A general question about Pistol competitions

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Of the past few years, many test have been done (and put on YouTube) about bullet 'Penetration'.   Basically, 

penetration of various bullets and calibers...... and of course, the power of those tested calibers.

 

Most all defense rounds penetrate  12-18" in jell blocks.

Most all defense rounds penetrate 10-13. 1/2" pine boards.

Most all defense rounds blow up a milk jug.

 

So here is my inquiry....... why do competitors run down range, shooting up to 3 or 4 mags of ammo, pretending to hide behind

a barrier as they advance the stage, all the while pretending that each barrier is allowing them to SAFELY hide behind the wall

while engaging appropriate targets.

 

In real life, they're gonna get shot with a bullet coming thru the wall where they are hiding.     OOPS, that wasn't in the training.

 

Do some of these folks actually believe that a little board wall is gonna protect them from someone shooting back?

 

..........Widder

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just a game, nut'n 'real-world' about it.

You even have limit lines you can't cross. 

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Difference between cover and concealment 

[Alpo]

50 minutes ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Difference between cover and concealment 

 

[John Kloehr]

It's a game. The targets don't run, they don't hide, and they are not trying to shoot you.

 

Some of the things you do for good scores in games could get you killed in a real fight.

[Cypress Sun]

28 minutes ago, Alpo said:

 

 

One of my favorite cartoons when I was a kid.

[Pat Riot]

When I was a kid I wanted to grow up and be Race Bannon. 

 

—————————————————————

 

Regarding Widder’s inquiry: 

I have often wondered how many people have discovered the hard way that an apartment wall is definitely not “cover”?

 

I recall one club I shot IDPA matches with where the ROs actually explained that various barriers were either cover (protection) or just concealment in the courses of fire. 

[Subdeacon Joe]

2 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Do some of these folks actually believe that a little board wall is gonna protect them from someone shooting back?

 

A couple of years ago (which,  at this point,  likely means 10+ years ago) I came across a study, I  think by the FBI, that seemed to  show that when shooting at  partially concealed target people, including their own trained agents,  rarely try to shoot through the flimsy concealment. Even when they intellectually understand that the sheet rock isn't going to protect the person behind it there is a gut feeling of "if I can't see it I can't hit it."

[Pat Riot]

9 minutes ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

A couple of years ago (which,  at this point,  likely means 10+ years ago) I came across a study, I  think by the FBI, that seemed to  show that when shooting at  partially concealed target people, including their own trained agents,  rarely try to shoot through the flimsy concealment. Even when they intellectually understand that the sheet rock isn't going to protect the person behind it there is a gut feeling of "if I can't see it I can't hit it."

I recall that FBI study as well. 
 

When I was in the Navy I got to interact with some Navy SEALs at one of their “Shoot Houses”. I remember them saying that “bad guys think that walls protect them” after I asked why the walls were all shot up. One guy showed me what a 7.62 round did to load bearing upright beams on their way through to the dummy on the other side of it. That beam and that dummy were tore up. 

[Stump Water]

It works in the movies.   Most of 'em anyway.

[Texas Maverick]

2 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Difference between cover and concealment 

this was drilled into us at the academy. We were told to make sure we remember this when in the field. There is a big difference.

 

TM

[Subdeacon Joe]

1 hour ago, Pat Riot said:

I recall that FBI study as well. 

 

Oh, good!  I was 99 44/100 sure that is what it was, but with a mild case of CRS there was that little bit of doubt.  

[El Chapo]

FYI, most of the time the walls in competition are just vision barriers in order to prevent you from just standing there and blasting the targets.  It makes the game more interesting when the targets can only be shot when and in the order they present to the shooter's vision.  If there was more movement in CAS it'd be the same way.

Edited December 12, 2024 by El Chapo

[Chantry]

8 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Do some of these folks actually believe that a little board wall is gonna protect them from someone shooting back?

 

..........Widder

 

 

Probably not, but real bullet proof barriers are heavy and hard to move around on the range.

 

I've done some of those types of matches and 99% of us recognize that whatever we are hiding behind wouldn't stop a bullet in the real world, but serves as a placeholder/symbol/example of something that might be cover in the real world.

 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I figure if somebody breaks into my house (day or night), I plan to blow all the walls down with my Beretta 1301

and let the vultures take care of the clean up.

 

..........Widder

 

[John Kloehr]

7 hours ago, Subdeacon Joe said:

 

... there is a gut feeling of "if I can't see it I can't hit it."

I think there may also be a gut feeling of being held responsible for unintended consequences (like shooting an unknown hostage) when shooting at a concealed target. Knowing the wall won't stop the bullet but not knowing what (who) else might be behind the wall...

 

A big difference in rules between military engagement and civilian LE.

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

 

Widder, you play a shooting game , CAS, and you don’t expect it to be the same as real life do you?

 

I think the key here is shooting games… Everyone is shooting games not practicing self defense.

 

There are lots of things we would do differently in a self defense situation that we cannot do while gaming.

 

Break the 170/180 degree rule while gaming? No way

 

Break it while saving a life?

I wouldn’t give it a second thought.

 

Shoot around a prop simulates different shooting situations same as in CAS.

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

I think the key here is shooting games… Everyone is shooting games not practicing self defense.

