Question about cigarettes

[Alpo]

On another board they're having a discussion about the cost of smoking. "$9 a pack cigarettes makes it almost $100 a carton. Oh my God how does anybody afford to smoke???"

 

And someone announced that many people were switching over to "native American made cigarettes, that are not taxed".

 

Really?

 

Now my I understanding of tobacco taxes is it depends on where they are sold. Not where there are made or who made them. Where they are sold. Here in Florida, if you go down to the local convenience store, you're probably paying four or five dollars a pack cigarette tax. If you buy them on the military base there is no tax. And they are much much cheaper. And if you buy them at the Indian reservation there is no tax, so they are much much cheaper.

 

But I don't think it matters whether Tonto and Squanto are making them on the back 40, or whether they are buying them from Winston-Salem. As long as they're selling them on the reservation there's no tax, but if they take them off the reservation and try to sell them there's Florida tax.

 

Ain't that the way it works?

 

And another question - are there any Indian made cigarettes?

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Once upon a time there were smugglers who would bring truckloads of NC smokes to the northeast.  I suppose there might be some smugglers of Indian smokes.

 

Just like there are smugglers of NH booze going to NYC.

[Texas Lizard]

Roll your own...

 

Texas Lizard

[Sedalia Dave]

3 hours ago, Alpo said:

On another board they're having a discussion about the cost of smoking. "$9 a pack cigarettes makes it almost $100 a carton. Oh my God how does anybody afford to smoke???"

 

And someone announced that many people were switching over to "native American made cigarettes, that are not taxed".

 

Really?

 

Now my I understanding of tobacco taxes is it depends on where they are sold. Not where there are made or who made them. Where they are sold. Here in Florida, if you go down to the local convenience store, you're probably paying four or five dollars a pack cigarette tax. If you buy them on the military base there is no tax. And they are much much cheaper. And if you buy them at the Indian reservation there is no tax, so they are much much cheaper.

 

But I don't think it matters whether Tonto and Squanto are making them on the back 40, or whether they are buying them from Winston-Salem. As long as they're selling them on the reservation there's no tax, but if they take them off the reservation and try to sell them there's Florida tax.

 

Ain't that the way it works?

 

And another question - are there any Indian made cigarettes?

 

Several years ago the military decided that selling tobacco products below market value encouraged smoking so now tobacco products are priced the same as those sold off post.

 

Same thing happened to gasoline. Off post retailers complained so now gasoline and diesel sold on base is priced not to undercut off base stations.

[Blackwater 53393]

At one time, the Seneca brand of cigarettes was made by a tribe on the reservation in the midwest.

 

They sold for about half the price of major brands.  I tried them back then and they were pretty much equal to a Marlboro.

 

That was back in the early ‘90s when cigarettes here were still $2.00 a pack or less!  I quit in ‘96, about the time they started really getting expensive.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

11 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

At one time, the Seneca brand of cigarettes was made by a tribe on the reservation in the midwest.

 

They sold for about half the price of major brands.  I tried them back then and they were pretty much equal to a Marlboro.

 

That was back in the early ‘90s when cigarettes here were still $2.00 a pack or less!  I quit in ‘96, about the time they started really getting expensive.

I quit when NH smokes were $2 a carton and MA were $4. USAREUR were $1.10.

[Alpo]

56 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

They sold for about half the price of major brands

Did they sell everywhere for that half price, or only on the reservation?

[Ozark Huckleberry]

Depends on the state, how much tax you avoid. And I think non-native buyers have to pay the tax anyway. 
 

I remember being in Washington state, and seeing what I was told were revenue agents in cars waiting just off the reservation, supposedly to intercept non-NA people who had been seen by ‘spotters’ to be buying quantities of cigarettes inside the reservation

[Alpo]

6 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Several years ago the military decided that selling tobacco products below market value encouraged smoking so now tobacco products are priced the same as those sold off post

Well that's one way to make a profit.

