Feed issue with 1873

[Jimmy Wilson]

First I want to share that I'm a newer shooter, this is my first lever gun, and though I don't have smithing experience I'm pretty mechanically inclined and have already done a spring job on my revolver. Second, I've searched the forums for this issue, and I don't think it's been covered before. This isn't an issue of a round in the magazine catching on the lifter or about the angle of the gate ramp that I've seen posted on here quite a bit (at least I can't imagine why it would be). 

 

Rifle details: 20" Uberti 1873 in 45LC, purchased brand new a few weeks ago. Only shot about 50 rounds through it this past weekend.

 

Issue: When feeding a round into the barrel (pretty sure that's considered the breech?) most cases seem to catch on their way in stopping the lever. Then I have to jiggle the rifle a bit to get them to drop in, and then I can push the bolt forward with the lever. This seems to happen no matter what brand of commercial ammo I try. I've attached an image of what this looks like. 

 

Ammo I've tried: Fiocchi Cowboy (1.546 OAL), HSM Cowboy (1.571 OAL), and Magtech Cowboy (1.579 OAL). The HSM seems to have the least issues, then the Magtech, and worst is the Fiocchi

Solutions I've tried: So far the only thing I've tried is giving the gun a good cleaning without disassembly. I need to pick up some proper smithing screwdrivers, since it sounds like standard screwdrivers are likely to strip/mar the slots. I do plan to disassemble, fully clean, and possibly polish soon though.

 

Hoping someone has a simple solution, I'd hate to have to get it to a gunsmith before I even get to shoot a match with it. 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Lifter looks like it is coming up a little too high - the top edge is well above the adjacent flat cut on the top of receiver.  This may be catching the lower edge / face of the bolt by contact with the lifter channel (it has a hole from back to front in it where the bolt runs going forward to chamber the round)  A catch here would interrupt forward travel at the position in the picture.  To test this, put a little thumb pressure pushing the lifter block down 1/4" while you try to lever.  Report back if this helps or does nothing.  If this is the case, you may see a bright shiny spot looking down at that channel in the carrier once you remove all rounds.  Let us know about the lifter carrier.

 

good luck, GJ

Edited November 26 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Jimmy Wilson]

Thanks for the reply Joe. It does seem the carrier is above the frame, but I can't restrict it any lower with my finger or the bolt won't advance. Here's a side angle of the carrier position with the lever completely forward and the bolt free to move.

 

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

I had an issue like this a few years ago with my then new 1873 Uberti in 32-20. Turns out the mortice behind the carrier wasn't milled at an angle causing the base of the bullet to catch it and lock the carrier from continuing up. Had a gunsmith correct it and it's worked fine since. You may want to check that. Here is an old thread thhat explains it with pictures.

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

First - make sure you do not have a bullet stuck in the chamber or throat of the gun!    This stops a round from fully chambering just like your pic shows.   Run a cleaning rod down from the muzzle until it comes out into the carrier shaft.  If you can't you have a slug stuck from either a squib round or a bullet that caught in the chamber and pulled itself out of the case - that would have spilled powder around the action, too!

 

Second, take a real close look at the tab at the front of the bolt face, lower edge of it.  This tab should stick straight forward.  If it is bent downward, it can catch in the groove of the cartridge channel in the carrier (lifter) block.  A bent cartridge support tab needs replacement or repair.  A gunsmith job, for a first time cowboy shooter.

 

Lifter arm is raising the carrier about the right height, now that you gave us a side view. 

 

This problem could well be that the loading gate mortise was not beveled enough - it has been on many Uberti guns over the years.  This problem would make the first round balky to cycle up from magazine to chamber.  (But, that problem usually locks the gun up as you lever the action open, then start to close the action.   You are showing you can get the action about 2/3 closed! So this may not be your problem) 

 

A crooked round in the carrier usually requires jiggling the lever or slapping the gun to straighten out the round in the carrier block.  And could even affect the second round being crooked enough in the carrier channel to prevent the first one going into the chamber.  Load magazine with ten rounds in a safe place and manner.  Dummy rounds if you have them.     Look down in the opening in the carrier block to see if the first round sits angled (crooked) instead of straight forward.  Crooked means a poorly machined loading gate mortise.   Although lots of folks with experience can fix this with  these instructions:

http://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info/

then go to the "Frame Modification for 1866/73" instruction link.

