COACH GUNS

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

A little after Thanksgiving Trivia on a Quiet Saturday.

 

Coach Guns.  With all the recent postings about Coach Guns, I thought it might be of interest to note, "COACH GUNS" are not a product of the American West nor of the Frontier.  I had reason to commune extensively with the Wells Fargo Historical offices sever Lustrum ago.  Wells Fargo nor Overland purchased shotguns for issue to their employee.  When Hired, riding guards were expected/required to provide their own weapons.  Unless the individual Hire cut his personal shotgun, those Stagecoach Guards were armed with standard off the shelf shotguns of 12 or 10 gage.  28 inch barrels were the norm. 

 

Actual "COACH GUNS" are an English item.  Purpose built from the late 18th Century (Real short Flintlock smoothbore) thru to the industrial revolution, to include Rail Coaches carrying the Royal Mail and Bank Funds.  The "Coach Guns" were constantly "improved" over time, to include Cap Locks then Hammer Double cartridge guns and a few Box Lock guns.

 

"Coach Guns" as wee know them are mostly the product of Hollyweird and a smattering of actual criminals who used a hacksaw to make "saw'd off shotguns" to conceal under a duster or sack coat.  Sorta like gunfights in the street at High Noon.  Dime novel type stuff.

["Big Boston"]

10 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

A little after Thanksgiving Trivia on a Quiet Saturday.

 

Coach Guns.  With all the recent postings about Coach Guns, I thought it might be of interest to note, "COACH GUNS" are not a product of the American West nor of the Frontier.  I had reason to commune extensively with the Wells Fargo Historical offices sever Lustrum ago.  Wells Fargo nor Overland purchased shotguns for issue to their employee.  When Hired, riding guards were expected/required to provide their own weapons.  Unless the individual Hire cut his personal shotgun, those Stagecoach Guards were armed with standard off the shelf shotguns of 12 or 10 gage.  28 inch barrels were the norm. 

 

Actual "COACH GUNS" are an English item.  Purpose built from the late 18th Century (Real short Flintlock smoothbore) thru to the industrial revolution, to include Rail Coaches carrying the Royal Mail and Bank Funds.  The "Coach Guns" were constantly "improved" over time, to include Cap Locks then Hammer Double cartridge guns and a few Box Lock guns.

 

"Coach Guns" as wee know them are mostly the product of Hollyweird and a smattering of actual criminals who used a hacksaw to make "saw'd off shotguns" to conceal under a duster or sack coat.  Sorta like gunfights in the street at High Noon.  Dime novel type stuff.

 

I appreciate your research, it can be frustrating. I researched for the single shot shotgun, break action, and it also likely never existed. I have a hard time believing that, but according to the internet, no one has posted any information. I think it was used, just too mundane to be in any picture or mentioned. 

 

SxS shotguns were also available in 8 gauge back in the day, if my info is fact. 

 

BB

[Sedalia Dave]

2 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

I appreciate your research, it can be frustrating. I researched for the single shot shotgun, break action, and it also likely never existed. I have a hard time believing that, but according to the internet, no one has posted any information. I think it was used, just too mundane to be in any picture or mentioned. 

 

SxS shotguns were also available in 8 gauge back in the day, if my info is fact. 

 

BB

 

Sears & Roebuck Catalogs are a great source of historical info. The first catalog as we know it was published in 1895

 

PDF of the 1897 Catalog https://www.hursthistory.org/uploads/1/0/7/0/107013873/sears_catalog_ppt.pdf

 

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

My shootin' buddy Coffinmaker gots hisself a brandy-new Coach Whip 12Ga Hammer Double Shotgun!!!

Can't wait to shoot it!!

 

 

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Pretty gun!

[Rye Miles #13621]

I always thought the term "coach gun" came from a shotgunner on a stagecoach. I remember reading a long time ago in True West or Old West magazine that actually a shotgun rider would have preferred a long barrel to protect him and the driver from thieves. Makes sense to me! I would think you'd want to reach out as far as you could with Double 00 buck! Short barrels don't have much distance.

Edited December 1, 2024 by Rye Miles #13621

[John Kloehr]

My understanding agrees coach guns were English for security use in rail cars. But this is SASS, so I guess anything Hollywood did fits the definition of "historically accurate."

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

My understanding agrees coach guns were English for security use in rail cars. But this is SASS, so I guess anything Hollywood did fits the definition of "historically accurate."

I don’t believe SASS is intended to be historically accurate, though there is certainly room under the tent for those who choose to be so.

 

Fantasy my friend. Cosplay with real guns.

Edited December 1, 2024 by Captain Bill Burt

[Uncle Ethan # 94321]

So, I guess we can think Hollywood for the Coach Gun. Now if I could only find the 15 shot no miss revolvers.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 minute ago, Uncle Ethan # 94321 said:

So, I guess we can think Hollywood for the Coach Gun. Now if I could only find the 15 shot no miss revolvers.

