the barrel, and a lot more black came out. I followed with a liberal rince of hot water. I ran a dry blue towel through the barrel and it came out blackened. So I cleaned some more, repeated the hot and then ran a half sheet of blue towel with Ballistol, still some black. 

 

I repeated the Ballistol soaked patch thing and after a couple more tries it came out a bit cleaner, but I could still see black. Am I missing something, when I clean my 50 cal, I don't do anywheres near the cleaning and a Ballistol patch comes out clean. 

 

It's winter here so I cleaned my barrel in the laundry tub. My wife was out shopping, I wanted everything cleaned up before she got home. About 2 hours later she comes home and says, "what is that smell". I must have gone nose blind, I wasn't smelling anything. 

 

I need a bit more insight into this BP shotshell thing, as it stands now, I can't get too excited about the whole adventure. 

 

BB

[Eyesa Horg]

I use about 40gr of 2F BP with a pink plastic 1oz wad and around an ounce of shot. After a match, a spritz of Windex/vinegar in each barrel from both ends. Cork and let sit, rotating occasionally for several minutes. Ball up a quarter sheet of paper towel and push thru from the breach. Usually shiny clean first time. If not repeat. 

Don't leave the Windex/vinegar on bluing, I'm told it will remove it. I've not had any issues with this method.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

a rolled crimp goes a long way to getting around wad column height issues.   A pot of boiling water in the sink works great with some detergent.  Drop your barrel into it and use a tight fitting cleaning patch to pump water up and into your barrels assuming a SXS.  Plenty of hot water to flush the salts away.  Heat from the water helps to dry your barrel.  Recondition your barrel with one of the natural lube products.  Best luck with no petroleum in your barrel before shooting that first round down the tube.  

The smell of BP early in the morning usually not fully appreciated by the unknowing heathens...

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I like PAM solution for cleaning BP residue, it's cheap and wife won't complain about the smell.   PAM is equal parts of

* hydrogen peroxide (drug store)

* rubbing alcohol (same)

* Murphy's oil soap (ditto, or a store with household cleaning products)

 

Make small batches, store in the empty peroxide bottle with a label "PAM's magic"  - that will make the wife wonder.

 

Nothing there to harm a gun.  Cleans better than soapy water, and leaves a vegetable oil residue behind prevents rust and is kind to wood stocks, too. 

 

Barrels with BP fouling need a 5 minute wetting down  before running a patch through the barrel. (I keep a small spray bottle with PAM in it, even take that to the range for a mid-shoot cleanup if desired).

 

A couple of 1/4 pieces of paper towel push any moistened fouling out the muzzle, and one wetted towel finishes the barrel cleaning.  Easier than smokeless!

 

PAM also cleans greasy stove tops and counters better than most anything else!

 

As for load, about 40 grains of BP is plenty, and 1 or 1 1/8 ounce of shot - stretch that expensive powder as far as you can.

 

good luck, GJ

 

 

Edited December 25, 2024 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

Forgot to mention a bore snake works great to pull the gunk out 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Here's a reference I've used for years.  https://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

 

PAM or windex with vinegar works well to get the fouling and plastic residue out.

I just use a paper towel wrapped around a nylon bore brush.

I spray the barrels, and let them sit a bit while I'm cleaning the guns.

Then, once more with a windex-soaked paper towel wrapped on the bore brush.

Then a dry one to dry the bores, followed by a ballistol or WD-40 soaked bore mop.

Takes longer to type it up than it does to do it.

--Dawg

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I've never seen/heard of keep getting more black fouling out when cleaning BP shotgun.  I'm wondering if it is some older smokeless fouling that is just slow to come out.

[Sedalia Dave]

2 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I've never seen/heard of keep getting more black fouling out when cleaning BP shotgun.  I'm wondering if it is some older smokeless fouling that is just slow to come out.

 

This or some melted plastic from shooting lots of smokeless.  Best thing for removing plastic and smokeless residue is a Tornado brush. They are made of stainless steel and will not harm your barrel unless one of the coils break.  I've been using them for over 40 years and have never had one break.