It can be well above the level of a person who has never taken apart a 73 rifle, though!

 

If this is the problem, a workaround to let you shoot the gun would be to carry a stick (about pencil size) that you can push the FIRST round (last  round loaded) straight by putting the end of the stick through the loading date (like you were trying to "load the stick" into the magazine).  Once the cartridge is straight, the action will let you cycle it fully.  If the SECOND round also sits crooked, the problem is pretty severe, but the firing of the gun often provides enough vibration (jiggle) that the second and remaining rounds will cycle OK.

 

Having a cowboy gunsmith fix this will be simple.  Other gunsmiths won't even understand what you want them to do.  Beware!  Ask around the club where you are located for a local gunsmith who is "cowboy capable".

 

Sorry if no one informed you that almost all Cowboy guns from any factory will not have enough attention fitting the parts to run well, smoothly and quickly right out of the box.   These designs took hours of fitting at the factory back when they were originally made.  They still need individual parts fitting and smoothing, even if now they are made on CNC and robotic controlled machinery.  

 

good luck, GJ

Edited November 26 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

Great advise from Garrison Joe (as always).

 

I can't tell from your first picture, but is that cartridge topped with rimmed lead bullet? It would be helpful to see a picture of the rounds you are trying to fire. If you are trying to use rounds that have a "small lead collar" right above the brass, you will cause all type of issues feeding in this type of rifle.

[Old Man Graybeard]

Also...if you end up taking the rifle apart...and have not done so before...the screws are in tight...very tight from the factory...and Uberti screws are notoriously soft. You may end up needing to replace some screws. VTI gunparts has origianal and hardened screws. Brownell's has a gunsmith impact driver...get the kit that comes with bits

[Choctaw Jack]

Just my opinion but...

Save yourself some time and a world of aggravation ( and quite possibly some money ) by sending it to a reputable Cowboy gunsmith. A good action job and even a short-stroke kit can really make the sport a lot more fun.

Choctaw

[Jimmy Wilson]

Thanks all for the replies. I'll address one at a time

 

Mikey, I saw that thread, but I don't have that extreme of an angle and the carrier itself cycles up/down just fine, it's only the chambering that seems to be the issue.

 

Joe, thanks for the follow ups.

 

I did make sure it wasn't a squib on the range while shooting, and I had just cleaned it with a bore snake prior to taking this photo, so I know the barrel was clear. The round does eventually drop in on its own if I angle the barrel down and give the gun a bit of a jiggle, so the bore itself isn't blocked. I also peaked in with a light to make sure there's no split casing, having read that can be an issue with reloading. 

 

I saw a video about tabs breaking and having to weld new ones, but this is a brand new gun right from a dealer, so I'd really hope it didn't break that soon. I did take a look just in case (and took a pic) and the tab looks good to my eyes.

 

As mentioned to Mikey, the last round to be loaded (only six in this case, that's how many snap caps I bought) is slightly canted, but not as serious as some of the photos I've seen on the forum and it straightens itself out as it rises in the carrier. I've attached pics of the last loaded round at the bottom of the carrier, then as it's elevated, then the next one at the bottom of the carrier again (I carefully removed the previous one so I could get this photo). You are right that subsequent rounds are all straight, and I was finding it wasn't always the first round to chamber that was the issue, sometimes that one was fine and even when it wasn't, the middle rounds were often lodging partially in the chamber as well. Oh and I should mention this problem doesn't exist at all with Snapcaps, but I assume that's because they're one solid piece of aluminum and there's no real shoulder of brass to catch on. 

