Reloading issues -- looking for ideas

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

4 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

The Hornady One Shot is worth EVERY penny spent on it. It saves so much effort sizing the brass. It really doesn’t add any time but the effort it saves is more than worth it. 

I don't have any trouble, or seem to use much effort, on the sizing step (the ram going up) on the Dillon 750 with carbide dies.  Of course I must use lube when I reload with steel dies -- I don't think that is even possible without using case lube.  The entire problem here is the sticking at the top of the ram's stroke with the "pop" as many call it, when the case breaks free of the the powder funnel.  That causes powder to pop out of the cases at the next two stages and makes a mess, as well as the obviously problem that the powder charge is no longer accurate.  It also occasionally causes the next primer to jump out of its seating cup and disappear to the shop floor, sometimes without me noticing that it has gone AWOL.  All of these issues are well described by others too.  Fingers are crossed for the Mighty Armory Flare Funnel doing what the company says it does and more importantly, doesn't do, namely, STICK!

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Just now, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

Your only talking about 100 pieces of brass…

What type of dirt could be on the empty brass that would harm carbide dies?

Just make sure to shake all of the loose dirt off of them.

 

Just thought this would be a quick and easy way to test. In the time you and I have posted you could have had results.

Well, sort of.  I've already spent some time polishing the brass "color" off of the land portion of the flaring funnel.  So, first I'd have to run as many wet-tumbled cases through until it starts popping again.  Exactly how many cases it would take to get there, I can't really say.  All I know is that once it starts happening, then I'd have to run the 100 dirty cases through to see if they stick, too.  Still pretty simple, you're right, but in the end what is to be learned?  If the dirty cases stick, I'm back at Square One.  And if they don't stick, so what?  While I might have learned that dirty brass doesn't stick, I'm not likely going to reload dirty brass no matter what, so I'd still be stuck at that same Square One, needing to find a solution that will let me reload clean brass, and hopefully without lube, just as carbide dies are intended to be used.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

10 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

I don't have any trouble, or seem to use much effort, on the sizing step (the ram going up) on the Dillon 750 with carbide dies.  Of course I must use lube when I reload with steel dies -- I don't think that is even possible without using case lube.  The entire problem here is the sticking at the top of the ram's stroke with the "pop" as many call it, when the case breaks free of the the powder funnel.  That causes powder to pop out of the cases at the next two stages and makes a mess, as well as the obviously problem that the powder charge is no longer accurate.  It also occasionally causes the next primer to jump out of its seating cup and disappear to the shop floor, sometimes without me noticing that it has gone AWOL.  All of these issues are well described by others too.  Fingers are crossed for the Mighty Armory Flare Funnel doing what the company says it does and more importantly, doesn't do, namely, STICK!

Have you tried lubed cases in carbide? If you haven’t, you don’t realize how much effort it would save. And it works for all calibers. Not just the one the funnel does…

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

So, lots of folks here and elsewhere say that the problem is nonexistent for dusty-dirty-on-the-inside brass, and occurs when using brand new brass or with squeaky-clean-inside-and-out-and-non-carwaxed wet tumbled brass.  OK, fair enough.  I wet tumble with steel pins, dish detergent and a touch of citric acid, and I can shave in the mirror shine of my brass. 

I guess the question for Dillon is this: "Is it really true that reloading 9mm (and other short brass) works smoothily on a Dillon 750 only with dusty-dirty-on-the-inside brass?"

Boggus Deal's idea is a good one -- I think.  Doesn't the 1050 expand the case at another earlier stage before the powder drop stage?  If so, that's why there's a "powder activator" rather than a flare funnel at the powder drop.  I've read one guy said that when he did the suggested swap, his bullets didn't reliably seat straight up and down on the 750 because the cases were belled but not expanded at all.

And there's this -- from a 2017 post in Brian Enos's Forums:

I wonder if they still offer that service. 