 

Cigarettes cost $2 a pack. So there's a dollar a pack profit, and then of course we have the $5 a pack cigarette tax. So cigarettes sell for $8 a pack.

 

On base where there is no cigarette tax, cigarettes sell for $3 a pack - the $2 cost and the $1 profit.

 

But now on base they sell for the same $8 that they sell for off base? Well since they only cost $2, that means the base is now making $6 profit.

 

"Oh, we must do this so that we are not encouraging smoking. It's for the children!!"

 

Suuuuuure.

[Blackwater 53393]

2 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Did they sell everywhere for that half price, or only on the reservation?

To the best of my recollection, they sold all over southern Missouri for a while.  One of my riding partners had relatives involved.

 

Lost touch with all of them nearly twenty years ago.

[Alpo]

Back in the '70s I was a security guard at a motel on the beach. And I would occasionally see a tourist with several cases of cigarettes in his car. And it wouldn't be like a case of Marlboros and a case of Winston. He would have the big box, but it would be a mixed case. Couple of cartons of Winston couple of Marlboro couple of Salem etc. They had driven through North Carolina on their way south to Florida for vacation and bought bunches and bunches of cigarettes because they were so cheap, because there is no tobacco tax in North Carolina. Or at least there was not back then. And then they would drive on down to Florida for vacation and finance their vacation by selling cigarettes to people. And when they pay the quarter a pack they could easily sell them for 50 cents while they were 80 cents in the store.

 

But occasionally they would try to sell some to the wrong person, who would notice there was no tax stamp, and pull out a badge and then they would go to jail.

[John Kloehr]

Many years ago read a report showing a tax difference of only four cents per pack tax was sufficient profit for organized crime to smuggle semi-loads of cigarettes across state lines. This was probably back when packs were in the dollar or two range.

[Rip Snorter]

In NYC, at least years back, the mob could even counterfeit the tax stamp.

[Alpo]

7 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

four cents per pack tax

10 packs a carton - 40 cents

48 cartons in a case - $19.20

???? Cases in a semi truck -

 

 

From the ATF website

 

The financial gain of tobacco trafficking is immediately apparent. For example, purchasing legally taxed products in Virginia (a low excise tax state) for approximately $4.70 a pack and reselling them in New York City (a high excise tax city in a high excise tax state) for approximately $13.50, creates an estimated $8.80 per pack profit margin. In this example, a single carton (10 packs) yields a profit of $88, a single case (60 cartons) yields $5,280, and a single truckload (typically 800 cases) yields $4.2 million.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

Last time I looked, a carton of 200 "legal" cigarettes was over 105.00

Cigarettes from the Rez run about 20 to 25 dollars per 200,

No cigarettes in stores are allowed to be seen and are behind opaque doors.

[Alpo]

I don't know if this is a Florida thing or if now it's a federal thing. But I noticed at Walmart the other day that you have to be 21 to buy cigarettes. Used to be 18. Used to just have to be grown - an adult. Now you have to be 21?

[MizPete]

11 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

That was back in the early ‘90s when cigarettes here were still $2.00 a pack or less!

I quit in 1992.  My last carton (in NC) cost $15.00

[Cypress Sun]

9 hours ago, Alpo said:

10 packs a carton - 40 cents

48 cartons in a case - $19.20

???? Cases in a semi truck -

 

 

From the ATF website

 

The financial gain of tobacco trafficking is immediately apparent. For example, purchasing legally taxed products in Virginia (a low excise tax state) for approximately $4.70 a pack and reselling them in New York City (a high excise tax city in a high excise tax state) for approximately $13.50, creates an estimated $8.80 per pack profit margin. In this example, a single carton (10 packs) yields a profit of $88, a single case (60 cartons) yields $5,280, and a single truckload (typically 800 cases) yields $4.2 million.