 

TN Mongo, no lead collars, the HSM and Magtech have nice eased crimps at the edge of the brass, but the Fiocchi has a more square shoulder. I've attached pics of them in that order left->right.

 

Graybeard, thanks for the advice about VTI. I should probably just order the hardened set now so I have them when I inevitably break one.

 

Jack, you're likely right. I was hoping to "play" for a few months before having to get into slicking things up because I won't be the fastest anyway, so I figured I might as well get some time in practicing proper form and learning all the rules. Anyone happen to know a good smith in Southern California, even better if they're in San Diego? I've seen a few farther north in CA and in AZ, but I'm hoping to avoid FFL fees on top of everything else if I can.

 

Thanks all for your suggestions. This really is a friendly and helpful bunch!

Edited November 26 by Jimmy Wilson

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

The carrier may just not be rising far enough, or too far.  Next time it happens, don't jiggle it, reach underneath and push the carrier up with your fingers to see if it goes up a tad and the round slides in.  If that doesn't help, push down slightly on the carrier from the top while trying to chamber to see if that frees it up.  Either way, might need to bend your lifter arm a bit which is not too hard.  

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

That round in the carrier at an angle (first of your latest pics) is the tell-tale sign of needing the loading gate mortise beveled!    If that is what happens with 6 rounds in the mag tube, when you load 10 (the usual load for the rifle), the crooked round jam will be even worse - jammed tighter (due to pressure from the tighter compression that 10 rounds in the mag tube cause) because the round is harder to "jiggle back" straight.  Look seriously at the frame loading gate window bevel!

 

All your ammo has round nose flat point slugs.  The ammo is NOT what is causing a failure to feed.  Folks were trying to point out the well-known problems of trying to get semi-wadcutter ammo to feed in most lever guns.  Even if t hey called it a collared round.  BUT that is not your problem since you are using RNFP ammo.

 

Do all three of the ammo types show some resistance when you try to chamber them?  I would not put too much importance on finding that snap caps feed well, because they may be slightly smaller diameter than the 0.480" nominal diameter of the .45 Colt cartridge.

 

Let's try an experiment with just loading one round.   Take a black sharpie and mark all the slug and case right down to the rim.  Put that round in the loading gate and ease the lever through a cycle.  If the round hangs up, stop and extract the round with easy motion.  Look for where there are scratches showing binding on the round as it was trying to feed.  Take a few pics of any rubbed off marking.

 

You have a rather unusual problem.  The 73 rifle feeds the round almost straight in.   It would take the carrier being quite a bit out of position to make the feeding (forward travel of the bolt) bind up.   

 

good luck, GJ

[Jimmy Wilson]

Ah ok, I didn’t think about the fact it’d have more pressure on it with ten rounds. The link you shared to https://www.pioneergunworks.com/technical-info/ seems to be dead. I think Pioneer did a website redesign recently because I had a tab saved for something or other and I found that one broke as well. 
 

How do I extract the round if it hangs while chambering? Maybe I’m missing something but it seems the round needs to chamber for the carrier to drop back down and allow extraction.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Here's one I did back in '08, you can see the shiny part.  All I had was some little hand files, it took a while!

Edited November 27 by Abilene, SASS # 27489

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

3 hours ago, Jimmy Wilson said:

How do I extract the round if it hangs while chambering?

 

IF USING LIVE AMMO, DO THIS WORK IN A SAFE AREA, KEEPING FINGER OFF TRIGGER AND WORKING GENTLY AND WITH MUZZLE IN A SAFE DIRECTION AT ALL TIMES.

 

You said earlier that the round never really FAILS to go in the chamber, if you jiggle things around.  So, jiggle things around like you have done and get the round into chamber, close action and the extractor hook catches the rim.  Then opening the lever will pull the round out and the carrier will rise to eject the round out the top of action.

