Reloading issues -- looking for ideas

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I reload decent volumes of 9mm, 357Mag and 45Colt on my Dillon XL750.  The machine runs smooth as room temperature butter when loading the 357 and 45.  But I have two problems when I load 9mm; neither is totally uncommon, but both are a PITA and I wonder why they happen only with 9mm and whether there is something I can do to eliminate them.

First, I get brass lines building up on the powder drop / expander die, which makes getting the 9mm cases off that die a chore.  I have to lightly polish the funnel and apply a tiny bit of case lube to it every hundred rounds or so to avoid a really hard time raising the handle.  Why does this happen on the 9mm die and no other?  Is it fixable?

Second, ONLY when loading 9mm, the cases do not always seat all the way into the shell plate, or maybe back out a tiny fraction of an inch when the pushing wedge retracts, or, more often, the case is tipped maybe a degree or so.  When this happens, the case cannot enter the sizing die.  I have to stop, reach in with my left hand, and tip the case toward the center before I can proceed.  Again, this NEVER happens with 357 or 45 cases.  Why does it happen and is there something I can do to reduce its frequency or eliminate it altogether?

Thanks for idea/comments/suggestions in advance, and Happy Thanksgiving!

[Eyesa Horg]

I don't actually know what the answers are, but on the case sticking to the expander, try using Hornady One Shot as a case lube. They say to hit the inside of the the necks with a light shot and it won't foul the powder. Could the other issues be attributable to the brand of brass?

Edited November 28 by Eyesa Horg
Fricken otto

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I use carbide dies specifically because I don't want to bother using case lube for the high-volume calibers I load.  (Of course I use lube for reloading on steel dies on my single stage press.) 

i literally touch the solid lube with a fingertip, and hold that fingertip against the powder drop funnel while spinning the die with the other hand.  It is quick and it works fine and doesn't foul the powder at all.  I just don't want to have to do it every hundred rounds.

These things happen with all brands of brass as far as I can tell.  I reload mixed once-fired range brass plus my own multiply-loaded brass after it gets shot.

I should also point out that the lines of deposited brass form only on the "straight wall" portion of the expanding die; there is never any residual brass on the conical portion.

[Texas Maverick]

I have two suggestions. I spray the case lube into a baggy filled with cartridges before I dump them into the case feeder. The other would be to call Dillon and see what they have to say. They have always had an answer to any question I have hit them with. 

 

TM

[Rip Snorter]

Have you identified a headstamp when the problem occurs?  

[Shawnee Hills]

Regarding the powder funnel:  How are you cleaning your cases?  Are you dry tumbling the .357 and 45 Colt brass but wet tumbling the 9?  I've noticed this same issue with new or wet tumbled cases.  It doesn't happen with dry tumbled because that process leaves a slight dusty coating on the brass.  That effectively acts as a lube for the powder funnel.  There's no 'lube' present on new or wet tumbled cases so you either need to lube those or run them through your dry tumbler for a bit.  I choose to dry tumble them because a larger volume of brass can be done quicker and it's a cleaner process.

 

Regarding 9mm cases not positioned correctly in the shell plate:  Is that brass shot through a Glock or other handgun that has a similar firing pin and bolt face?  Rounds fired out of Glocks typically have small sections of the primer faces that have 'flowed' into the recesses of the bolt face (like a bur on the case head).  This prevents an empty case from standing exactly upright when placed on a smooth surface.  If that's not the problem then you may need to adjust your wedge.  Also, make sure that the face of the pusher is clean, without any trace of a sticky residue.

 

Hope this helps.

[Sedalia Dave]

First, Are you using the correct powder funnel? ( F )

 

I had this issue loading 45ACP. Modified the powder funnel by slightly increasing the taper until I had removed about .001" from the tip. Did this by chucking it up in a lathe and increasing the taper with a little Emory paper. Then polished it to a mirror finish. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

Answering the questions above:

1) It happens with many different headstamps.  So, I've rule out manufacturer of brass as a cause.

2) I wet tumble.  But I wet tumble the 357Mag and 45Colt brass too, and it NEVER happens with those calibers.  So, I've ruled out the method of tumbling as a cause.

3) I shoot 9mm in volume in my Glock 19 and my CZ P-01; I do not separate the brass according to the gun it is shot out of, but it does not happen frequentely enough to be attributable to a particular gun.  If it was the CZ causing the issue, I would have MANY MANY more instances of the hang-ups.  And even if it was due to the G19 I would expect more than the random event.

4) The face of the pushing wedge is clean; and, as noted before, it doesn't happen with any other caliber case.  The 9mm cases are larger (diameter) than the .357Mag which do not show these issues, so I can't adjust the wedge to press further inwardly (towards the axis of the shell plate).