 

I remember that a man selling single cigarettes in NYC refused to obey police commands and resisted arrest for selling untaxed cigarettes. He was a big guy and they used a choke hold on him that may, or may not, have been responsible for his death. While being choked out, he stated "I can't breathe". His death ended up starting the entire BLM movement if I remember right. Dying while resisting arrest for untaxed cigarettes....I guess NYC takes their cigarette tax seriously.

 

I don't remember the guy's name but it wasn't Floyd.

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Pennsylvanians who bought cigarettes online hit with liens for unpaid taxes

CRAIG SMITH
Monday, June 15, 2009 12:00 a.m.

Gladys Kramer couldn't believe the price of a carton of cigarettes advertised by an Indian reservation in New York. 

"I'd have to have my head examined not to buy from them," said Kramer, 82, of Butler Township. 

A smoker since her teenage years, she jumped at the chance to buy cigarettes for $14.95 a carton, ordering 133 cartons between May 2006 and December 2008. A carton in Pennsylvania today sells for about $53. 

Kramer was shocked last month to receive a notice from the Butler County Prothonotary's Office saying the state entered a lien against her home of 20 years, to recover $4,583 in unpaid state cigarette taxes, fees and interest.

[watab kid]

i quit in 1970 and have never bought a pack since , but a friend rolls his own for a fraction of the cost , its not much more than y cigars run me over the course of a year 

[Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L]

Neighbor smokes cigarettes purchased from a reservation smoke shop. They are Seneca brand. I looked that up and they are made in New York by the Seneca tribe.

 

 

https://smctobacco.com/smc/

[watab kid]

with the additives in them today id be scared to smoke them , the one that puts them out alone has to be really bad for your lungs , 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

1 hour ago, Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L said:

Neighbor smokes cigarettes purchased from a reservation smoke shop. They are Seneca brand. I looked that up and they are made in New York by the Seneca tribe.

 

 

https://smctobacco.com/smc/

Do they grow their tobacco in NY? Or import it?

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Lucky Strike ("They are toasted") 17 cents a pack over the counter, 20 cents from a machine, a buck and a half a carton.  1961 prices.

 

I quit on New Years day 2000 and figure I've saved enough to buy a Mercedes Benz or a ton of guns since then.  I was smoking 3-4 packs a day at around a dollar a pack.

[Eyesa Horg]

If ya buy a ciggy rolling/filling machine for under $50, not counting that cost, it runs about a dollar a pack to buy the tobacco and filter tubes. At least a couple months ago when I quit!

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Eyesa Horg said:

If ya buy a ciggy rolling/filling machine for under $50, not counting that cost, it runs about a dollar a pack to buy the tobacco and filter tubes. At least a couple months ago when I quit!

 

Congratulations on quitting!!!! I hope you are able to kick it and a few months is a great start!

 

It's been 5+ years and it gets easier as time goes on. The only time that I think about having a cigarette now is when I first get in my vehicle to go somewhere, weird.

 

Stay strong, you'll beat it!

 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

27 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

Congratulations on quitting!!!! I hope you are able to kick it and a few months is a great start!

 

It's been 5+ years and it gets easier as time goes on. The only time that I think about having a cigarette now is when I first get in my vehicle to go somewhere, weird.

 

Stay strong, you'll beat it!

 

 

Thank you! The hardest is when bored or having a beer. One thing for sure is it is easier to quit from home rolled than from Marlboro store brand. Not all the additives and and addictive chemicals. I quit for the wife's sake after she got diaged with COPD. Made it a little more difficult. I've snuck a couple over the last few months, but doing good with it. Thank you for the support. If you've made it 5 years, keep up the good work! The last time I quit, I went 11 years and like an ahole, started again when I retired.