 

If action really "sticks/jams" with round part of way into chamber and the extractor has not hooked the rim, then with a long rod (3/8" wooden dowel works) gently push on the tip of the bullet that is now within the chamber until it comes back into the carrier.  Then gently open the lever.  Lever goes all the way open with the round falling back inside the carrier.  Push down on carrier and move lever slightly back, carrier should drop to bottom of shaft, open the loading gate and jiggle the round out through the loading gate.

 

This really is not normal behavior for a well functioning gun.   An experienced '73 shooter watching you would be real advisable, to spot what is causing the temporary "jam".  Know someone at your local club?

 

Does that make sense to you?  Let us know if you have questions about this.  GJ

Edited November 27 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

3 hours ago, Jimmy Wilson said:

The link you shared to Pioneer seems to be dead.

 

Yeah, they reworked a page name.  (Silly thing to do when lots of folks have it bookmarked) I thought I captured and shared that new URL/name, so here's the new URL:

 

https://www.pioneergunworks.com/pages/installation-instructions-technical-info

 

GJ

 

 

 

[Jimmy Wilson]

Oh sorry Joe, I misunderstood what you meant by "extract the round with easy motion". Makes more sense now. I'll give this a shot and report back. Luckily I have an indoor range pretty close by and I've been meaning to get some time in with my SXS before our club's next meet.

 

Abilene, that pic is very helpful, thank you.

[Jimmy Wilson]

Here with a post work day update. I tried the sharpie idea, and the only marks that I consistently saw are two lines where the casing rides along the bottom of the carrier, which makes sense to me because it has always felt like it's hanging up on the casing edge and not anywhere else.

 

I went back to Abilene's suggestion to try pushing both up and down on the carrier and sure enough, pushing up just slightly but not too much fixes the issue. Looking closely with a flashlight, I can see a decent (in relation) gap at the top of the bore if I don't push up on the carrier. I thought my problem was solved, I can adjust the carrier arm like Abilene suggested. Only now there's a new issue. When I'm pushing up on the carrier it makes contact with the bolt causing drag, and the bolt even catches and stops about half way (it's not the round this time, that will continue dropping in on it's own if the rifle is tilted down).

 

It's really unfortunate that an $1800 rifle is not at least functional right out of the box. I'm planning to call Stoeger/Uberti next week and see what they say. The FFL I used to complete the transfer is also a gunsmith and the president of the range where our club shoots, so I plan to give him a call as well.

 

Thanks again for all the advice here. This must be a really obscure problem because even now that I know the solution, I'm still not finding any search results that describe the same issue.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

I'm still not finding any search results that describe the same issue.

This stuff is kinda deep, but Pioneer Gunworks short stroke installation instructions are very informative about the operation of the lever, lifter and carrier.

 

Carrier height is determined mainly by the lifter arm geometry  - its shape (amount of bend).  If you need a little bit higher lift for the carrier, and the carrier does not impede the bolt travel, you can very carefully bend the lifter arm to raise the carrier to a slightly higher elevation.  Take a look at how Pioneer Gun Works describes and shows pictures in their fitting instructions for lifter arm installation (this is for their short stroke kit, but the general geometry is very similar to factory parts).  

On their technical info page,

https://www.pioneergunworks.com/pages/installation-instructions-technical-info

 

look at the

Short Stroke Kit Installation

 

or the video:

P.G.W. Short Stroke Kit Installation Video.

 

However, this (bending the lifter arm) would be a very tricky adjustment that a smith who has been solving similar problems needs to look at.   And any adjustment also needs to make sure you do not cause the TIMING of when the carrier rises and falls, and when the bolt needs to travel forward and back during the lever operation cycle, to cause the bolt to hit the carrier or bend the cartridge support tab on the bolt!

 

I think talking this over with your gunsmith/Cowboy shooter would be the next best step.   It will be hard to give you instruction for a complex fix that (as you can tell from lack of solid responses) most folks have never done. 

