Disputed Time Procedure

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

As far as I know - there is no official SASS rule or position regarding this question.

 

A shooter completes the stage in a time that is very VERY unlikely/ impossible for this shooter.

Now, we all know IF the cause of this incorrect time is TO error, timer malfunction or other known issue; sadly the shooter is informed they must reshoot to record a valid score. 

It sucks, but to maintain integrity - it has to be done, and the shooter will often agree, "Yeah, I couldn't shoot that time ever".

 

But - what is the procedure when the shooter completes the stage in a time that is very unlikely/ impossible for this shooter AND there is no obvious cause for the error?

 

The time is called out and everyone collectively says, "That can't be right".

Shooter grins and says - Wow, I'm good.

 

Can his time be protested?

Who can protest his time?

RO, Posse Leader, his competitors?

Can the shooter be REQUIRED to reshoot?

Under what rules?

 

Handbook says, benefit of a doubt goes to the shooter.

But a 40 second shooter scoring a 20?

A 20 second shooter scoring a 14?

 

What would your club do?

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Check the shot count on the timer. If it doesn't match the number of shots needed for the stage,,,,,shooter is required to re-shoot it.

At an annual match we had a really fast shooter shot and insane fast time. People on the posse got up in arms. 'No one shoots that fast'. A number of really fast shooters were on his posse. Shot count was right. Match director and Posse leader and shooter agreed to go back to the stage. Re-shoot it. lf the shooter is within a 1/2 second of the original time, the time will stand. They went back and he shot a slightly faster time.   The first time was recorded and everyone was in aw........

Edited December 22, 2024 by irish ike, SASS #43615

[Leroy Luck]

1 minute ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Check the shot count on the timer

I’ve noticed on certain timers they don’t catch all the rifle shots all of the time. 
 

The best thing to prevent incorrect times is for the TO to pay attention to the last shot. Also making sure the timer picks it up and changes the time accordingly 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

28 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Check the shot count on the timer. If it doesn't match the number of shots needed for the stage,,,,,shooter is required to re-shoot it.

Based on what rule?

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Leroy Luck said:

I’ve noticed on certain timers they don’t catch all the rifle shots all of the time. 
 

The best thing to prevent incorrect times is for the TO to pay attention to the last shot. Also making sure the timer picks it [last shot] up and changes the time accordingly 

I agree with this. At the extreme case, not recording any shot but still recording the last shot is the stage time.

 

That said, I ran 60+ second stage times at my last SASS shoot, best shooters were pushing down towards 20. If I turned in a 30 on one of those stages and the top shooters were not running below 15, I would agree on principle I did not earn that good a time. I do hope to get that good at some point.

 

A procedure or something in the rules? I would go with reshoot for timer failure. Timer is a TO function and responsibility. While the TO is not prohibited from considering input from other people, it is a TO call.

Edited December 22, 2024 by John Kloehr

[Von Dutch, SASS # 7995]

2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Based on what rule?

Well sounds like he's making up his own rule! been doing this for 30 years and I have never heard of such a rule! Going by his rule I hope the timer picks up all of your shots!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

24 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

If I turned in a 30 on one of those stages and the top shooters were not running below 15, I would agree on principle I did not earn that good a time. I do hope to get that good at some point.

"Most" of us would ethically agree to a reshoot in the case of an obvious incorrect time.

 

But what if the shooter just decides they somehow channeled Badlands Bud that stage AND there is no obvious timer malfunction - is there any recourse?

 

Can it be protested?

By whom?

 

And by what rule would this be supported?

[Marshal Stone, SASS #53366]

34 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

 

Can it be protested?

By whom?

 

And by what rule would this be supported?

 

Sounds like a good question to ask the ROC for clarification, and/or to the TG's if a rule needs to be established.

 

Marshal Stone

[Dutch Coroner]

Thank you for posting this Creeker, I am not aware of an answer to this either.  
 

I have seen this go both ways, shooter says no way, I need to reshoot that, and shooter that kept a score that was very obviously wrong.  The majority have acknowledged the time was beyond their capabilities and had a reshoot.
 