5) The powder funnel / expander die is an integral part of the caliber conversion kit on the Dillon 750, not a separately selected component.  It is part of the powder drop assembly.  So, yes, I am using the correct powder funnel.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Do you have zero up/down play in the shell plate? You should.....

Remove shell plate and make sure the bolts that mount the main plate to the ram are tight.

 

 

[Shawnee Hills]

A call to Dillon should help solve the issue. 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Do you have zero up/down play in the shell plate? You should.....

Remove shell plate and make sure the bolts that mount the main plate to the ram are tight.

 

 

OLG --

If there was unwanted play due to any mechanical issue under the shell plate, there's no way that loading 357 and 45 Colt could be done so easily and smoothly. I can set the amount of "float" as I like (and as the manual instructs).  But the issue is that I have a caliber-specific issue; I figure that it must have to do with something that is part of the 9mm caliber conversion and/or my 9mm toolhead.  I just can't see anything that would do it.  A commenter on another site I frequent said that it is due to the wide variation in the otherwise thin rim of a 9mm case.  I dont really think it possible that Dillon failed to design a shellplate for 9mm that actually and reliably holds 9mm cases.  On the other hand, since I reload once-fired range brass of all makers, maybe I can start to collect the cases that don't feed properly to see if there is a pattern in brass headstamps.  Or I might buy 100 good quality Starline cases and see if I experience the same issues in those 100 rounds.

That is all well and good as to the "tipping" case issue.  Still to be answered is why I'm having brass transfer from the insides of the cases to the polished outside of the powder drop funnel / expander die only for 9mm and no other caliber.

ND

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

Still to be answered is why I'm having brass transfer from the insides of the cases to the polished outside of the powder drop funnel / expander die only for 9mm and no other caliber.

ND

 

For the same reason it occurs with 45 ACP. The cases are really short. On some cases the web of the case extends a little higher making the brass thicker. This combined with the shape of the powder funnel causes it to bind occasionally because it is pushing against the thicker brass of the web.  The other calibers don't have this problem because the cases are longer so the powder funnel never approaches the thicker brass near the web of the case.

 

I fixed the issue for 45 ACP by giving a little more taper to the powder funnel.  

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

OK, thank you SD for an explanation that makes sense to me, finally.  It seems clear enough that the cause of the metal transfer is a significant amount of friction between the inside of the case and the surface of the funnel.  That means that some cases where the web extends more towards the case mouth than others are "undersized" in that their inside diameters are smaller than others, the deeper into the case you measure.  In light of this, I'd bet I am having more problems with particular brands of brass than with others, though I don't know which at this moment.

I now see why tapering the funnel a small amount will help reduce or even eliminate the issue: the leading (i.e., lower) end of that funnel really doesn't do anything.  The real work is done at the stepped conical portion where flaring is done, which operation will center the case to any extent it isn't already centered on the die.  I'm going to try to taper the end of the funnel just a smidge and see if that does the trick -- which I guess it should.  I think I'll give Dillon a call on Monday just to hear what they have to say, before I do anything.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

OLG --

If there was unwanted play due to any mechanical issue under the shell plate, there's no way that loading 357 and 45 Colt could be done so easily and smoothly. I can set the amount of "float" as I like (and as the manual instructs).  But the issue is that I have a caliber-specific issue; I figure that it must have to do with something that is part of the 9mm caliber conversion and/or my 9mm toolhead.  I just can't see anything that would do it.  A commenter on another site I frequent said that it is due to the wide variation in the otherwise thin rim of a 9mm case.  I dont really think it possible that Dillon failed to design a shellplate for 9mm that actually and reliably holds 9mm cases.  On the other hand, since I reload once-fired range brass of all makers, maybe I can start to collect the cases that don't feed properly to see if there is a pattern in brass headstamps.  Or I might buy 100 good quality Starline cases and see if I experience the same issues in those 100 rounds.

That is all well and good as to the "tipping" case issue.  Still to be answered is why I'm having brass transfer from the insides of the cases to the polished outside of the powder drop funnel / expander die only for 9mm and no other caliber.

ND

The longer cases are somewhat self aligning, short ones not so much.

BTDT....

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I had to look up the meaning of BTDT 

[Sedalia Dave]

48 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

OK, thank you SD for an explanation that makes sense to me, finally.  It seems clear enough that the cause of the metal transfer is a significant amount of friction between the inside of the case and the surface of the funnel.  That means that some cases where the web extends more towards the case mouth than others are "undersized" in that their inside diameters are smaller than others, the deeper into the case you measure.  In light of this, I'd bet I am having more problems with particular brands of brass than with others, though I don't know which at this moment.