 

 

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

9 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I've never seen/heard of keep getting more black fouling out when cleaning BP shotgun.  I'm wondering if it is some older smokeless fouling that is just slow to come out.

Or lead.

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

I've been shooting black powder for about20 years, nothing fancy 50 grns powder pink wad done. Clean up with Windex run a brass brush down the. Bore snake. Spray Pam down barrels before a match done

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

9 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

I need a bit more insight into this BP shotshell thing, as it stands now, I can't get too excited about the whole adventure. 

 

BB

Do you have a question? What insight do you seek?

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

7 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

This or some melted plastic from shooting lots of smokeless.  Best thing for removing plastic and smokeless residue is a Tornado brush. They are made of stainless steel and will not harm your barrel unless one of the coils break.  I've been using them for over 40 years and have never had one break.

 

 

The last 4 of these I've purchased broke the first or second time I used them.
The twisted wire part pulled out of the threaded portion that screws into the cleaning rod.
I loved them in the old days, but not now.
I wrote to Hoppes complaining about this, but they never bothered to respond, so I don't purchase or recommend them any more.
I see shooters running them in & out of their shotguns with wild abandon, but mine pull apart immediately.
Tornado brushes have been a great big bust for me lately.

--Dawg
--Dawg

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

When I get home from a shoot the first thing I do is break down my double and spray Windex Vinegar in both barrels then finish unloading my vehicle. I then run a tornado brush down the barrels to remove the black plastic snake out, run a couple of patches with PAM then a few patches of Ballistol and no more black. I have never had a tornado brush break but anything is possible. The black snot from the plastic shells is easy to remove this way. I also shoot brass shot shells now and hardly any  black snot because no plastic. This only takes about 25 minutes to clean and works best for me. Just the view from my saddle. DC

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

* hydrogen peroxide (drug store)

* rubbing alcohol (same)

* Murphy's oil soap (ditto, or a store with household cleaning

Equal parts?
 

I use moose milk: Napa oil water solvable: 1/8 with water. In a spray bottle and I spray liberally, the moose milk will run out of the barrels. A couple of minutes soaking. Repeat.

 

I do all my 90% cleaning at the range or in my garage. I finish up ballistol in my basement.

 

Uriah

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

Any 2.3/4 12g plastic hull i can pick up ,

APP fff 40g charge a gray plastic wad .

7/8 load of shot .

All loaded on a Lee load all .

Shoot the barrels with a shot of Ballistol and push a sheet of paper towel down the barrel. 

Wipe down gun with Ballistol and a rag .

Done !

It's not black magic or rocket science. 

Rooster 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

PAM is equal parts of

Just as I wrote earlier 🙂

 

Ballistol works, I just don't care for the cost or the smell.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited December 26, 2024 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Blackwater 53393]

There are as many ways to clean up after black powder cowboy loads as there are shooters.

 

A quick, easy, effective way to remove fouling and plastic, (if you use plastic wads) is to squirt some windex, (I’ve used either kind) down the barrel or barrels, give it a minute to soak, and then fire a couple of cheap,  lead shot, smokeless shells down range. All the plastic and fouling will blow right out. Swab out the barrels with a couple of Balistol soaked patches and follow that with a clean dry patch.

 

My alternative is to squirt windex down the barrels and then drag a 10ga bore snake through. Follow that with a shot of Balistol and a couple of patches and then a dry patch or two if the first one doesn’t come out clean!

 

I mostly shoot brass shells, so I don’t have the plastic problem too often.  Been known to build my plastic Black Powder shells with fiber wads too!  Powder, 1/8” over powder nitro card, fiber wads (adjusted to make the column work out) my choice of shot (size and weight) and an over shot card with a nice roll crimp.

 

I make no claims as to suitability and none as to how you’ll like the results, but my stuff knocks down the targets, (sometimes even the stationary ones) and gives a satisfying boom, flash, and smoke cloud!!

[Griff]

I've shot BP categories in CAS since 1986,  (yes... the year before SASS was formed!), using AA shotshells and plastic wads.  If you barrels are clean before you fire any BP in them, the ONLY thing needed to get out the melted plastic "snakes" is HOT water.  Tap hot is hot enough.  What kind of lube did you use on your fiber wads?  