I remember hearing about this at my first EOT in 2014.  A very good shooter, that I know, burned down a stage, another very good shooter, that I also know, was on the posse.  He believed the time given was a mistake and he believed there should be a reshoot.  I had and still have great respect for both of them.  I know it was taken to the match officials because I was running the timer when a match official came to our bay and specifically asked me if I was watching the timer to make sure it was picking up the last shot.  I had good trainers, so the answer was yes.  I was then told about this issue, not in detail, I found that out later.
 

 The score stood and it was the stage winning time.

 

Dutch

 

 

[Yul Lose]

49 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

"Most" of us would ethically agree to a reshoot in the case of an obvious incorrect time.

 

But what if the shooter just decides they somehow channeled Badlands Bud that stage AND there is no obvious timer malfunction - is there any recourse?

 

Can it be protested?

By whom?

 

And by what rule would this be supported?

Brother JEDI Creeker, I accomplished this fete at the Western Divisional about 6 years ago. I shot a 10 second stage and was walking on air as I carried my guns to the unloading table knowing that I had finally come into my own as a gunfighter. Of course I’d only been shooting as a gunfighter for a short time but now I was up there with the likes of you and Missouri Lefty and other famous CAS gunfighters. As I was at the unloading table basking in the golden halo of gunfighter glory the TO came over and informed me that the timer had malfunctioned and that I would have to reshoot the stage. I knew immediately that he was singling me out for special persecution because he was quite good at shooting 2 handed and apparently was quite envious of my suddenly perfecting my gunfighting skills. I protested but was about $49.00 short on the protest fee so reluctantly and bitterly I reshot the stage and ended up with a 29 second stage and knew immediately that the timer had screwed up again, there was absolutely no way I shot it that fast and I didn’t have enough ammo for another reshoot.

[Hoss]

The shot counter on timer can’t really be trusted. Hopefully TO saw last shot recorded. 
I had similar happen at a state match a few years ago. I expected to shot about a 25 if all went well. Ida been tickled with a 22.  Timer called 17 & change. My fastest stage ever! Considering Ive never broken 18 on a stand & deliver 10-10-4+ I knew it wasn’t right. Of course I claimed they should let it stand But in reality I knew I was going to re-shoot. 
 

A hugely obvious one like that is simple. 1 or 2 seconds from expected plus or minus and I think time stands. (Absent any other input/explanation) I would imagine most of us can estimate a time pretty closely while shooting/counting/TOing or just listening while at the cart!
 

99% of shooters I know, if they think time is incorrect, would step up and say so. For the 1% who would lie or cheat for a buckle, well, if you can live with it, I can live without it. 
 

[Jackalope]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

somehow channeled Badlands Bud

 

Funny you would mention Bud.   Many years ago in Fernley, NV, Bud's time was challenged and Quick Cal (the match director)  asked him to reshoot the stage.  Instead of putting up a fuss, he only asked if he could keep his time if he went even faster on his retry.  Don't recall if he beat his previous attempt, but I thought he acted with class.

Edited December 22, 2024 by Jackalope

[Hells Comin]

Does it work the other way to if your time is to slow. I could use this from time to time well maybe more than that.

 

     Hells Comin 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

they somehow channeled Badlands Bud

Creeker, the example I gave was for Badlands Bud.

[John Kloehr]

2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

"Most" of us would ethically agree to a reshoot in the case of an obvious incorrect time.

 

But what if the shooter just decides they somehow channeled Badlands Bud that stage AND there is no obvious timer malfunction - is there any recourse?

 

Can it be protested?

By whom?

 

And by what rule would this be supported?

Fair followup for me running at the keyboard. Your rules question is fair, my main point in commenting is that if it happened to me, I will accept a reshoot with no problem for an inexplicably great score. And I feel Spirit of the Game supports this as the general principle, even if not listed as a rule.

 

I do see clearly that every person present is a safety office, but this is not a safety issue. Safety is the one area I find where everybody can and should speak up. But what support I do find (and how far I can stretch who can say something) follows.