 

Stoeger is the importer.  They will have a gunsmith back in MD that they probably have on retainer to do warranty repair.  The gun will probably NOT go back to Uberti in Italy.  The gun is unlikely to be straight-up replaced without Stoeger's guy taking a close look.  Several of our good cowboy smiths would be able to do this work, but you really have not EXACTLY found out what will have to be tuned to make this run well, even if you think you have.   So, decide if you want to handle this locally, handle it with the help of a good gunsmith (like Jim Bowie in Yuma AZ), or try to get warranty assistance from Stoeger (that will take a  long time and can be an exercise in arguments traded and fingers pointed).

 

good luck, GJ

 

[Jimmy Wilson]

I’ve been sitting here looking at it trying to understand how this could have made it out of QA, and I noticed when the lever is closed, the carrier sits ever so slightly below the frame, a little bit more than the gap at the top of the round when the brass meets the bore. Is this normal? I hadn’t even noticed before because I was concentrating on where things aligned when the lever was open. 
 

 

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

9 hours ago, Jimmy Wilson said:

I’ve been sitting here looking at it trying to understand how this could have made it out of QA, and I noticed when the lever is closed, the carrier sits ever so slightly below the frame, a little bit more than the gap at the top of the round when the brass meets the bore. Is this normal? I hadn’t even noticed before because I was concentrating on where things aligned when the lever was open. 
 

 

Normal.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If you are adventurous enough to learn how to disassemble the gun, then do so far enough to get the lever, links, carrier and lifter arm out.  Then, to make sure channel in the carrier is large enough to pass the bolt AND a commercial round, try passing both through from back to front to simulate the travel of bolt and round as they are chambered.   Watch for any tight spots, burrs, etc.  Correct if necessary.  Again, working with someone experienced will help ensure interpret the fit well and don't take off metal that doesn't need to be removed.  Then reassemble and test.

 

good luck, GJ

[Shawnee Hills]

Your first picture looks to me like the round is stopped on the edge of the case mouth.  Looking at the picture of your three rounds, it appears that two of those do not have enough crimp.  You can check for the proper crimp by running the tip of your fingernail from the edge of the bullet to the case.  If you detect an exposed edge (shaves off thumbnail material), you need more crimp.  Another way to check is by looking alongside the round from the bullet.  If you see an exposed edge of the case, you need more crimp.

 

If your ammo passes the test above, then we may be looking at a slight timing issue.  That may be able to be corrected by slightly bending the lifter.  The culprit may also be the spring on your lifter.  Either it is too loose or the tab is not in the correct position to hold the lifter at the proper height.

 

This is an easily solved problem but one that will take some detective work.  Since the rifle is new, however, it will greatly benefit from having a CAS smith check it out and smooth it up for you.  New Uberti rifles are generally regarded as preassembled kits from the factory.  They all need extra work to be acceptable for competition.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

3 hours ago, Shawnee Hills said:

Your first picture looks to me like the round is stopped on the edge of the case mouth.

To me, it looks like travel stopped about 15 thousandths short of the crimp.  Commercial RNFP ammo rarely has a "proud crimp", especially 3 different brands.

 

good luck, GJ

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I'd like to point out, the cartridges shown at Left and Right have NO roll crimp or almost no roll crimp and appear to be Taper crimp'd.  If Uberti failed to include the slight radius at the barrel breach, the problem cited by the OP would occur.  There is also suppose to be a light "feed ramp" at the lower barrel breach.  there should be NO sharp edges at the barrel breach.

[Jimmy Wilson]

You’re right Colorado, there doesn’t seem to be any radius on there breach, it’s a crisp termination. I wasn’t sure if there was supposed to be a radius or if the breach opening is tapered to allow for some slight variance in ammo. 
 