 

I take off the barrels set them down in the sink, then run the hot wat water thru them, with a 12 ga tornado brush as SD suggests wrapped by a cotton 12 gauge patch.   Usually cut from an old plain white cotton T-shirt.  Run it all the way thru, pull off the patch and pull the brush back thru the barrel, a second patch on the brush will come back out clean.  A 3rd patch with a preservative oil on it and the shotgun is ready for the safe.  Okay, okay, wipe down the rest of the gun after drying... then it's ready for the safe!

 

BTW, with the Claybuster CB-1138-12 wad you only need about 40 grains of BP to be effective.  For years I used 60 grains of BP... totally unnecessary... and wasteful!  

["Big Boston"]

21 hours ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I've never seen/heard of keep getting more black fouling out when cleaning BP shotgun.  I'm wondering if it is some older smokeless fouling that is just slow to come out.

 

I wondered about that myself, a possibility as it was used with smokeless before. One is water soluble, the other is not, thanks. BTW, after sitting with Ballistol for a day or so, it is clean. 

 

The feedback has been encouraging, it does appear as if I'm on the right track with the Black. the other option is to buy some LNLR WW stuff. 

 

BB

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for Garrison Joe and Prairie Dawg.

 

My only solution for my shotgun barrels is PAM.  Squirt some down the barrels, let em sit for a few minutes, wrap a brass brush with a quarter sheet of heavy blue Paper towel (Lowes), squirt the paper towel with PAM and run it thru the barrels a couple times.  Follow up with a Dry Towel then an Oily patch.  takes longer to type than to do.  Same same, I keep a spritzer of PAM onna Kart to touch up the pistol cylinder faces.  Cheap and easy.  Doesn't smell yucky either.

["Big Boston"]

On 12/25/2024 at 8:18 PM, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Do you have a question? What insight do you seek?

 

I've done a fair bit of research, and I've tested a wee bit. However, the results were not as expected. Like most loading or reloading issues, the devil is in the details. But basically, I was at that point where I didn't know what to ask, so the post. I will be incorporating a few of techniques that have been posted. 

 

Black Powder is an alternate discipline, it brings crud and corrosion to the table that have to be dealt with. Back in the day nickel plating guns was a common thing, mostly to fight the effects of neglecting your firearm. 

 

I have a single shot 12 gauge that I'm using for testing my BP loads. The plan is to buy a SxS external hammer shotgun at some point to enrich the experience. 

 

Scooping powder with a LEE dipper is getting a bit thin, I'm looking into converting one of my Lyman 55s to dispense BP for shotgun. I'm trying to source aluminum and/or brass for the hopper and drop tubes. 

 

BB

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

2 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

Scooping powder with a LEE dipper is getting a bit thin, I'm looking into converting one of my Lyman 55s to dispense BP for shotgun. I'm trying to source aluminum and/or brass for the hopper and drop tubes

Be sure to clean out the Lyman 55 when you get done with black powder. I should have known better, but, I let BP sit in the lineman 55 for a week, it gets really hard to cycle it. Full  disassembly and the measure,  kind of getting back to normal, but not nearly as smooth as it once was.

 

Uriah

Edited December 27, 2024 by Uriah, SASS # 53822
BP

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

24 minutes ago, Uriah, SASS # 53822 said:

Be sure to clean out the Lyman 55 when you get done with black powder. I should have known better, but, I let PB sit in the lineman 55 for a week, it gets really hard to cycle it. Full  disassembly and the measure,  kind of getting back to normal, but not nearly as smooth as it once was.

 

Uriah

Were you using real BP or APP?

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

2 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

I've done a fair bit of research, and I've tested a wee bit. However, the results were not as expected. Like most loading or reloading issues, the devil is in the details. But basically, I was at that point where I didn't know what to ask, so the post. I will be incorporating a few of techniques that have been posted. 

 

Black Powder is an alternate discipline, it brings crud and corrosion to the table that have to be dealt with. Back in the day nickel plating guns was a common thing, mostly to fight the effects of neglecting your firearm. 

