From Greenhorn to Gunslinger: How Do You Train for CAS?

[Ya Big Tree]

4 hours ago, The Revenuer said:

Thanks Big Tree, one of these days I might catch up to you! 

 

You're already there my friend... but you'll never catch up in age.

[Burn Through]

Phantom said it best if you have a lot  misses at first its ok ... If you are clean in your first few matches then speed up till ya ain't ... and loading the shotgun seems like it takes me a while so my brother made me some 12 ga shells that cant go bang and i play with them now and then when i see that he or  revenuer is a sneaking up .. but don't tell them I said that ha ha 

[Rip Snorter]

Shoot at a speed where you nearly always hit.  Compare each performance to your previous performance, don't worry about anyone else.  Speed up when your trend and last performance justify it.  You can't miss fast enough to win.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

3 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

Shoot at a speed where you nearly always hit.  Compare each performance to your previous performance, don't worry about anyone else.  Speed up when your trend and last performance justify it.  You can't miss fast enough to win.  

Slow cannot win. 

Never has - never will.

 

Accuracy and speed are not equally valid; accuracy is a technical, repeatable function.

Speed is a mindset and much more difficult to master.

 

Anyone endorsing accuracy over speed will never stand atop the podium.

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

16 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

You can't miss fast enough to win

Evil Roy and Holy Terror were shooting with Badlands Bud. Bud had a miss on stage and still beat them. 

 

Evil Roy says...I guess you can shoot faster than clean. 

 

Phantom 

[Rip Snorter]

Can I roll my eyes?  Never was in that class, most aren't and never will be.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Rip Snorter said:

Can I roll my eyes?  Never was in that class, most aren't and never will be.

True enough.

 

If someone wants to place midpack - they should seek instruction from someone that places midpack.

 

I always looked to the folks in the top 10% for advice.

 

I could still place midpack because of my personal abilities and limitations - but it will NEVER be because I failed to seek out advice from and implement the gear, guns, ammo, practice and mindset of the top shooters (to the best of my personal abilities and limitations).

 

If a shooter aspires to more than they currently are - they have to find where improvements exist.

It is not enough to simply say, "miss less OR shoot faster".

 

Identification of a shooters specific challenge(s) requires an understanding of EVERY component of the game - the observational skills to determine which component(s) are holding a shooter back AND the know how required to implement any fixes required to advance.

 

Yes, shooters of any level "might" have this knowledge - but they would have to be a student of the game; and realistically - most folks willing to work hard enough to acquire the knowledge are the same shooters that move to the top.

Edited December 12, 2024 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Last Call Saul]

Great advice so far!  I agree with Creeker, what's good for gamers is taught by gamers.   

 

I love the speed and smoothness of a well-shot stage and try to get faster, but I don't practice   . That sounds like a controversy, but if I want a buckle, I will buy one, it's cheaper and easier than to win one.  I am in the game to compete against myself, and I decide how much "work" I want to inject into this.  All these "practice, dry fire, How many times a day/week?" sounds like work.   I am very lucky to be within an hour of 4 clubs, and I shoot a match almost every week during the season - this is my practice.  I really like the social part of the game as well.  I've been doing it for 4 seasons, and I am consistently in 20-22 seconds per stage when all works well, and I am happy with that ( I even got a buckle or two...).  I could get faster by practicing transitions and shotgun techniques and not missing a couple of times per match, but meh...

 

I've competed at IDPA, 3-gun, and other shooting sports and left them because of "egos," "equipment wars," and other such issues. The stuff was just too serious and tedious for me. I am shooting CAS to have fun.

Edited December 12, 2024 by Last Call Saul

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 hours ago, Last Call Saul said:

I've competed at IDPA, 3-gun, and other shooting sports and left them because of "egos," "equipment wars," and other such issues. The stuff was just too serious and tedious for me. I am shooting CAS to have fun.

Frankly, sounds like you have an ego... Actually we all do. The sooner folks realize this the quicker we can stop with these kind of comments. 

 

As Badlands Bud once said: If I can't compete I won't have fun. If I don't have fun I won't compete. 

 

Phantom

[KatfishKid]

10 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Slow cannot win. 

Never has - never will.

 

Accuracy and speed are not equally valid; accuracy is a technical, repeatable function.

