Blackwater 53393 Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 I have a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt. I was wondering if it could be easily adapted to use the .454 Casul five shot cylinder. The .454 uses the same frame, according to Ruger, but I don’t know if the pawl or linkage is the same. Is this something that can be done without major issues with timing? Could it be made a drop in like the .45 acp cylinder, or will I have to give up the six shot .45 Colt capability? I know my way around a ‘75 Remington or any of the cap ‘n’ ball guns, but other than a good cleaning, I’ve never been deep into a Ruger. Quote
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 You want to talk with Bowen Classic Arms https://www.bowenclassicarms.com/ or Dustin Linebaugh Custom Revolvers; they have done those conversions. 1 Quote
Assassin Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 I'd call Linebaugh. PM me for his number. Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 19, 2024 Author Posted December 19, 2024 The .454 Blackhawk uses the same frame as the .45 Colt, but uses the Super Blackhawk steel grip frame. This much I found on the web. The cylinder for the .454 is a non-fluted, five chamber cylinder. Of course, the .45 Colt and .45 acp cylinders are six shot, so I’m wondering if one could install the Super Blackhawk grip frame and the .454 cylinder without major issues with timing. If it’s possible, I could have a triple purpose revolver… Quote
Griff Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 (edited) I would think that at a minimum, the hand & plunger in the case of an OM or the transfer bar in the NM would need replacing, I'm not sure that just the ratchet could adjust for the changing from a one sixth rotation to a one fifth. Edited December 19, 2024 by Griff correction. Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 19, 2024 Author Posted December 19, 2024 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Griff said: I would think that at a minimum, the hand & plunger in the case of an OM or the transfer bar in the NM would need replacing, I'm not sure that just the ratchet could adjust for the changing from a one sixth rotation to a one fifth. Thanks, Griff! You’re seeing the same thing I am. Like I said, I know the internals of the cap ‘n’ ball guns. The Kirst conversion for the .44 cal guns uses five useable chambers and a blank space that’s not on the same timing as the five. I’m just wondering if the action of the Blackhawk has similar tolerances. Given that there is some over travel in the hammer stroke on a stock Ruger, it COULD be possible. Edited December 19, 2024 by Blackwater 53393 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 Research the chamber PSI difference between .45 Colt and .454 Casull. The 454 Casull has higher PSI than most modern rifles. The 5 shot cylinder is for wall thickness needed to contain the PSI. Freedom Arms also uses a 5 shot cylinder for this cartridge Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 19, 2024 Author Posted December 19, 2024 (edited) 13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Research the chamber PSI difference between .45 Colt and .454 Casull. The 454 Casull has higher PSI than most modern rifles. The 5 shot cylinder is for wall thickness needed to contain the PSI. Freedom Arms also uses a 5 shot cylinder for this cartridge I’m aware of the difference in the .454 cylinder, (five chambers instead of six and no fluting). It still has the same radius for the centerline of each chamber and the cylinder fits into the Blackhawk main frame. I’m asking if the five chamber cylinder could be substituted for the standard .45 Colt cylinder the same way that the .45 acp cylinder can be substituted without making changes to the action. Edited December 19, 2024 by Blackwater 53393 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 Just now, Blackwater 53393 said: I’m aware of the difference in the .454 cylinder, (five chambers instead of six and no fluting). It still has the same radius for the centerline of each chamber and the cylinder fits into the Blackhawk main frame. Fluting can be done. You just might want the extra weight to help with recoil. You will love the .454 Casull, been shooting my Freedom Arms since 1997. I suggest you confirm that your Ruger has the barrel ROT as the Ruger .454 does. Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 19, 2024 Author Posted December 19, 2024 (edited) 13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Fluting can be done. You just might want the extra weight to help with recoil. You will love the .454 Casull, been shooting my Freedom Arms since 1997. I suggest you confirm that your Ruger has the barrel ROT as the Ruger .454 does. I wouldn’t want to have the .454 cylinder fluted. I’d be leery of removing any metal for fear of weakening the cylinder. Good point on the barrel and cylinder rotation!! Definitely worth investigating. Edited December 19, 2024 by Blackwater 53393 Quote
