Inquiring advise for upgrade my rifle

[Shanghai Slim]

Howdy folks, I'm new to this sport and still have a lot to learn. I'm looking to upgrade my rifle setup. Here's a bit of background: this was my old setup, and please pardon the outlaw red dot—I only used it for Steel Challenge. As a student, when I first got into the sport, I bought a Rossi R92 stainless for $800. It’s a solid, reliable gun, but I’ve found that it’s holding me back from improving. Even though I sent it to PGW for tuning, it lacks a short stroke kit.

 

Now, I’ve decided to get a new rifle. A new 1873, fully tuned, costs around $2,200, which is out of my budget, so that's not an option. Buying a used gun or a factory stock-tuned rifle seems more realistic. I’ve heard the Winchester Miroku 1873 Competition Carbine comes with a sort of short-stroke action, but I haven’t seen any detailed reviews about how it compares to a fully tuned 1873 in terms of action.

 

I’m also considering looking for a used tuned rifle, but I’m concerned that modifications might void the warranty. Could anyone provide advice on choosing between a used tuned rifle or a stock-tuned Winchester Competition Carbine? Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Slim 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Obviously you have discovered there is NO short stroke for the '92.  Any '92.  You are also going to find, there are very few upgrade parts for the Miroku 1873 replica.  However, there is a "set" of "improvement parts" available from Shotgun Boogie Gun Works.  There are a ton of improvement/speed parts available for Uberti 1873 replicas.  There are NO cheap alternatives.  If you want to go really fast, you're going to have to throw money at it in more ways than one.  That Remington replica Cap Gun ain't gonna do anything for your speed either, unless you wanna play "Frontiersman" or "Plainsman."  In those two categories, your '97 will need replaced as well.

 

THEN:

 

After you spend a ton of money for "Go-Fast" guns, you'll need to spend several more tons of money on practice.  Tons of practice.  If you con't mind hanging around with the majority of us, it won't cost near as much but still ain't gonna be cheap by any stretch of the imagination.  Good Luck and don't forget to HAVE FUN doing it. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

A Marlin 94 needs little modifications to make it run well. Might be an option for you.

 

Phantom

[Shanghai Slim]

Thank you for your reply, I know it's a very expensive sport , not like idpa or skeet shooting you could use any gun and be competitive. I do reloading and practice a lot , which is very helpful. Don't tease me for using 1858😂 , I am not over 21 so black powder was my only option. And yeah I got a new CZ sharptail and about to getting rid of my 1897

[Shanghai Slim]

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

A Marlin 94 needs little modifications to make it run well. Might be an option for you.

 

Phantom

Oh nice, does it require any metal milling? In that case I would ask a gunsmith to do it 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, Shanghai Slim said:

Oh nice, does it require any metal milling? In that case I would ask a gunsmith to do it 

Not an expert on the Marlin. Modifications are pretty simple. 

 

Widder is the Expert. Might want to contact him...he's a regular on the Wire.

 

Phantom

[Eyesa Horg]

13 minutes ago, Shanghai Slim said:

Oh nice, does it require any metal milling? In that case I would ask a gunsmith to do it 

A spring kit and a little smoothing can make a Marlin fun. Ellie & I both run JM Marlins, can't speak for the new Ruger Marlins. Let Double Tap know you're looking, he may know if something available near you. You've got a lot of Pards nearby in CT, RI, and Mass.

[Shawnee Hills]

Welcome Slim!

 

Tricked out equipment won't automatically make you a champion in this sport but not having it can prevent you from improving beyond a certain level.  Your mention of past competition experience suggests that you'll eventually be wanting the fastest equipment that you can get.  You should keep that in consideration when making buying decisions.

 

Buying used can be a great way to get geared up . . . so long as you're careful about what you're buying.  Buggered up screw heads are an indicator of an owner not being quite as careful about maintenance as you would like.  The great thing about buying good used equipment is that most, if not all, of the work has already been done for you.  I've found some great deals here in the classifieds but have had some disappointments too.  If not already provided, ask for more pictures and have experienced shooters that have similar competition goals inspect them too.

 

Don't get too tied up in worrying about a warranty.  With the modifications that these rifles need to go fast, you're going to void that right quick anyway.

[John Kloehr]

I have a stock Miroku and a fully slicked Uberti. While there are not many speed parts for the Miroku, it also does not need much beyond detailing. It is about half-stroked from the factory and I am not fast enough for this to matter. I am fast enough to notice the spring which holds the lever against closing the last little bit is too strong.

 

This great thread by a one-thread wonder goes into some of the details:

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Work on your transitions. And then work on them some more.  You can easily shave seconds off your stage times by having flawless transitions. 

 

Second area that will shave multiple seconds off your stage times is don't miss.  Every miss costs you 5 seconds. No matter how fast you can empty a gun you cannot outrun a miss.

 

Third area to save seconds is with your shotgun.  Every time you bobble loading it cost you seconds. Every miss cost you seconds.

 

What all the above amounts to is PRACTICE and lots of it. Are you doing one shot drills? They are a excellent way to practice transitions without expending a lot of ammo. 