I do sometimes shoot my carry guns in certain competitions, and retired one because of what I learned.

 

And I would defend myself with any arm I own.

 

But games are still games. I have taken a variety of defense courses and encourage all to do so. These range form the basic carry classes to know the law, LE level from those who have won fights, FEMA Active Shooter training (Run, Hide, Fight, but also how LE will respond to it and to you if you are fighting) and even an Israeli on dealing with an active shooter (suicide terrorist). Definitely eye-opening, all of them.

[Blackwater 53393]

I’m of the same mind as Widder!  There are three inhabitants in my house. All three are accomplished shooters and I have some very nasty stuff in some very nasty protective devices around the place.

 

In the words of George HW Bush, “It would not be prudent…” …

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

IDPA is based more on self defense but is still a game..  The others USPSA, ICORE, SASS don't pretend to be anything self defense wise other then the benefit of testing your shooting and gun handling abilities. 

[bgavin]

On 12/12/2024 at 4:53 AM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Do some of these folks actually believe that a little board wall is gonna protect them from someone shooting back?

..........Widder

 

Or a car door?

[Anvil Al #59168]

Fun!!!!!

 

 

[El Chapo]

21 hours ago, John Kloehr said:

I do sometimes shoot my carry guns in certain competitions, and retired one because of what I learned.

 

And I would defend myself with any arm I own.

 

But games are still games. I have taken a variety of defense courses and encourage all to do so. These range form the basic carry classes to know the law, LE level from those who have won fights, FEMA Active Shooter training (Run, Hide, Fight, but also how LE will respond to it and to you if you are fighting) and even an Israeli on dealing with an active shooter (suicide terrorist). Definitely eye-opening, all of them.

 

When I shoot with the police, they always seem to be asking about competition techniques.

 

The technique is really always the same, aim, shoot, then learn to do that faster.

 

Many of them are bad at both the aim and the press part.

[ShadowCatcher]

IPSC turned into a run and gun sport, which to me was very much negative training.  I got a gun so the other S.O.B. would run.

Whether it was a Rhodesian wall (hanging one handed from a rope while standing on a milk carton to shoot the bad guys), or

running and crawling through tunnels, or frankly any another type of game, they all struck me as silly.

 

People did often use a barricade to represent a brick wall every bit as much as a sheet rock wall though, so it was hard to

say good or bad about that.  More important was learning to stand off from the wall to avoid spalling or fragments from the bricks

or putting your firearm in reach of a hidden assailant, not to mention over exposing yourself to shoot. 

 

there are better ways to train.

 

SC

 

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Competitive shooting matches are not training. They are tests along with hopefully being fun.

[Doc Moses]

On 12/12/2024 at 4:40 PM, John Kloehr said:

I think there may also be a gut feeling of being held responsible for unintended consequences (like shooting an unknown hostage) when shooting at a concealed target. Knowing the wall won't stop the bullet but not knowing what (who) else might be behind the wall...

 

A big difference in rules between military engagement and civilian LE.

This is the reason.  We are not military so we cannot shoot what we can't see.  The same reason you use a light on a gun at night...even though it reveals your location. My wife and I live alone so I can shoot through a wall at home. But not when the kids wre little.

[El Chapo]

14 hours ago, ShadowCatcher said:

IPSC turned into a run and gun sport, which to me was very much negative training.  I got a gun so the other S.O.B. would run.

Whether it was a Rhodesian wall (hanging one handed from a rope while standing on a milk carton to shoot the bad guys), or

running and crawling through tunnels, or frankly any another type of game, they all struck me as silly.

 

People did often use a barricade to represent a brick wall every bit as much as a sheet rock wall though, so it was hard to

say good or bad about that.  More important was learning to stand off from the wall to avoid spalling or fragments from the bricks

or putting your firearm in reach of a hidden assailant, not to mention over exposing yourself to shoot. 

 

there are better ways to train.

 

SC

 

 

USPSA and IPSC had a falling out to the point that IPSC really isn't done in this country any more and its divisions are probably not of interest to many Americans.

 

There probably are a small handful of IPSC matches conducted in this country every year but it is an obscure niche within shooting sports, at least in the USA.

 

I'm sure it remains popular elsewhere.

[John Kloehr]

21 hours ago, ShadowCatcher said:

I got a gun so the other S.O.B. would run.

Any run 'n gun puts me at a disadvantage.

 

I got a gun because someone was breaking into my cabin one night.

 

I got a carry permit because I wanted the gun with me when I got home in case someone broke into my cabin while I was gone and I walked in on them

 

Also I can't run which just leaves me hide and fight. Walking in on an intruder eliminates hide.

 

Should an intruder run, I'm good with that.

 

On the way home today, some sort of road rage thing started playing out in traffic. I pulled into the next parking lot entrance. I watched and whatever was going on continued until the two cars were out of sight. Other drivers seemed oblivious to it, I just let it get well out ahead of me. Neither party seemed to be avoiding a confrontation so the only victims would be innocent bystanders. Maybe should have called it in, but both vehicle's operators appeared to consent to the altercation and where not involving others.

 

Sometimes being a good witness is enough.

Edited December 17, 2024 by John Kloehr