 

I have a single shot 12 gauge that I'm using for testing my BP loads. The plan is to buy a SxS external hammer shotgun at some point to enrich the experience. 

 

Scooping powder with a LEE dipper is getting a bit thin, I'm looking into converting one of my Lyman 55s to dispense BP for shotgun. I'm trying to source aluminum and/or brass for the hopper and drop tubes. 

 

BB

Thx for the clarification. I have some thoughts to add, plus a photo or two, but am short on time today. Probably gonna be tonight or tomorrow. Welcome to the dark side!

["Big Boston"]

38 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Were you using real BP or APP?

 

I've tried APP, and some other subs, can't remember which. The crud was incredible, and I shelved the project. However the project was still on the shelf, the idea was to revisit the project if I ever found some BP. (In Canada the rules for shipping any powder or ammo is killing the shooting sports) 

 

I found and bought a # of Schuetzen FF, $66 CAD, so only one #. That is what I'm using now. The main concern is getting a loud bang, and a good amount of smoke. Bang more important than smoke. My APP loads were smokey, but not loud, and dirty as heck. To be fair the APP I have is old and someone has marked the side with the letters N, F, and G. I suspect they didn't get the results they wanted. I've used the same APP in a muzzleloader and it worked OK. 

 

The other powder I have is Alliant Black MZ. It likely will clean up better, but I'm saving it for my deer rifle. 

 

BB 

[Uriah, SASS # 53822]

1 hour ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Were you using real BP or APP?

Black powder.

The measures internal parts are made of brass and that’s fine. The body of the measure is cast-iron. That is not.
 

Uriah

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I dunno there Boston.  I'v been shooting APP for about 10 -12 years and find it much easier to clean than BP.  I don't care for any of the "other" subs.  The worst is Pyrodex.  Pyrodex is a rusting Agent that just happens to burn and I won't allow it anywhere near ANY of my guns.  YMMV

["Big Boston"]

I loaded several more shells to try out some of the suggestions. I've put some of the items like Murphys, Hydrogen Peroxide, 99% isopropyl, a tornado brush and several other items on my shopping list for the new year. And a Garmin chronograph to check the speed.

 

I loaded with AA12-114F wads, 40 grains of Schuetzen FF and on cleanup I got to experience the plastic strings. I was all cleaned up at least an hour before the wife came home, still the "What's is that awful smell" comment as she opened the door. I can see that cleanup will have to be outside in summer, and no shooting in winter. 

 

My little single shot had hammer pressure in spades, so I trimmed about one turn off that and flattened the ends, better, but still a ST of spring pressure left.

 

So, question, does or is a firm fold crimp something that is desired or would a loose roll crimp be better. I had a few crappy looking crimps before I got the wad column in the zone, some were noisy and some were smokier than others. The ones with a proper crimp were a bit quieter but not nearly as smoky. I'm thinking 40 gr of FF is sort of on the minimum side. They don't recoil much. 

 

I admire the cowboys that use BP, IMO it is a commitment.  

 

As part of my fact check, I filled out the form on the MEC site and asked about using a MEC to load BP, the answer came back yes.

 

Q: I'm considering loading shotgun shells for Cowboy action and am considering Black Powder. I've been given recipes that reloaders have for their MEC loaders. Is it OK, or safe to load with Black Powder in a MEC? TIA

 

A: As long as you follow the published recipes for the cowboy action loads it is safe to load them on a MEC press.

 

I have #10 through 39, 40 and 42 bushings, so really nothing holding me back. 

 

Before I forget, how or what is a good way to wash the plastic hulls. I used a bit of water, soap and vinegar, they are clean(ish) but the vinegar sure discolors the brass head. Always something. 

 

Back before starting to shoot cowboy I had a box of 25 Magtech brass 12 ga shells, tried them, got discouraged and sold the lot to a prepper. It does seem I have a history with failed attempts with BP shotshells. 