 

I do find this on page 11:

 

"When a shooter has Spirit of the Game, it means one fully participates in what the competition asks. You do not look for ways to create an advantage out of what is, or is not, stated as a rule or shooting procedure. Some folks would call Spirit of the Game nothing more than good sportsmanship."

 

This certainly supports not taking advantage of what clearly is not a real time (me suddenly running seriously faster than before). Common sense and good sportsmanship are the key elements for this question.

 

Who can protest... That is a good question. Certainly the TO. Even the competitor can say "that ain't right." But I find no support in the basic handbook for anyone else to protest the announced time. Not even in the Spirit of the Game section. I grappled with this part:

 

"... what is, or is not, stated as a rule ..."

 

and can't allow it to be the basis of throwing out potentially any clearly stated rule.

 

I looked further into RO 1. The TO can not over-rule the spotters as regards to misses, but can ask them for clarifications. In addition, as regards spotters:

 

"The TO polls the 3 spotters to determine the number of misses and can consider their
input regarding any penalties, as well as any personal observations during the stage."

 

This dialog does potentially support querying the TO as to the recorded stage time,,, maybe... as "personal observations." But this language does not say they have any more power to protest than others present at the stage. Just provide observations.

 

And even then -- for a dialog which allows for personal observations -- this language does not occur in the specific outline of spotter responsibilities.

 

I have not yet taken RO 2, so will not review the text of it without taking the course for context.

 

So the rules support (sort of) a Spirit of the Game escape hatch for something not in the rules. Exercisable by the TO, and even the shooter, to question a too-good time, and perhaps the spotters if "personal observation" can be stretched that far. But every one seems they should suck it up if someone ends up with an unexplainable gift. Like when a breeze knocks down all the knockdowns, shoot where they were is a gift.

 

Given some of the personal experiences just posted above, perhaps this is worth a look at in committee. I'm just not fast enough for it to really matter. For me, the worst result would be to shoot the stage again (more trigger time). And maybe find out things clicked and I am burning it down.

Edited December 22, 2024 by John Kloehr

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

If a shooter wants to keep a time he knows he couldn't shoot then let him keep it ..who cares he's only  really  cheatin him dang self !!....and others will always remember...

[Tn Tombstone]

It is up to to TO to make sure the last shot is picked up. If TO can not say for sure then BOD goes to shooter.

I had this happen to me, state match. Time was faster than I can shoot by  few seconds.(Maybe 10 or so)  TO was not looking at the clock so does not know for sure but I do. (Best stage of the day by the way.)Took the reshoot and did not do well.

Still bugs me.

TO's do your job and watch the last shots record.

[Jackalope]

1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Creeker, the example I gave was for Badlands Bud.

 

Yessir, that's the one I mentioned.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Jackalope

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

The timer being used does not beep, light up or otherwise signal that it is malfunctioning. It's up to the TO to position the timer to see the last shot or two register on the timer at the end of the stage. If he can not confirm this wouldn't it at least be operator error?

[Go West]

If the timer didn't malfunction (all shots were recorded), no forced reshoot or a punitive spirit of the game penalty for not wanting to do it again.

 

Now if someone covered the port to game the system by preventing additional shots and time, ban the TO and the shooter from the club. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

12 minutes ago, Go West said:

If the timer didn't malfunction (all shots were recorded), no forced reshoot or a punitive spirit of the game penalty for not wanting to do it again.

 

Now if someone covered the port to game the system by preventing additional shots and time, ban the TO and the shooter from the club. 

There is ZERO requirement that all shots are recorded.  

No one is implying cheating or nefarious intention.

 

The questions are very simple...

Can a shooters time be disputed?

 

By whom?

 

Under what conditions and in accordance with what rule?

 

[Fretless]

Personal opinion:

The idea of disputing somebody else's time flies in the face of the spirit of cowboy action shooting.  That would pave the way for the demise of the camaraderie and support this game is known for. 

 

If somebody does identify a rule that allows a shooter to dispute another shooter's time, we should take that to our TGs and ask that it be removed from the handbook.