I now see why tapering the funnel a small amount will help reduce or even eliminate the issue: the leading (i.e., lower) end of that funnel really doesn't do anything.  The real work is done at the stepped conical portion where flaring is done, which operation will center the case to any extent it isn't already centered on the die.  I'm going to try to taper the end of the funnel just a smidge and see if that does the trick -- which I guess it should.  I think I'll give Dillon a call on Monday just to hear what they have to say, before I do anything.

Keep in mind that once you get a tiny build up of brass on the powder funnel, it will cause cases that wouldn't normally stick to stick as well. 

 

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

4 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Keep in mind that once you get a tiny build up of brass on the powder funnel, it will cause cases that wouldn't normally stick to stick as well. 

 

Right, that's why I have been spinning the funnel between some fine emery paper held in my fingers every 100 rounds or so, just to get that stuff off.  It would be better if it didn't build up at all.  I'm only doing that for long enough to remove the brass lines, not nearly enough to modify the steel funnel itself, which it sounds like might be called for.

[Crisco]

Re. the copper transfer and effort, I recently started running into steel 9mm that look like regular brass.  I was using a magnet to remove a bunch of obvious steel cases from a big pile of 9mm and started picking up large piles of what looked like standard brass cases.  It must be some kind of copper wash or thin electroplate, so I can easily picture it leaving traces behind and requiring a lot more effort.

The headstamps were mostly X-TREME ST (or pretty similar, operating on memory now) and a couple of FM.

And here I thought the small primer .45’s were a pain…

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

To add information to this which may or may not be pertinent:

 

.357 Mag and .45 Colt are straight-walled cases

 

9 mm is a tapered cartridge

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

I had to look up the meaning of BTDT 

What's the diameter of your 9mm expander?

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

3 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Keep in mind that once you get a tiny build up of brass on the powder funnel, it will cause cases that wouldn't normally stick to stick as well. 

 

OK, I just did some measuring stuff.

 

There is no way that the leading tapered portion of the 750's flaring funnel is getting anywhere near the web of any case, regardless of brass maker.  That part of the funnel is no more than a third of the overall length of the case; it might be even shorter.

 

The diameter of the leading tapered portion of the Dillon part is identical to the diameter of the leading tapered portion of my expanding flaring RCBS die, basically 0.352 inch.  I ran a bunch of different headstamp cases through the sizing die and measured their ID at the mouth and they ranged from .347 to .349, with a couple that were a mil larger.  That's because the die also expands that first third of the case, beyond the flared mouth, to accept bullets and set the case tension on those bullets.  Taking anything off of that taper is going to mess with bullet seating and retention, the way I see it. 

 

Does anyone have any experience with Mighty Armory's 9mm replacement funnel flare on their Dillon press?  The company says that one of its main benefits is that it reduces the sticking problem.  Enough folks obviously experience excessive sticking that it justifies making and selling a replacement flaring funnel designed to overcome the issue.

[Shawnee Hills]

How many times have these 9mm cases been reloaded?  Work-hardened brass will resist movement a bit more than new.

 

As far as feeding cases into the shell plate, you only want them pushed into position with no extra force.  Trying to put extra pressure to ensure they stay there will likely result in tipping or dislodging from position slightly.  This will be more of a problem at high speeds or on a press that isn't mounted to a solid bench.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

I go slow and steady -- not in any sort of race.  My press is bolted to the bench and the bench is bolted to the steel beams behind it.  It can't move even if I tried.

 

Nearly all of the 9mm brass is once-fired, and this happens on the first go-round.  I've read threads on other sites by guys who experienced the same sticking issue and nearly gave up reloading 9mm as a result of the frustration.  I'm not nearly there yet, but if decent range ammo gets down to $0.15-16 a round, after tax and if, necessary, shipping, I might take a break from it.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

While I have not bought the replacement funnel  from Mighty Armory I have bought some other products from them and have been very pleased.

[Shawnee Hills]

I've experienced the case mouth sticking on the powder funnel issue with most new or wet tumbled straight-walled cartridges.  Brass is "grabby" when machining it so the problem makes sense, from that perspective.  Lube will make it a nonissue but it's also an extra step and, potentially, extra mess in your feeder and drop tube.  Even though it's still an extra step, my new or wet tumbled brass gets tumbled with corn cop before loading.  The problem disappears after doing that.

 

Still think that you need to give Dillon a call and discuss this with them.  They may have a permanent solution that none of us know about.  If so, please share with the class.