Speed is a mindset and much more difficult to master.

 

Anyone endorsing accuracy over speed will never stand atop the podium.

 

 

This is purely speculation on my part, as I’m still clueless and have a lot to learn, but it seems to me that accuracy at the distances we’ll be shooting might not be the most challenging aspect. From what I’ve seen, it appears more like a game of point shooting or instinctive shooting rather than precision marksmanship. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the shooters who consistently top the scorecards couldn’t even describe what their front sight looks like because they’re so focused on speed and rhythm. Of course, I could be completely off the mark here. My impression is that as long as I can hit the target, it’s all about recognizing what worked, building muscle memory, and repeating that process as efficiently as possible. It feels like the mental aspect of timing and consistency might play an even bigger role than traditional notions of accuracy.

[Eyesa Horg]

It can be amazing how much air is around those targets!

[KatfishKid]

14 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

It can be amazing how much air is around those targets!

Oh, for sure! As a turkey hunter, I’ve got plenty of experience missing a target at point-blank range with a shotgun—it’s practically a skill at this point! 😂

Missing is just part of the game, but my goal is to get good enough to know exactly why I missed without throwing out excuses. That said, I’m sure I’ll still  be saying the classics like, “The sun was in my eyes… couldn’t see through the smoke… my hands were too sweaty… or maybe the target just moved to spite me!” 🤣

Edited December 12, 2024 by KatfishKid

[Widder, SASS #59054]

7 minutes ago, KatfishKid said:

This is purely speculation on my part, as I’m still clueless and have a lot to learn, but it seems to me that accuracy at the distances we’ll be shooting might not be the most challenging aspect. From what I’ve seen, it appears more like a game of point shooting or instinctive shooting rather than precision marksmanship. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the shooters who consistently top the scorecards couldn’t even describe what their front sight looks like because they’re so focused on speed and rhythm. Of course, I could be completely off the mark here. My impression is that as long as I can hit the target, it’s all about recognizing what worked, building muscle memory, and repeating that process as efficiently as possible. It feels like the mental aspect of timing and consistency might play an even bigger role than traditional notions of accuracy.

 

Test your 'point shooting skills'.

Put a reasonable size target in front of you, lets say about 18 feet in front of you.

 

The purpose of the test is to point your pistol at the target........ NOW, CLOSE YOUR EYES.   And with eyes closed, shoot at that target

5 times.     If you can hit that target with a high degree of shots, you may have some good inherent Point Shooting abilities.

 

Once you have mastered that, now hit that target with eyes closed with 5 shots in about 2 seconds or less.

Once you have mastered that, now go for 3 or 5 separate targets in 2 seconds.....with eyes open.

 

Once you have mastered that, come back to the Wire and share some of your training secrets with the rest of us.....

 

And if you really want to find out more about 'point shooting', try shooting 10 shots, Gunfighter style, on 5 separate targets

with a high degree of hits.

 

There are a few in our game that have excelled in their ability for speed and accuracy...... but I think everyone of them will

tell you to use the front sight.    Thats the point I'm trying to emphasize.

 

Welcome to a great game, with the best of luck in your endeavors.

 

...........Widder (this of course, is just my non-champion opinion.)

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Another thought:

if you're gonna take the time to 'point' the barrel at the target, why not learn to take the same amount of time

learning to 'point the front site'.?

 

..........Widder

 

[KatfishKid]

5 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Test your 'point shooting skills'.

Put a reasonable size target in front of you, lets say about 18 feet in front of you.

 

The purpose of the test is to point your pistol at the target........ NOW, CLOSE YOUR EYES.   And with eyes closed, shoot at that target

5 times.     If you can hit that target with a high degree of shots, you may have some good inherent Point Shooting abilities.

 

Once you have mastered that, now hit that target with eyes closed with 5 shots in about 2 seconds or less.

Once you have mastered that, now go for 3 or 5 separate targets in 2 seconds.....with eyes open.

 

Once you have mastered that, come back to the Wire and share some of your training secrets with the rest of us.....

 

And if you really want to find out more about 'point shooting', try shooting 10 shots, Gunfighter style, on 5 separate targets

with a high degree of hits.