 

Maybe I'm being too harsh in my condemnation.  If so, I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

32 minutes ago, Fretless said:

Personal opinion:

The idea of disputing somebody else's time flies in the face of the spirit of cowboy action shooting.  That would pave the way for the demise of the camaraderie and support this game is known for. 

 

If somebody does identify a rule that allows a shooter to dispute another shooter's time, we should take that to our TGs and ask that it be removed from the handbook.

 

Maybe I'm being too harsh in my condemnation.  If so, I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

The consensus repeated time after time is "failing to award someone their deserved penalty (a P, a Safety, a Miss, whatever) is penalizing EVERY other shooter at the match"

 

Wouldn't the contrary be just as true?

Allowing an OBVIOUSLY incorrect score to be recorded is a disadvantage to every other shooter at the match.

 

I can dispute someones BP smoke.

I can call out a shooter with illegal equipment.

I can call out a lack of required equipment (safety or category specific).

 

But we simply are going to allow 35 second shooters to be scored with 16 second times because of camaraderie? 

 

Again this is not about deliberate action or cheating - this is about "something aint right".

 

I don't expect shooters to volunteer they missed a target and I don't expect shooters to dispute their own times.

But when "something aint right" - is there a mechanism to ensure the time recorded is accurate?

Edited December 23, 2024 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Fretless]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The consensus repeated time after time is "failing to award someone their deserved penalty (a P, a Safety, a Miss, whatever) is penalizing EVERY other shooter at the match"

 

Wouldn't the contrary be just as true?

Allowing an OBVIOUSLY incorrect score to be recorded is a disadvantage to every other shooter at the match.

 

I can dispute someones BP smoke.

I can call out a shooter with illegal equipment.

I can call out a lack of required equipment (safety or category specific).

 

But we simply are going to allow 35 second shooters to be scored with 16 second times because of camaraderie? 

 

Again this is not about deliberate action or cheating - this is about "something aint right".

 

I don't expect shooters to volunteer they missed a target and I don't expect shooters to dispute their own times.

But when "something aint right" - is there a mechanism to ensure the time recorded is accurate?

All of the things you listed, which we can call out another shooter for, are illegal actions taken by that shooter.  Whether or not they were intentional is irrelevant.  

 

In contrast, per your original, and repeated, comments, there is nothing that can be pointed to as being wrong other than the time itself.   That to me sounds like BOD to the shooter.

 

I should clarify that I am not advocating the lucky shooter keep a time they know they didn't earn.  I am just saying it's up to them, and only them.  

 

Now, if you are looking for a way to prevent "something aint right" I have a suggestion.  I think it's probably so rare it's not worth the hassle, but here you go.  Have the scorekeeper run a stop watch.  The times won't match exactly, but as long as they're close you can have confidence in the official clock.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Fretless
Correcting typo

[Texas Jack Black]

BOD  or change the rules. 

 

 Merry Christmas

[Rye Miles #13621]

I consistently shoot in the low 30's, sometimes I'm in the high 20's. If I had for instance a 10 or 15 I would question that myself. I think any self respecting shooter would do the same. I agree the timer is not always accurate when going back and checking the shots, most of the time it is but not always,. I see no rule governing this so it's the shooter's call. That's MHO.

[Tully Mars]

As a match RO at the Western Regionals a few years ago we had this very situation. An average shooter shot a clean stage in an extremely fast time, someone on the posse questioned the time to the posse leader, he called for the match RO's. When we arrived the TO that ran the shooter through the stage was positive, he had done his job of running the clock properly, yet could not believe the time, the shooter stated he had never shot a stage that fast before.

 

The shooter offered to reshoot the stage; he knew he was not that fast of a shooter.

 

I and the other RO could find no reason to force a reshoot. The TO saying he did his job with the timer properly pretty much put the issue to rest. Had the shooter been made to reshoot the stage he could have gotten a “P” or miss, or even a SDQ or MDQ.

The MD was informed of our decision and was fine with the outcome. The shooter ended up with the top time for the stage overall. I am certain it was an error with the timer, but how else could we have handled it?