[Windy City Kid]

Although I love the quality of the Miroku, every local cowboy gunsmith advised me against due to parts scarcity. I went with a Uberti 1873 Competition, which is short stroked, and somewhat tuned. I had our local smith tune it more and it outruns me now. I could have saved a few and got a standard and added the kit, but it was about break even. I just picked up a used R92 that was slicked by its first owner. Although not near as smooth as my 73, it runs pretty fast and will serve well as a back up. 

[Shanghai Slim]

Thank you Dave, I still have a lot to learn. What is the one shot drill, I could be wrong,is it like Drow the gun from the holster quick aim and fire one shot like idpa?

[BenW]

Slim, I have an 1866 in .45 Colt but switched to an R92.  They can be run pretty fast!  I agree with others here, since you say you're new to the game, spend your time and money on efficiently running the firearms you have, making smoother transitions and more ammo/shooting!  Those will probably help you decrease your time more than spending more money on guns at this point.  Of course, how you decide to go forward is entirely up to you.  Good luck and have fun!

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, Shanghai Slim said:

Thank you Dave, I still have a lot to learn. What is the one shot drill, I could be wrong,is it like Drow the gun from the holster quick aim and fire one shot like idpa?

 

Idea is to practice target acquisition and transitions. Take any stage from a match and shoot the scenario like you normally would.  Now do it again but instead of shooting 5 rounds from each pistol, 10 from the rifle and 4 from your shotgun. Fire one round from each pistol and one from the rifle. For your shotgun because reloads are important, fire one round, reload and then fire a second round. 

For example, 

If shooting a double; load 2, fire one round, shuck both shells, load two more, and again only fire one.

If shooting a 97 and you pull two shells at a time then you would load and fire one of the two shells, drop the second and then grab 2 more and again only fire one. If you only grab one at a time then you should still fire two shells to see how long it takes you to reload.

 

The purpose of doing this is to show you how much time you spend on target acquisition, transitioning from one firearm to the next, and the time spent loading your shotgun. Now look at your split times, This is the time you spent doing actions other than pulling the trigger. Bet you'll be surprised how much of your total stage time is spent not pulling the trigger. 

 

The goal is to make your transitions more efficient. The top shooters got that way because they don't waste time on unnecessary movements.

 

You can practice this at home without firing a shot. Use your phone's countdown timer and practice going the one shot drill on a stage but dry fire each firearm one time. Set the time for how many seconds you think it will take you to do that stage. Start the timer and run through the stage. Did you finish before the timer went off? If so, reduce the time and do it again. If not increase the time until you can do it before the times runs out. Then work on reducing your total time.

Practice different scenarios taken from the monthly matches you attend.  Mix up the gun order to include split shotgun and split pistol scenarios.

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Long hunter Has some good videos on transitions.

 

Here is one of them. You can easily find the others.

 

 

[Blackwater 53393]

The one shot drill is used to work on transitions, moving from one gun to the next.  
 

You can set up a target sequence that uses all four guns, just like you’d encounter in a regular stage. You can add movement if you wish, or start out with just one position. If you’re short on space or can’t get to the range, this can be done without ammo in your living room to start with, but live fire is best.

 

You load one round it the rifle, (this gets you used to re-staging the rifle open and empty) pistols loaded and holstered, (you can load five like normal and safely reholster because you’re holstering the gun with the hammer down on a discharged cartridge) and the shotgun staged open and empty.

 

A timer is helpful here, but not required.

 

Decide on a shot sequence, (rifle, pistol, shotgun, pistol for example) and then smoothly perform the sequence, firing each gun one time and moving to the next.  I said smoothly because it is more important in the beginning to be smooth. The speed will come naturally as you get used to making the transitions. 
 

I run the same stage five times, (that lets me empty the pistols) and then evaluate my progress. Then I reload the pistols and try a different sequence if I was comfortable with my progress on the completed scenario. A timer can really aid in checking your progress and you can find numerous “shot timer” apps on your phone.

 

If I’m practicing with a double barrel shotgun, I’ll load two and fire both because that’s what I’ll normally do in competition. Be sure to mix up the gun sequence so that you’re clearing the long guns properly between transitions.

 

You can take notes and check split times between shots to find where you need improvement and what you’re doing that works best.

 

This overlaps what Sedalia Dave posted above. I think if you combine what we both offered, you’ll see marked improvements quickly.

 

 

 

 

[Chantry]

Here is a link to some Do It Yourself for rifle, pistol & shotgun:  http://marauder.homestead.com/irons.html

 

There are also a lot of YouTube videos out there.  Just remember in most cases you do not want to remove metal, just polish it.

 

Also Wolff gunsprings:  http://www.gunsprings.com/  just swapping out a gun spring can make a real difference.