 

That modified expander is what I described. You can do yourself as long as you have a way to spin the expander. BTW it will not fit in a 1/2 chuck.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

6 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

That modified expander is what I described. You can do yourself as long as you have a way to spin the expander. BTW it will not fit in a 1/2 chuck.

I figured out straight away that it will not fit in my 1/2" chuck.  The only lathe I have access to is a 3-hour drive.  Oh well.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

12 minutes ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Have you tried lubed cases in carbide? If you haven’t, you don’t realize how much effort it would save. And it works for all calibers. Not just the one the funnel does…

Maybe I'll give it a try.  It can't hurt too much.  

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

8 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

The problem you are describing, sticking on the down stroke is a known occurrence when the powder drop/expander die pops off of new or steel pin cleaned brass.

 

Brass that is cleaned in a dry tumbler leaves a coating on the inside of the case that makes it slip off of the expander die easier.

 

If the test proved me correct I wasn’t suggesting that you always run dirty brass only that this is a know issue and this would prove the theory.

 

You could then move on to a solution to your issue as you would then know the cause.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Just now, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Maybe I'll give it a try.  It can't hurt too much.  

Won’t “hurt” anything. And it will save your shoulder and elbow some effort. 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

1 minute ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

The problem you are describing, sticking on the down stroke is a known occurrence when the powder drop/expander die pops off of new or steel pin cleaned brass.

 

Brass that is cleaned in a dry tumbler leaves a coating on the inside of the case that makes it slip off of the expander die easier.

 

If the test proved me correct I wasn’t suggesting that you always run dirty brass only that this is a know issue and this would prove the theory.

 

You could then move on to a solution to your issue as you would then know the cause.

I have no doubt that everyone who says so is correct -- the cause is squeaky-clean-wet-tumbled-with-steel-pins brass.  But that's what I use, so I am on the prowl for a solution that still allows me to use squeaky-clean-wet-tumbled-with-steel-pins brass.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

It is just so odd, going back to the beginning, that this is ONLY an issue for me with 9mm.  Loading 357Mag and 45Colt, no problems, couldn't be easier, smoother, could hardly take any less effort, blah blah blah.  But after everything I've read in the last couple of days, there it is -- a problem with reloading 9mm, specifically.  Anyway, thanks to everyone for reading along and offering advice and ideas and suggestions -- that what I asked for.  I'm on the right track.  I think the Mighty Armory replacement flare funnel, with Hornady One-shot lube if necessary, will cure what's troubling me.

Sayonara for now.

[Eyesa Horg]

Even with carbide dies,the effort to move the lever is quite noticeable with lube compared to not. Granted I'm using an SDB, but if I need to grab an unlovedUNLUBEDbrass for whatever reason, it's amazingly noticeable more effort to resize. A can of One shot goes a long ways. Just be sure to shake the can first. Try it, you might like it!

[Sedalia Dave]

9 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Even with carbide dies,the effort to move the lever is quite noticeable with lube compared to not. Granted I'm using an SDB, but if I need to grab an unlovedUNLUBEDbrass for whatever reason, it's amazingly noticeable more effort to resize. A can of One shot goes a long ways. Just be sure to shake the can first. Try it, you might like it!

 

My elbow loves it when I use Hornady 1 Shot when I'm reloading pistol caliber brass.  For rifle calibers I use Imperial Sizing wax.

[Griff]

Just be sure you get the Hornady One Shot CASE lube. Red can w/black cap.  The black can w/red cap is gun cleaner & lube.  Different formula.