[slow poke gear]

From my ro classes they said that one of the most important duties of a timer operator is to make sure the timer picks up the first and last shots. My opinion is that the shooter always gets the benefit of the doubt, maybe the stars aligned and everything went right for them. Unless the TO can say that the timer didn't pick the last shot (bc he is watching the timer)

 

The benefit goes to the shooter.

 

 

This in my opinion is no different than 2 spotters say clean 1 spotter says 4 misses, the shooter gets it clean. 

Edited December 23, 2024 by slow poke gear

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

Just posted a link to this thread on the TG wire for possible discussion at EOT meeting.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

23 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Based on what rule?

Didn't say it was a rule. I answered the question. This is what we do. If someone is a 25 second shooter and they shoot  16 something went wrong somewhere. Either they didn't shoot all the rounds, or the timer/timer operator screwed up.   Logic.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

41 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

If someone is a 25 second shooter and they shoot  16 something went wrong somewhere. Either they didn't shoot all the rounds, or the timer/timer operator screwed up.   Logic.

There are assumptions.

if;

   The "clock" is working correctly 

    and TO did the job correctly.

          Then the 16 seconds is valid

 

Those two assumptions are the issue.

I suspect that one or both assumptions are NOT valid, regarding the 16 seconds.

Most likely the TO did not get the last shot(s) and did not visually confirm the "clock" at the end of the string.  Poor TO'ing is easy to see, and should be obvious to the observers.  

It is possible the "clock" is failing.  Check the battery.  Carefully observe the clock on the next shooter.  If it fails then those two shooters need to do a re-shoot due to "clock" failure.  If it does not fail and the TO is doing the job correctly, then the 16 second time is good.

I have not dealt with what to do if there is poor TO'ing.  Is this the same as "clock" failing?  If so replace the TO (like replacing the clock) and re-shoot.

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

I mentioned this In my previous post. Is the TO supposed to check the timer when the last shot or couple of shots on a stage are fired to confirm that they are registering on the timer being used? If so and he did not on a stage with a questionable time why wouldn't that be operator error. 

[wyliefoxEsquire]

RO II manual Pages 8- 11

Duties of the Timer Operator (TO)

The Course of Fire

.......As the shooter approaches the last shot to be fired, prepare to watch the last timer update and cover the timer’s microphone immediately after the shooter is finished, preventing the recording of shots from the adjacent bay(s). 

 

 

IMO, clock/timer failure is easy to notice and therefore fix.    TO failure is not so easy.

 

[Eyesa Horg]

8 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I consistently shoot in the low 30's, sometimes I'm in the high 20's. If I had for instance a 10 or 15 I would question that myself. I think any self respecting shooter would do the same. I agree the timer is not always accurate when going back and checking the shots, most of the time it is but not always,. I see no rule governing this so it's the shooter's call. That's MHO.

My scores are like yours. However once in a third blue moon, I do a stage in the mid 20s! I almost always say "really!". It does happen! Especially if there is only 2 shotgun and I can get them in the barrels before I reach the window! It's happened to me twice in 12 years!! Nobody questioned it except my "really" comment. Now if the score fell into the teens or low 20s, there's something amiss.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

I mentioned this In my previous post. Is the TO supposed to check the timer when the last shot or couple of shots on a stage are fired to confirm that they are registering on the timer being used? If so and he did not on a stage with a questionable time why wouldn't that be operator error. 

It may well be Timer Operator error - but people do not like to be called out or admit a mistake (you see it all the time with spotters) - they lose concentration, end up in the wrong position, etc. and then instead of admitting their error - they just copy the count of another.

 

Timers are just as falliable - they go the wrong way, hold timers incorrectly, lose concentration, get focused on another task (safety, round counts, assisting the shooter) instead of watching the timer - a million things can occur that can lead to an incorrect time (and the timer may not even be aware of the issue or may not want to admit their "possible" error)

 

Again - I am not saying ANYONE is cheating;

I am simply asking IF a time that doesn't seem right can be challenged?

 

By whom?

 

And by what rule?