[Cypress Sun]

51 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Thank you! The hardest is when bored or having a beer. One thing for sure is it is easier to quit from home rolled than from Marlboro store brand. Not all the additives and and addictive chemicals. I quit for the wife's sake after she got diaged with COPD. Made it a little more difficult. I've snuck a couple over the last few months, but doing good with it. Thank you for the support. If you've made it 5 years, keep up the good work! The last time I quit, I went 11 years and like an ahole, started again when I retired.

 

When I quit, I had a ton of support from not only close friends, but a lot of people here in the Saloon. It meant a lot to have the support of people who've been there and done that...no matter how many times they've 'done that'. I do have to thoroughly suggest that you don't sneak any more. Throw all of that s*** away except for the lighters. Never know when you might need them, especially in Vermont.

 

I have zero desire to smoke cigarettes at this point. About a year ago, we went to a Florida casino in Tampa. Opened up the door, the damn ashtray smell almost knocked me over. It was right then that I realized how much cigarettes...and me when I was smoking...stunk.

 

I guess, I should not derail this thread any more than I've done already....so....

 

Cigarettes = Death and taxes!

[Alpo]

3 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

The last time I quit

Yeah. Quitting smoking is easy. I quit a dozen times.

 

The last time I quit was about 40 years ago. I have high hopes that I will stay quit.

[Eyesa Horg]

1 minute ago, Alpo said:

Yeah. Quitting smoking is easy. I quit a dozen times.

 

The last time I quit was about 40 years ago. I have high hopes that I will stay quit.

After 40 years, you dang sure better. 

[Alpo]

All it would take is lighting one up.

 

You know, like they say you do in AA - hi. My name is Tom. I'm an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in 3 years.

 

Hi. My name is Alpo. I'm a smoker. I haven't had a cigarette in 40 years.

 

But that doesn't mean that I'm not a smoker. That just means that I have decided I will not smoke anymore. But all it takes is one cigarette and I'm back to a pack a day. You cannot break an addiction. You just decide not to do it.

[Whitey James]

1 hour ago, Alpo said:

All it would take is lighting one up.

 

You know, like they say you do in AA - hi. My name is Tom. I'm an alcoholic. I haven't had a drink in 3 years.

 

Hi. My name is Alpo. I'm a smoker. I haven't had a cigarette in 40 years.

 

But that doesn't mean that I'm not a smoker. That just means that I have decided I will not smoke anymore. But all it takes is one cigarette and I'm back to a pack a day. You cannot break an addiction. You just decide not to do it.

I smoked for 24 years. Tried to quit multiple times and went right back to them. I quit one time for 3 months...After going through the withdrawals and anxiety of quiting, my mind played a trick on me, "you got it beat now, you are no longer addicted! you can have just one" so I went right back to a pack a day habit.

It took a kidney cancer diagnosis for me to finally quit for good 7 years ago.

Took a full year to REALLY get passed all of the cravings and the ritual of smoking. I know that I can never smoke again or I would be instantly back to chain smoking. Some folks are just more genetically prone to addictions.

[John Kloehr]

1 hour ago, Whitey James said:

Took a full year to REALLY get past all of the cravings and the ritual of smoking...

I smoke. Migraine pain. The migraine drugs became worse than smoking. Drugs did give me nearly a decade of relief before I got "rebound" events and the diagnosis became MOU (Medication Over Use). Sucks but I'm still hanging around.

 

My natural smoking rate is two and a half packs a day. Been just over a half pack a day for over a year and under a pack a day for over 30 years. I do feel the addiction, screw giving in!

 

Did learn back when that a year does get one past most relapse opportunities. I did have some extended quits when the migraine drugs were helping. Also learned the physical withdrawal will not end until after 6 months. Did find a research paper on this, it seems there is some breakdown product of nicotine, about 20 steps down the chain, which results in a tiny accumulation of it somewhere in the brain. It is a very tiny amount.

 

At about 6 months after not smoking, the brain runs out of it! This is a deep physical hook and it takes a couple months of smoking to get the level back. But since the accumulation is delayed, waiting on a breakdown product some 20 steps long, most who resume smoking end up at a higher level than before quitting.