Be very careful!  It is easy to confuse those revolvers with the 20-shot no hit guns!

[Cholla]

I paged through my copy of the Sears catalog. In 1897, they were not offering any shotgun with barrels shorter than 26 ". Most were 28, 30, or 32". Merwin Hulbert did offer a rifle/shotgun combo. The barrels had to be swapped for use, and each was single-shot, break-open.

[Sedalia Dave]

On 11/30/2024 at 4:51 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Sears & Roebuck Catalogs are a great source of historical info. The first catalog as we know it was published in 1895

 

PDF of the 1897 Catalog https://www.hursthistory.org/uploads/1/0/7/0/107013873/sears_catalog_ppt.pdf

 

 

 

Here is a link to the catalog #107  I believe this was the Fall / Winter 1898 catalog.  This is a complete catalog and not just a few pages.

 

Sporting goods starts on page 352.

 

https://archive.org/details/consumersguideno00sear/page/7/mode/1up?view=theater

 

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Sedalia Dave

["Big Boston"]

On 11/30/2024 at 4:51 PM, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Sears & Roebuck Catalogs are a great source of historical info. The first catalog as we know it was published in 1895

 

PDF of the 1897 Catalog https://www.hursthistory.org/uploads/1/0/7/0/107013873/sears_catalog_ppt.pdf

 

 

 

Thanks for that link to the sears catalog. No single shot break action shotguns in that one. It seems like the SxS was cheap enough that the single shot only came into being much later, with the introduction of the Winchester model 37. Personally, I find that a bit hard to believe. Logically a company making SxS shotguns would also make and sell a cheaper single shot. 

 

Regardless of the actual history, a hammer SxS Coach is on my list. How well has the Heritage CoachWhip worked for cowboys?

 

BB

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

BB,

 

Nadia Clue.  My sample example is the first I have heard of anyone actually getting one.  I don't get to play with mine until the middle of the Month.  I be getting well excited for new Hammer Double you betcha.  Stay Tuna!!

 

[Rough 'N Ready Rob]

I have never understood why they called them coach guns, maybe Bar guns or Bank guns, handy for close up work. I'm sure the guys riding shotgun on the coach wanted long barrels to keep the bad guys as far away as they could.

   Yes there are 8 ga. shotguns. I have never seen one but I do have a couple 8 ga. shells, one is a slug, I think they called it a door buster.

Rob

[Sedalia Dave]

3 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

Thanks for that link to the sears catalog. No single shot break action shotguns in that one. It seems like the SxS was cheap enough that the single shot only came into being much later, with the introduction of the Winchester model 37. Personally, I find that a bit hard to believe. Logically a company making SxS shotguns would also make and sell a cheaper single shot. 

 

Regardless of the actual history, a hammer SxS Coach is on my list. How well has the Heritage CoachWhip worked for cowboys?

 

BB

 

The first link I posted was not a complete catalog. Just select pages. The second link I posted (see below) is the complete catalog. Single shot shotguns start on page 361.  There are a bunch of them.  

 

12 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Here is a link to the catalog #107  I believe this was the Fall / Winter 1898 catalog.  This is a complete catalog and not just a few pages.

 

Sporting goods starts on page 352.

 

https://archive.org/details/consumersguideno00sear/page/7/mode/1up?view=theater

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Sedalia Dave

[Erasmus]

On 12/1/2024 at 8:22 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don’t believe SASS is intended to be historically accurate, though there is certainly room under the tent for those who choose to be so.

 

Fantasy my friend. Cosplay with real guns.

 

SASS is not intended to be historically accurate, it's not reenactment; it's a shooting discipline with a cosplay element. NCOWS however... 

 

That said, there's no NCOWS near me and I personally enjoy the history that can be had with SASS, so I trend more towards historically accurate. Besides I like being able to use my 30 inch hammer double and 7.5 inch cap guns as excuses for me being so slow! Some day I'll pick up an 1860 clone...

[watab kid]

thats purty , who made that one ? 

["Big Boston"]

22 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

The first link I posted was not a complete catalog. Just select pages. The second link I posted (see below) is the complete catalog. Single shot shotguns start on page 361.  There are a bunch of them.  

 

 

 

So, they really did exist. Here's mine. A Hiawatha, MacLeods Hardware store brand made by Cooey. 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

WATAB,

 

Dunno.  Marketed by "Heritage" but I haven't had a chance to take it apart yet to see who the actual manufacturer is.  It does have Turkish Walnut furniture though. 🤠

Edited December 3, 2024 by Colorado Coffinmaker

[watab kid]

7 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

WATAB,

 

Dunno.  Marketed by "Heritage" but I haven't had a chance to take it apart yet to see who the actual manufacturer is.  It does have Turkish Walnut furniture though. 🤠

let us know when you figure it out , i didnt know heritage was into shotguns , very nice looking shotgun ,