 

There are a few in our game that have excelled in their ability for speed and accuracy...... but I think everyone of them will

tell you to use the front sight.    Thats the point I'm trying to emphasize.

 

Welcome to a great game, with the best of luck in your endeavors.

 

...........Widder (this of course, is just my non-champion opinion.)

 

I anticipate pistols being a challenge for me since they’ve never been my strong suit. That said, I’ve been involved in shooting sports in various forms since I was a kid. My most successful disciplines have been sporting clays and traditional archery, both of which rely heavily on point shooting and instinctive shooting. Over the years, I’ve spent a lot of time honing my natural point of aim and developing an awareness of how my body position, grip, and trigger pull influence my accuracy. While much of what I’ve learned in 30+ years of shooting won’t directly apply to pistols, I have a solid grasp of the basics, which should give me a good foundation to build from. 

[KatfishKid]

15 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Another thought:

if you're gonna take the time to 'point' the barrel at the target, why not learn to take the same amount of time

learning to 'point the front site'.?

 

..........Widder

 

I agree with that 1000% and when I'm showing a new shooter how to hit clays, I stress the importance of focusing on the bead and not the target. That being said, that is not how I shoot. I know when I shoulder my shotgun, it's in the exact same spot it always is, my cheek weld is the same as it always is, my grip is the same as it always is and my body is the same position as it always is. I instinctively know where my shot is going to be when I squeeze off. That being said, the way I shoot may end up being a huge hurdle for me in this game. I may find myself struggling to break habits that just don't transition into this style of shooting. Actually, I'd say that will likely be the case. 

[Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L]

I like your new Avitar. 

[KatfishKid]

5 minutes ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said:

I like your new Avitar. 

Thanks! 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Test your 'point shooting skills'.

Put a reasonable size target in front of you, lets say about 18 feet in front of you.

 

The purpose of the test is to point your pistol at the target........ NOW, CLOSE YOUR EYES.   And with eyes closed, shoot at that target

5 times.     If you can hit that target with a high degree of shots, you may have some good inherent Point Shooting abilities.

 

Once you have mastered that, now hit that target with eyes closed with 5 shots in about 2 seconds or less.

Once you have mastered that, now go for 3 or 5 separate targets in 2 seconds.....with eyes open.

 

Once you have mastered that, come back to the Wire and share some of your training secrets with the rest of us.....

 

And if you really want to find out more about 'point shooting', try shooting 10 shots, Gunfighter style, on 5 separate targets

with a high degree of hits.

 

There are a few in our game that have excelled in their ability for speed and accuracy...... but I think everyone of them will

tell you to use the front sight.    Thats the point I'm trying to emphasize.

 

Welcome to a great game, with the best of luck in your endeavors.

 

...........Widder (this of course, is just my non-champion opinion.)

 

Due to the fact that the targets have gotten bigger and closer over the years I think I point shoot a lot more than I should. I do know that 99% of the time when I miss a pistol target I can't remember seeing the front sight. Point shooting will also bite you when shooting  Texas Star, small knockdown targets and when travel somewhere that has smaller targets farther out. 

 

Randy

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Due to the fact that the targets have gotten bigger and closer over the years I think I point shoot a lot more than I should. I do know that 99% of the time when I miss a pistol target I can't remember seeing the front sight. Point shooting will also bite you when shooting  Texas Star, small knockdown targets and when travel somewhere that has smaller targets farther out. 

 

Randy

You know... Point Shooting doesn't really take away your sight picture...

 

Phantom

[slow poke gear]

I was told just after I started that the shotgun is the hardest and the slowest to master. I will use snap caps to practice reloading the shotgun. My kids and I will set up TV trays in the living room with 8 caps each, and see who is the fastest. We pick different targets or pictures to use, everyone gets to pick different targets for the gruop so it changes. We normally just use monthly shoots to practice rifle and pistol. 

[KatfishKid]

14 minutes ago, slow poke gear said:

I was told just after I started that the shotgun is the hardest and the slowest to master. I will use snap caps to practice reloading the shotgun. My kids and I will set up TV trays in the living room with 8 caps each, and see who is the fastest. We pick different targets or pictures to use, everyone gets to pick different targets for the gruop so it changes. We normally just use monthly shoots to practice rifle and pistol. 