 

 

 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

You are too hung up on the necessity for a short stroke.  You are new and young.  The short stroke will not suddenly make you a better shooter.  That is down the road a bit.  I picked up a new Ruger Marlin a month ago with the intent to do an article for the Chronicle.  I picked it up for just a tad less than $1K.  Shotgun Boogie lives close to me so I purchased his tune-up kit and installed it.  The difference was beyond belief.  I shot it in a two day match this weekend and it functioned perfectly and turned in some decent times.  So for $1K and $100 dollars worth of speed parts you will have a gun that will last for decades and a lot of people use them quite successfully.  Here is just one photo out of over a hundred that I shot showing the trigger group coming out of the gun to install some of the speed parts.  In the photo you can see the screw shaped plug that replaces the safety button.  Not necessary for speed but it looks nice.

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[John Kloehr]

With the Miroku, brand new, clean it, inspect it carefully. Cycle it like a 100 times, tear it down and gently (gently by hand, no Dremel) de-burr any points showing wear.

 

Queue up all of Clint's Spaghetti Westerns and binge watch while cycling the rifle slowly. No hurry, this will be some hours of looking for costuming suggestions. Once in a while, dry fire it. Bonus for using snap caps!

 

Tear it down and clean and oil it again. The only problem with it at this point is likely to be having to squeeze the lever shut to fire. Over 10 rounds, this may add up to 5 seconds. Still probably worth changing that spring. I have one sitting in my project box I have not yet installed.

 

I finally got to a shoot last month and was getting 60+ second stage times when the top shooters were under 20. The spring change will become a priority when those 5 seconds will make a real difference. I may do it sooner, but there is clearly somewhere else for me to get 30 seconds which has nothing to do with my equipment. Well, I was using a '97 shotgun with less than a box of practice but that is not the cause.

 

Practice is key for marksmanship, but transitions in this sport also matter a great deal.

 

Separately... I do have a nice slicked 1873 rifle in .38 Special. It is a pleasure to run. But again, this is not where good stage times will come from. I do plan to use it at some point just for comparison, but do think it is only going to be worth 5 seconds at best.

 

But also want to note I handled a Rossi 1892 at a convention some years back. Besides things like the finish on the stock being not impressive, I found the gun to be abysmal from a competition standpoint. It was rough, tough, almost fought me to cycle it. It would have needed a lot of work. Maybe some previous person at the convention screwed it up, but the Miroku feels best out of the box, and the Uberti is close. With slicking, I think the Uberti 1873 wins. But the Miroku 1873 is so close without it.

 

As to short stroke, some top shooters don't do it; there is a trade-off between length of stroke and effort of stroke. This is likely more an individual taste with no one answer for everyone. I have no doubt a good shooter with a great gun trading with me will still rub my nose in "it" at the end of a stage.

 

Equipment does matter, but not as much as one might hope. Shoot more! That is my current struggle. At least half of my stage time has absolutely nothing to do with my equipment.

[Shawnee Hills]

22 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

there is a trade-off between length of stroke and effort of stroke.

The new short stroke kits seem to have the geometry figured out to minimize this.   I never noticed a difference when I switched my rifles from 3rd gen to 5th.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Smooth / reliable equipment is vital to enjoying this game. If all you want to do is dress up and fart around with some old guns...or replicas of them...maybe not so much.

 

Don't let anyone tell you differently. You need smooth running firearms...I know of no one that's a top shooter these days that doesn't have a Short Stroke mod if they're shooting a 73. 

 

So all these folks are talking abut transitions...yes, efficient transitions...choreographing your stage...essential to good stage times. But if your firearms are running like crap you'll be heavily distracted. 

 

If the stage designs were like those in the 90's, the 92 would be okay. They are basically obsolete for the game now. Sure, you can start with one. But if you want to be competitive outside of a club match consisting of a whole 10 shooters, you'll be trading up...again, don't let anyone tell you differently.

 

Lastly, you can always sell the guns that you end up not caring much for...you won't lose that much money doing it.

 

Phantom

PS: Lastly, don't trust folks just because they might have a low SASS number. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

2 hours ago, Shawnee Hills said:

The new short stroke kits seem to have the geometry figured out to minimize this.   I never noticed a difference when I switched my rifles from 3rd gen to 5th.

I did, and went back to third gen in my .44-40. It’s all very subjective. A third gen kit is miles ahead of a stock rifle. 5th gen vs 3rd not so much - at least not for me. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

Back when I was coaching HS football a common challenge I faced was the ‘It’s only practice I’ll do it right during the game’ mentality. No, you will play the way you practice whether consciously or not.

 

If you practice with inferior equipment then all the little tics and compensatory moves you pick up to deal with that equipment will carry forward if/when you upgrade to top tier stuff. For example, if the rifle you practice with has a strong lever safety spring that requires you to wrap your thumb in order to overcome the spring pressure then you will develop the bad habit of wrapping your thumb.

 

If your shotgun has to be pulled open you’lll develop the habit of keeping your off hand on the forearm rather than letting it fall open while grabbing shells.

 

It’s a lot easier to start with a blank slate and develop good habits than it is to try to overcome ingrained bad habits.

[Three Gun Cole]

I would recommend a Winchester 1873  with a short stroke by Cowboy Carty.

 

Great gun, extremely reliable.  Faster than most shooters.

 

(Winchester, not unerti)