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 As Rainmaker posted, call Bowen Classic Arms (Hamilton Bowen). Heck, he lives just a few miles from me here in Blount County. ..........Widder 2 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 19, 2024 Posted December 19, 2024 52 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: I wouldn’t want to have the .454 cylinder fluted. I’d be leery of removing any metal for fear of weakening the cylinder. Good point on the barrel and cylinder rotation!! Definitely worth investigating. Freedom Arms will flute their. 454 cylinders It's the 'meat' between the chambers that is really important. Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 19, 2024 Author Posted December 19, 2024 I may have a little more information about this over the weekend! My little brother has a Super Blackhawk Hunter in .454 Casull. Maybe I can try his cylinder in my Blackhawk Saturday when we all get together for Christmas at my mom’s. I like the unfluted cylinder! Kina’ reminds me of my 1860s!!😜 2 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 21 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said: I may have a little more information about this over the weekend! My little brother has a Super Blackhawk Hunter in .454 Casull. Maybe I can try his cylinder in my Blackhawk Saturday when we all get together for Christmas at my mom’s. I like the unfluted cylinder! Kina’ reminds me of my 1860s!!😜 Take pictures, PLZ. A unfluted cylinder is slippery to turn with sweaty hands or when wearing gloves. Quote
Rip Snorter Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Take pictures, PLZ. A unfluted cylinder is slippery to turn with sweaty hands or when wearing gloves. Now There is a thought - an unfluted cylinder with a nice machining / checkering! 1 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 Just now, Rip Snorter said: Now There is a thought - an unfluted cylinder with a nice machining / checkering! Never seen that before, interesting. Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 20, 2024 Author Posted December 20, 2024 (edited) Here’s my brother’s! Hopefully, he’ll bring it this weekend! It does have a heavier barrel and the base pin is different. Edited December 20, 2024 by Blackwater 53393 1 1 Quote
Rip Snorter Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 12 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Never seen that before, interesting. Neither have I, could be great or a disaster! Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 2 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said: Neither have I, could be great or a disaster! Depends on who does scratch'n. 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 20, 2024 Author Posted December 20, 2024 I’m thinking, if it works, a 1/2” wide band around the cylinder, knurled or heavily bead blasted and then re-blued. 1 Quote
Griff Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: Depends on who does scratch'n. Who could roll stamp a naval scene? 1 Quote
Rip Snorter Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 I could see something that bridges practical and artistic. The Gritz hit the nail on the head. Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 23 minutes ago, Griff said: Who could roll stamp a naval scene? Jim Downing, SASS alias is Scratch. He will cut engrave it. 1 1 Quote
Boggus Deal #64218 Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 Well, it WILL NOT time the same. 60° of rotation for a 6 shot cylinder. 72° for a 5 shot cylinder. Also, Ruger won’t sell you a cylinder. They also won’t fit a cylinder to a gun that they didn’t sell in that caliber. 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 20, 2024 Author Posted December 20, 2024 1 hour ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said: Well, it WILL NOT time the same. 60° of rotation for a 6 shot cylinder. 72° for a 5 shot cylinder. Also, Ruger won’t sell you a cylinder. They also won’t fit a cylinder to a gun that they didn’t sell in that caliber. There are ways to work around the availability issue. I’m not sure, the timing issue seems to be minor, seeing as how they are changing the stroke on all sorts of revolvers these days. As I mentioned earlier, the timing on some of the conversion cylinders is not even the same from chamber to chamber and they work. I don’t know, but I’d need an example of the cylinder to find out! I might get my hands on one this weekend. 3 Quote
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 Blackwater, WHO did the work on your bro's pistol? I have 2 of those SBH 'Hunter' models in .45 Colt and have been tempted to hire Bowen to set it up in .454 for me. ..........Widder Quote