 

 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I would give Eyesa Horg's recommendation a try.  It is super easy.  Throw a bunch of brass in a low wide box and shake it up.  Quite a few will be mouth up.  Hit them with a quick spray of Hornady One Shot case lube.  It will not contaminate the powder.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Can you post any pictures of the issue?

I have been loading 9mm since the 1980's,  using mixed brass that a good amount was fired in select fire weapons and a variety of handguns.

Never had this issue you are having.

I do clean my brass in a Dillon vibratory case cleaner.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

22 hours ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

 

5) The powder funnel / expander die is an integral part of the caliber conversion kit on the Dillon 750, not a separately selected component.  It is part of the powder drop assembly.  So, yes, I am using the correct powder funnel.

Yes, and no. Sure you get a powder funnel/expander with the caliber conversion kit but you do NOT have to use it. I prefer the Dillon tapered powder funnel from the 1050 that does not expand the case, just bells it enough to seat the bullet. The bullet does the expanding as you seat it. No chance of the case sticking to it.

[Shawnee Hills]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I do clean my brass in a Dillon vibratory case cleaner.

Never had this issue reloading brass that was tumbled in corn cob or walnut.  It was only when I started wet tumbling that I noticed it.  Same with new brass without any trace of lube on it.  Finally figured out that the slight dust coating on dry tumbled brass was acting like a lube.  That's not present on wet tumbled so those go for a short ride in corn cob before loading.  Any media stuck in the flash hole gets ejected by the decap pin.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

1 hour ago, Boggus Deal #64218 said:

Yes, and no. Sure you get a powder funnel/expander with the caliber conversion kit but you do NOT have to use it. I prefer the Dillon tapered powder funnel from the 1050 that does not expand the case, just bells it enough to seat the bullet. The bullet does the expanding as you seat it. No chance of the case sticking to it.

Wow, that is a great idea -- especially in my 9mm toolhead, where the last stage is a LEE FCD.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

So, lots of folks here and elsewhere say that the problem is nonexistent for dusty-dirty-on-the-inside brass, and occurs when using brand new brass or with squeaky-clean-inside-and-out-and-non-carwaxed wet tumbled brass.  OK, fair enough.  I wet tumble with steel pins, dish detergent and a touch of citric acid, and I can shave in the mirror shine of my brass. 

I guess the question for Dillon is this: "Is it really true that reloading 9mm (and other short brass) works smoothily on a Dillon 750 only with dusty-dirty-on-the-inside brass?"

Boggus Deal's idea is a good one -- I think.  Doesn't the 1050 expand the case at another earlier stage before the powder drop stage?  If so, that's why there's a "powder activator" rather than a flare funnel at the powder drop.  I've read one guy said that when he did the suggested swap, his bullets didn't reliably seat straight up and down on the 750 because the cases were belled but not expanded at all.

And there's this -- from a 2017 post in Brian Enos's Forums:

I wonder if they still offer that service. 

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

Why not test the dirty brass theory yourself?

 

You don’t need to actually create loaded ammunition, just run uncleaned brass through the sizer and empty powder drop/expander dies and see if your problem persists.

[Nostrum Damus SASS #110702]

39 minutes ago, Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407 said:

Why not test the dirty brass theory yourself?

 

You don’t need to actually create loaded ammunition, just run uncleaned brass through the sizer and empty powder drop/expander dies and see if your problem persists.

 

Not a bad suggestion, though I'm not crazy about the idea of running a hundred dirty cases up into my carbide sizing die.  Something else to think about. 

 

I'm really leaning towards trying the Mighty Armory 9mm Powder Funnel Flare.  Cheaper than using Hornady One-Shot in the not-very-long run (wow that stuff is expensive), and doesn't add any steps/time to my process, and in fact doesn't change my process at all.  If if works as advertised, it is $49.95 well spent.

 

Update -- I ordered it.

Edited November 30 by Nostrum Damus SASS #110702

[Boggus Deal #64218]

The Hornady One Shot is worth EVERY penny spent on it. It saves so much effort sizing the brass. It really doesn’t add any time but the effort it saves is more than worth it. 

[Cayuse Jack, SASS #19407]

22 minutes ago, Nostrum Damus SASS #110702 said:

 

Not a bad suggestion, though I'm not crazy about the idea of running a hundred dirty cases up into my carbide sizing die.  Something else to think about. 

Your only talking about 100 pieces of brass…

What type of dirt could be on the empty brass that would harm carbide dies?

Just make sure to shake all of the loose dirt off of them.

 

Just thought this would be a quick and easy way to test. In the time you and I have posted you could have had results.