 

So I feel it every day, the body crying out for any excuse to feed the addiction. I know it will not stop, I only respond to the migraine pain and not to the ongoing triggers for any excuse to smoke. That would be 5 times what I have got by with for years.

 

When I was a kid before migraine, and even until I was about 18 and had migraine for almost half my life at that age, I was the most non-smoking and anti smoking poster boy you could find. Then one day I found out the smoke was like throwing a wet blanket on a fire. It did not put it out but did knock it down a lot.

 

Since then, I did stop smoking indoors after I found all my stuff stank and was building a yellow layer. Never again smoked indoors. That was 40 years ago. Stopped smoking in cars a bit (a car) at a time, the last being my old hot rod pickup truck when my kid wanted a ride in it. Spent three days detailing it first and have never again smoked in a vehicle. That was over 25 years ago.

 

The addiction sucks and I know what it takes to beat it. Once quit, do your damndest to not even have one! It just extends the craving of that 20th breakdown product. Managing and living with it? I wish it on nobody, wish the triptans still worked for me.

[Rip Snorter]

13 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I smoke. Migraine pain. The migraine drugs became worse than smoking. Drugs did give me nearly a decade of relief before I got "rebound" events and the diagnosis became MOU (Medication Over Use). Sucks but I'm still hanging around.

 

My natural smoking rate is two and a half packs a day. Been just over a half pack a day for over a year and under a pack a day for over 30 years. I do feel the addiction, screw giving in!

 

Did learn back when that a year does get one past most relapse opportunities. I did have some extended quits when the migraine drugs were helping. Also learned the physical withdrawal will not end until after 6 months. Did find a research paper on this, it seems there is some breakdown product of nicotine, about 20 steps down the chain, which results in a tiny accumulation of it somewhere in the brain. It is a very tiny amount.

 

At about 6 months after not smoking, the brain runs out of it! This is a deep physical hook and it takes a couple months of smoking to get the level back. But since the accumulation is delayed, waiting on a breakdown product some 20 steps long, most who resume smoking end up at a higher level than before quitting.

 

So I feel it every day, the body crying out for any excuse to feed the addiction. I know it will not stop, I only respond to the migraine pain and not to the ongoing triggers for any excuse to smoke. That would be 5 times what I have got by with for years.

 

When I was a kid before migraine, and even until I was about 18 and had migraine for almost half my life at that age, I was the most non-smoking and anti smoking poster boy you could find. Then one day I found out the smoke was like throwing a wet blanket on a fire. It did not put it out but did knock it down a lot.

 

Since then, I did stop smoking indoors after I found all my stuff stank and was building a yellow layer. Never again smoked indoors. That was 40 years ago. Stopped smoking in cars a bit (a car) at a time, the last being my old hot rod pickup truck when my kid wanted a ride in it. Spent three days detailing it first and have never again smoked in a vehicle. That was over 25 years ago.

 

The addiction sucks and I know what it takes to beat it. Once quit, do your damndest to not even have one! It just extends the craving of that 20th breakdown product. Managing and living with it? I wish it on nobody, wish the triptans still worked for me.

If something works on chronic pain, and it is not a narcotic, I am all in.  I am not tough enough for "Pain don't matter" anymore.  

[John Kloehr]

2 minutes ago, Rip Snorter said:

If something works on chronic pain, and it is not a narcotic, I am all in.  I am not tough enough for "Pain don't matter" anymore.  

Still kind of a Hobson's choice. Smoking is going to either kill me or contribute to my demise, I know this. Migraine prevented me from living (long live triptans while they worked though). I've been mostly living for some decades now.

 

I was on a lot of other drugs to manage the pain after I ran into MOU, quit all of those (some quite addictive and one had horrible withdrawals without cravings, that one took a couple months) as it was well over a year where I was existing but not living.