Dantankerous Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 Never to begrudge someone a revolver project but are you wanting the .454 simply because it's an awesome caliber and very cool and a conversion is a lot of fun? Or do you want to shoot some really hot loads out of that gun? 45 Colt can be quite stout these days with modern loadings. 300 grain and heavier +P loads are available quite a few places. Or you can handload them as there's plenty of information now on those loads. For several years I have been loading some really hot 45 Colt ammo and have had a lot of fun doing so. Stuff that only a Ruger can handle. I love shooting large bore revolvers. And one thing I have noticed is if you're going to shoot hot loads, especially something like the .454 CasulI, I would damn sure only do it with a Ruger Bisley style grip. You did not specify, but i'm assuming yours is a standard plow handle grip. That might hurt with .454. Either way have fun with your project. As previously mentioned, a call to one of the big bore revolver specialists should be in order to answer your questions properly. 2 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 20, 2024 Author Posted December 20, 2024 Widder!! It’s a Lipsey’s special, built for them by Ruger. They, (Ruger) make a SBH in .454 in limited runs. Dan!! It’s mostly a quest for information with a secondary thought for making a possible three way convertible, having a .45 Colt cylinder, one for .45 acp, and a third in .454 Casull. The hot load thing is an ongoing project that I have been receiving information from my buddy, Widder. He’s done some extensive research and testing, which I’ve been lucky enough to be a beneficiary of!! I just ran three small sample loadings, yesterday, that I got from him and I intend to try them this weekend. As far as the grip goes, I would replace the factory grip with one from a SBH and I have a set of Hoague padded grips that I could use. 1 1 Quote
Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 Buffalo Bore ammo is a much cheaper way to obtain similar results. Also check out Paco Kelly's web page for 45 magnum loads if you reload your own bullets. 300 grain lead out at 1200 -1300 fps from a 4 inch barrels will get a lot of attention on both ends. 2 1 Quote
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 Yep, my 'hot' .45 Colt loads have been tried and tested over a period of a few years. I test for powder volume availability using the .45 Colt brass and .454 Casull brass that has been cut down to .45 Colt OAL. To those unaware, the 'cut down' .454 Casull brass has MORE available space inside the case than does the .45 Colt brass. Starline, due to the Casull using SMALL primer (rifle or pistol) has a slight recess in the bottom of the brass, which gives it more space on the inside. The SMALL primer pocket also allows for a slightly thicker web area. Even with some of my hottest loads (which have never exceeded the published load data specifically for the Blackhawks, T/C Contenders, Marlin 1894's), I haven't experienced any pressure signs, split brass, or even flattened primers. Loads can be set up to give good .44 Magnum type performance, all the while creating LESS pressures. I basically use Hornady 240 XTP Mag, 300 XTP Mag, and the 250 XTP (its not listed as a 'mag' bullet). Luckily, I own a plow handled Ruger SBH 'Hunter' with a 5.5" mag-na-ported barrel. And, a 'Bisley' Ruger SBH Hunter with the factory 7.5" barrel. AND, a couple Marlin 1894's in .45 Colt, with 16.5" barrels. Good, hot .45 Colt fodder, loaded up using 'cut down' .454 Casull bass, is my mainstay in those Ruger's and Marlins. ..........Widder 2 2 Quote
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 20, 2024 Posted December 20, 2024 Easy to see 1500 fps in my Freedom Arms. 454 Casull 4 3/4" bbl, with 300 gr bullets and lots of H-110/WW-296 powder. Freedom Arms has load data on their web site. 2 1 Quote
Blackwater 53393 Posted December 20, 2024 Author Posted December 20, 2024 That 250 gr XTP bullet that Widder mentions in a cut down .454 case makes as pretty a cartridge as I have ever seen! I’m stoked about getting to try three of Widder’s recipes while I’m up at Mom’s tomorrow! Maybe I’ll figure out more on the Casull cylinder too! Thanks, fellers!! 1 1 Quote
River Jordan, SASS 18742 Posted December 21, 2024 Posted December 21, 2024 sent you a PM about some bullets for your project 1 Quote
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted December 21, 2024 Posted December 21, 2024 Blackhawk, dont forget to test your crimp. 1. Mark a round. 2. Measure the OAL of your 'marked' round. 3. load the 'marked' round plus 5 more unmarked rounds into your chambers. 4. Fire the 5 'Unmarked' rounds. DON'T FIRE THE 'MARKED' ROUND 5. Pull the marked round and measure the OAL. A .003-.004 bullet movement (Increase in OAL) within the cannelure is not critical and basically confirms a sufficient crimp for those hot rounds. If your crimp is sufficient, you could possibly put that marked round back in the pistol and fire more rounds without the marked round showing more than .001 movement. Good luck. Wish I were there! ..........Widder 2 1 Quote
Ethan Cord Posted December 21, 2024 Posted December 21, 2024 I purchased a Ruger Bisley model in 45 Colt in the 90's and called and spoke with John Linebaugh about his conversions after reading Ross Seyfreid's articles about the .475 Linebaugh in Guns & Ammo. Not long after that I picked up a screaming deal on a Freedom Arms Model 83 in .454 Casull, so I never had John do a conversion for me. He definitely would have been the guy I used if i would have pursued the work. 2 Quote
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