I thought the shotgun was gonna be easy for me, but I've been practicing reloads every night and found that loading the side by side is a challenge. I'll get her down, but I fumble quit a bit. I load directly off the table since I don't have a belt yet.  I've been shooting an over and under for decades and transitioning from an O/U to a SXS is not nearly as easy as I thought it would be. Everything just feels wonky for me right now. 

[Dapper Dave]

I am more a greenhorn than you are, but I'm not here to win any matches, stand on any podiums, I'm just here to have fun. I have only shot one match, and I got a nice pin for it. I'm good with that, and if I get another next match, that's cool. 

Edited December 12, 2024 by Dapper Dave

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

8 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

I am more a greenhorn than you are, but I'm not here to win any matches, stand on any podiums, I'm just here to have fun. I have only shot one match, and I got a nice pin for it. I'm good with that, and if I get another next match, that's cool. 

There's isn't anyone that plays this game that isn't doing it for the fun. 

 

Phantom... And I'll say it again; If I can't compete, I won't have fun. If I don't have fun, I won't compete.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

19 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

There's isn't anyone that plays this game that isn't doing it for the fun. 

 

Phantom... And I'll say it again; If I can't compete, I won't have fun. If I don't have fun, I won't compete.

 

Yep...... its fun for all of us.

There ain't no caddy or new gun prizes for any of us, regardless of finishing position.

 

And if ya watch some of those bonafide JEDI's or BORG's, you'll notice they are having a blast also.

 

..........Widder

 

[KatfishKid]

45 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

I am more a greenhorn than you are, but I'm not here to win any matches, stand on any podiums, I'm just here to have fun. I have only shot one match, and I got a nice pin for it. I'm good with that, and if I get another next match, that's cool. 

You've shot 1 match, so I am more of a greenhorn than you. 😄

[Three Foot Johnson]

I've never been fast, and pushing 70 pretty hard, never will be, so I strive to be mediocre - it's a lot less demanding and not very much practice involved. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

NEWS FLASH:

10 years from now, when you earn a 'P' from shooting a simple 3 plate Nevada Sweep, you'll still feel like a greenhorn.

 

And 15 years from now, you earn a Minor Safety (and a Miss)  because you realize you can't count to TEN...and leave a live round in your rifle.

The word..."greenhorn" will haunt you again.

 

Best regards... to all greenhorns.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[KatfishKid]

34 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

NEWS FLASH:

10 years from now, when you earn a 'P' from shooting a simple 3 plate Nevada Sweep, you'll still feel like a greenhorn.

 

And 15 years from now, you earn a Minor Safety (and a Miss)  because you realize you can't count to TEN...and leave a live round in your rifle.

The word..."greenhorn" will haunt you again.

 

Best regards... to all greenhorns.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

I fully understand what you're saying. I once shot a perfect 12 station match in a sporting clays tournament alongside another competitor in AA class. During the shoot off, we were given a single straight away shot, probably the easiest shot in the game and I didn't touch that clay. Next shot was to be a pair, I was so rattled I fumbled with my gun and when I tried to break the barrels open to replace the fired round, I had a ND into the ground at my feet and got a DQ for the whole match.  Once you get to a certain level you don't think rookie mistakes are possible anymore, next thing you know your egos shattered and people start calling you "Sod buster" 🤣

[Ya Big Tree]

14 minutes ago, KatfishKid said:

I fully understand what you're saying. I once shot a perfect 12 station match in a sporting clays tournament alongside another competitor in AA class. During the shoot off, we were given a single straight away shot, probably the easiest shot in the game and I didn't touch that clay. Next shot was to be a pair, I was so rattled I fumbled with my gun and when I tried to break the barrels open to replace the fired round, I had a ND into the ground at my feet and got a DQ for the whole match.  Once you get to a certain level you don't think rookie mistakes are possible anymore, next thing you know your egos shattered and people start calling you "Sod buster" 🤣

 

Yep! Been there done that. "Potato farmer" here.

[Black Hills Barb]

I have a lot of cowboy friends.  Some practice.  Most do not, and consider monthly matches their practice.  I've never practiced but I did study how to use my guns efficiently and safely.  Maybe if I practiced, I'd be more efficient.  But I choose to simply hold my own and hope to keep enjoying the shooting and my friends for many more years - this will be year 25.