 

BB 

[Burn Through]

i shoot my hulls bout 3 times and pitch since I can normally pick up others for free at a shoot 

[Dutch Wheeler]

On 12/25/2024 at 12:24 PM, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I like PAM solution for cleaning BP residue, it's cheap and wife won't complain about the smell.   PAM is equal parts of

* hydrogen peroxide (drug store)

* rubbing alcohol (same)

* Murphy's oil soap (ditto, or a store with household cleaning products)

 

 

When I shoot black powder, I am more of a "Moose Milk" guy.  Don't you find, that the alcohol eventually evaporates and changes the ratio and cleaning ability of PAM?

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Dutch Wheeler said:

 

When I shoot black powder, I am more of a "Moose Milk" guy.  Don't you find, that the alcohol eventually evaporates and changes the ratio and cleaning ability of PAM?

I've used PAM before but like Moose Milk better, since it doesn't sting when it gets in little cuts.  But I'm thinking that as long as the PAM container stays closed it will keep the alcohol from evaporating.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

1 hour ago, Dutch Wheeler said:

Don't you find, that the alcohol eventually evaporates and changes the ratio and cleaning ability of PAM?

Nope.  The H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) does break down WAY sooner than the alcohol evaporates.   I just make a new batch.  Make maybe a cup of solution at a time.  Lasts fine in a spray bottle at least a couple of weeks! 

 

I get dry skin in the winter, and even with working man's hand lotion used often, I get cracked fingertips.  What do I treat those cuts with?   Hydrogen peroxide to boil out the cut until it doesn't hurt.  Then super glue to coat over the cut to let is heal without getting deeper. 

 

Maybe I just ought to use PAM for a hand lotion...😆

GJ

Edited December 30, 2024 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

All good reasons to stick with Triple Seven.  Easy to use, easy to load, clean up is a breeze.

[Dutch Wheeler]

4 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

All good reasons to stick with Triple Seven.  Easy to use, easy to load, clean up is a breeze.

 

Real black powder is also easy to use, easy to load, and clean up is a breeze with just water; we just choose to use some of these other concoctions to enhance the results.

["Big Boston"]

On 1/2/2025 at 6:43 AM, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

All good reasons to stick with Triple Seven.  Easy to use, easy to load, clean up is a breeze.

On 1/2/2025 at 10:53 AM, Dutch Wheeler said:

 

Real black powder is also easy to use, easy to load, and clean up is a breeze with just water; we just choose to use some of these other concoctions to enhance the results.

 

Thanks Dutch, I believe that is the correct perspective, or what the story and history of the subs. I am old enough to remember the introduction of Pyrodex, the first Black Powder substitute. 

 

The substitutes were invented or introduced so that they could be transported as a flammable solid as opposed to being an explosive so it could be economically shopped and distributed. Unfortunately, in Canada, all powder, black or smokeless is treated as an explosive. I digress, my bad. 

 

Basically, the subs were supposed to mimic black powder in all the other respects. And the clean up with water characteristic was maintained. After all, if you were a BP user, and were used to cleaning up with water, that aspect was still the same. 

 

It is fortunate that we have choices. I shoot muzzleloader, a 50 cal Gonic, for deer hunting. I've have tried a few of the subs, and have settled on one of the subs, Black MZ, made or distributed by Alliant. That generation of subs, was concocted to be friendly with the plastic used for the saboted bullet that is popular among hunters. I've not tested real BP with a rifle sabot, but I suspect a bit of melting may occur. But bottom line, I've no hunting or testing experience to back that assumption. I also suspect that the sabots used for muzzleloading rifles have plastic formulated to resist the burning characteristics of ordinary plastic. The shotgun wads we use were not intended to be used with BP, they were intended to be used with smokeless shotgun powder. The plastic hulls we use fall into that same category, were not really intended to be used with BP.

 

I love the CAS game and handloading; get a bit bored with what your doing, switch to BP, or start shooting duelist, or buy a SxS, or switch to a '97 if a SxS is what you use now, or buy some clothes from a different cowboy era, our game is not boring. I can get expensive, but if you find it boring, that is on you, not the sport. 

 

BTW, I started another topic, on my converting a 55 to BP. Nothing special, but with the option of buying a new BP 55 or even the kit not available any more, it become interesting. 

 

I tried it and it dispenses FF, with a variation of about +/-  0.2 grains, I'm impressed. 

 

BB