[Mogollon Munk,SASS#303]

On dry-tumbled cases, there is usually a bit of carbon residue left on the inside of the case. This acts as a lubricant on the expander funnel. Because 9mm is a shorter case, you are pulling it off the funnel sooner, where the handle motion has less mechanical leverage. On taller cases you are pulling the case off the funnel later during the handle upstoke, with more mechanical leverage.  If you wet tumble, try switching to a car wash soap with the car wax in it. This residual car wax acts as a lubricant on the funnel. 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

7 hours ago, Mogollon Munk,SASS#303 said:

On dry-tumbled cases, there is usually a bit of carbon residue left on the inside of the case. This acts as a lubricant on the expander funnel. Because 9mm is a shorter case, you are pulling it off the funnel sooner, where the handle motion has less mechanical leverage. On taller cases you are pulling the case off the funnel later during the handle upstoke, with more mechanical leverage.  If you wet tumble, try switching to a car wash soap with the car wax in it. This residual car wax acts as a lubricant on the funnel. 

 

MM, I do not understand your explanation.  On a Dillon 750 press -- and all presses that have a swinging compound linkage -- the point of greatest mechanical advantage, which is what I think you mean by "mechanical leverage", is greatest at the top of the ram's stroke.  It is designed that way because that's where all of the magic happens, that is, where all of the hard work gets done on the brass cases.  There is very little need for much mechanical advantage where the shell plate is simply traveling up and down with the cases not inserted into any dies.  To the contrary, in that "bottom and middle" zone, you get more shell plate travel per degree of handle rotation than at the top of the ram's stroke, but with much less mechanical advantage; in other words, you trade away power for speed.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

FINAL UPDATE AND THANK YOU --

 

I got the Mighty Armory 9mm flare funnel set up and running fine yesterday in the powder die.  MA has turned down the OD of the tip portion of the expander section, not quite as much as what Starline used to offer to do, but the same idea.  It greatly reduced the case sticking problem and mostly eliminated the "Dillon hiccup."  Oddly, though, if there was any other difference in how the 750 was running, I would say that it made operating that one-arm bandit a bit harder, not easier as I had expected.  I have no idea why, but clearly the profile of the upper part of the expander just below the transition to the flaring cone section has something to do with it.  So, I then took the plunge and ran another batch of my super-clean wet-tumbled once-fired mixed headstamp range brass with a spritz of Hornady One-Shot into a box of the brass while shaking and then letting it dry for a minute before tossing it into the casefeeder hopper.  All I can say is WOW -- I really didn't expect such a dramatic difference, but I've never before experienced such easy and smooth running of the press when loading any of the calibers I load.  So, to those who told me to use HOS even with my carbide die sets, THANK YOU.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Sounds like you’re good to go? If you still have issues you might try using Armor All Wash and Wax instead of dish detergent. The ‘Wax’ component seems to act as a lube on my squeaky clean wet tumbled brass.

[Go West]

I spray my case lube in the case feeder and let the mixing spread it around. I use it on all my cases run in my 650 and appreciate the lessened effort especially on runs of 1K or more. It really helps on brand new brass and yes, I do use carbide dies (Lee). I dry tumble with paint thinner and NuFinish. I don't notice dry powder residue unless I leave a batch in the media after tumbling.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I just did some measuring to better understand why the machine runs harder with the Mighty Armory flare funnel.  First, the stock Dillon funnel's expanding portion, which extends all the way to the flaring funnel transition, measures about 0.353".  The reduced diameter tip portion of the MA funnel, which extends about halfway to the flaring funnel transition, measures about 0.351".  So, the part that reaches deepest into the case is a couple of thousandths smaller; I think that is the area that causes the Dillon hiccup with 9mm brass.  BUT here's the interesting part: the other portion of the MA part, between the reduced diameter portion and the flaring funnel transition, measures about 0.358" -- creating considerably larger expansion of the case at the mouth end.  That's why it is harder to run the handle down.  But Hornady One-Shot really eliminates all of that that extra effort.  That said, I'll still try the Armor All Wash & Wax product in my next wet tumbler run, as well.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Just loaded a bunch of 9mm on the 650 yesterday using just the Dillon tapered powder funnel. A spritz of Hornady One Shot with no catch, no hiccup, no problem whatsoever. A bullet feeder would be quite handy though.