I called Stoeger today and they said just ship it to them and they’ll take care of it, so that’s the next step. Originally I was going to go through my local gun shop but they want $125 each way on top of the shipping (that Stoeger said they’ll cover), so I need to call some other FFLs tomorrow or ship directly. I’m only hesitant to ship directly because the service guy said it requires I be home to receive it once fixed and I have some travel coming up. 
 

I’ll be sure to post an update on what (if anything) they end up sharing with me. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy Wilson said:

You’re right Colorado, there doesn’t seem to be any radius on there breach, it’s a crisp termination. I wasn’t sure if there was supposed to be a radius or if the breach opening is tapered to allow for some slight variance in ammo. 
 

I called Stoeger today and they said just ship it to them and they’ll take care of it, so that’s the next step. Originally I was going to go through my local gun shop but they want $125 each way on top of the shipping (that Stoeger said they’ll cover), so I need to call some other FFLs tomorrow or ship directly. I’m only hesitant to ship directly because the service guy said it requires I be home to receive it once fixed and I have some travel coming up. 
 

I’ll be sure to post an update on what (if anything) they end up sharing with me. 

If you are shipping back to manufacturer, tell them to send you a Call Tag. The shipping to and from you should be on their nickel since it's a manufacturing flaw.

 

Phantom

[Jimmy Wilson]

Oh yeah, Stoeger said they’ll cover the shipping and I could either ship it directly or go through an FFL. I only opted for FFL to make it easier to get the gun back to me, but I’ll deal with UPS possibly missing me and holding it at a warehouse to save myself $250. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You should coordinate with the service rep at Stoeger to contact you BEFORE they ship the gun back to you!   Give them your phone # and have them call.  That way you can get very close to knowing you will be home rather than traveling.  But if you are still working days, you need a receiver who will be around for a day-time receipt of the gun. 

 

UPS normally sends an email when a package is coming to you.   Sometimes they don't.   Ask Stoeger for tracking info on the gun when they ship back! 

 

good luck, GJ

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, Jimmy Wilson said:

Oh yeah, Stoeger said they’ll cover the shipping and I could either ship it directly or go through an FFL. I only opted for FFL to make it easier to get the gun back to me, but I’ll deal with UPS possibly missing me and holding it at a warehouse to save myself $250. 

$250 is ludicrous...and I'm a big supporter of LGS folks.

 

Phantom

[Jimmy Wilson]

I know Phantom. I’ve tried to shop local, but there are very few gun shops around me that carry cowboy style, and most of the ones that do only carry Henry and Miroku (and finding ammo is even harder). The shop in question quoted me a Pietta made Cimmaron almost double the price online. I get they have more costs, but it just felt outrageous to pay that much more (and apparently premium background/transfer fees). 
 

I ended up sourcing my guns via Gunbroker and Sportsman’s Warehouse. Even if Sportsman’s is a giant chain, at least they employ some knowledgeable folks at the gun counter. I do have another FFL that is more reasonably priced ($65 for background/transfers), but he’s a one man band and happened to be closed today. 
 

Joe, good call on being proactive about communication. I’ll follow that advice for certain. 

[Go West]

It is common to have brand new guns worked on to enhance operation, but a new gun should work when new. Your call to Stoeger was a good idea before it was modified. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

41 minutes ago, Go West said:

It is common to have brand new guns worked on to enhance operation, but a new gun should work when new. Your call to Stoeger was a good idea before it was modified. 

They should...but they are mechanical thingies built by humans.

 

I personally know that Ferraris have had to go back for...adjustments...had a $10k custom rifle go back because the trigger had issues right out of the "box".

 

These things you just can't get all riled up about...it's part of living. And blaming a manufacturer should only be done if they don't fix the problem with a smile on their face and a sincere apology.

 

Phantom

[Jimmy Wilson]

Judging by how few results I’ve found of similar posts, I’m betting this is a super rare issue and I just happened to be unlucky. Stoeger’s customer service rep was nothing but pleasant and helpful, so I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that they will make it right. Hopefully I’ll get it back in time for the club match on the 21st and I can finally shoot my first match.