[Shawnee Hills]

@KatfishKid, Longhunter's videos will be a great help (below) as well as those produced by Deadeye Dillard (https://sandcreekraiders.org/video-gallery).  They really helped me when I first started.  Don't just watch them but study their movements and try to recreate it for yourself.  Really pay attention to those that are on the path that you desire and learn from them.  You can learn a lot of dos and don'ts just by studying other shooters.  If you really want motivation, pick out a shooter or two and make it your goal to catch them.  Expect your speed to plateau at some point but keep at it.  You'll break through it in time.

 

The shotgun run can make or break a stage so make practicing with that a priority.  Make yourself up a box or two of  dummy shotshells so you can dryfire without going to the range.  Upon recommendation from a National Champion, the ones that I made consisted of hulls stuffed with toilet paper (lightweight so they simulate an empty hull and don't beat up the wood) with a dense rubber plug for a primer.

 

Speaking of dryfiring, outside of practicing with the shotgun, I find it mind numbingly boring.  Plus, you don't get the recoil feedback while doing so.  I'm lucky enough to have my own home range so that's where I spend my time.  Target sizes range from 4" to 10" and are shot at twice the distance of a normal match.  I typically start with accuracy drills, then speed, and then finish with accuracy again.  Always think "FRONT SIGHT" when shooting.

 

I was a 25-30 second per stage shooter for longer than desired but have finally broken through the 20 second barrier (not always but often enough that I'm calling it a win).  That happened through practice but also with finally getting guns that work for me.  The most difficult was developing the ability to run the rifle fast.  Practice really helped but hitting the right combination of speed parts was as equally important.  Despite what others may tell you, you'll need fast guns to be a contender in many categories.  Of course, that means $$$ but you'll still have much less invested than other competitive sports.

 

Eventually someone will tell you that "if you're not missing occasionally, then you're not shooting fast enough".  They are correct.  Clean stages are great but will set a speed limit for you.  Yes, the goal is to shoot fast and not miss but misses are a part of developing your speed.  Eventually, your accuracy will be good enough to where you can mash the pedal to the floor.  Find that speed limit that results in no (or very few) misses and push it.  Only by testing that limit will you know how fast you can go.  Practicing your accuracy on 4" or 6" targets at longer distances will really help with this.  Even though it sounds weird, I often tell folks that I "let the guns tell me how fast I can run them".  Get to really know your guns and yourself and it works.

 

One of the biggest challenges that I had was getting used to reading a stage and shooting it without earning the dreaded P.  I've been doing this long enough now that I'm seeing the same, or similar, stages that I've shot once before.  I also had to learn to really concentrate on the course of fire in order to avoid mistakes.  I still have a few but they're becoming less of a concern.  Some shooters can pick up the course of fire without trying and you may be one of the lucky ones.

 

Of course, you could ignore the advice in this thread and toss several hundo at Duke for lessons.    That may be cheaper and quicker anyway.  😂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KatfishKid]

@Shawnee Hills I appreciate the time and effort that went into your post. Thanks! Very helpful. And Pay Duke for training? Nah, I'll just creep around the range and take notes....he'll never see a 6'4" 250# sasquatch creepin around 🤣

[Assassin]

On 12/12/2024 at 2:45 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

There's isn't anyone that plays this game that isn't doing it for the fun. 

 

Phantom... And I'll say it again; If I can't compete, I won't have fun. If I don't have fun, I won't compete.

After 28+ years I quit having fun. I still shoot on occasion, most of my friends and my wife have quit. Lack of movement and redundant 10-10-4 stages have ruined it for me. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

11 hours ago, Assassin said:

After 28+ years I quit having fun. I still shoot on occasion, most of my friends and my wife have quit. Lack of movement and redundant 10-10-4 stages have ruined it for me. 

You folks have a great range that allows a lot of movement. Most clubs don't have that luxury unfortunately. 

 

21 years ago... When I started... they still had the Stoopid Stand and Deliver stages... which I too hate.

 

Back in the day at The Cowboys in Norco we set up stages in the morning. Target size and distance hasn't changed that much... But I do see a bit more target arrays that have all the targets at the same height and in a nice perfectly straight line...ugh...

 

Phantom