Yet another dumb question

[Dapper Dave]

If I want to compete with cap and ball, how does the shotgun and rifle portions work, with black powder cartridge,  or true muzzle loaders? Just curious,  I have two cap and ball awesome pistols and a TC Renegade 54 caliber front stuffer, but I can't see meeting time requirements trying to reload rifle or shotgun with a true front stuffer.  Just wondering,  if you don't mind. I have done some experiments with BP cartridge,  but I am in my infancy  

[Matthew Duncan]

31 minutes ago, Dapper Dave said:

…a TC Renegade 54 caliber front stuffer, but I can't see meeting time requirements trying to reload rifle …

 

SASS doesn’t have “time requirements”.

 

If you can reload in thirty seconds x 10 rounds per stage x five stages that’s twenty five minutes of your fellow posse members standing around waiting on you.  Your next match you might find yourself on a posse of one, you.  

 

On the other hand there wouldn’t be any brass to pick up.

 

[Dubious Don #56333]

Cap & ball for pistols. Black powder shells in shotgun, black powder shells in a lever rifle. Have at it.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

SASS competition shotguns and rifles must be cartridge guns.  I too, love muzzleloaders, but this sport is not for ML rifles and shotguns.  They are for side matches only, if your club has one in which muzzleloaders are shot.

--Dawg
From the Shooter's Handbook pages 38 & 39:

Rifle Requirements

Rifles or carbines used in the main and team matches must be original or replicas of lever or slide action rifles manufactured during the period from approximately 1860 until 1899, incorporating a tubular magazine and exposed hammer. Rifles with box magazines may not be used. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of rifle and ammunition to be used. Please see the shooting categories for further information Rifle Calibers - Must be centerfire of at least .32 caliber and not larger than .45 caliber.

 

Shotgun Requirements

Any side-by-side or single shot shotgun typical of the period from approximately 1860 until 1899 with or without external hammers, having single or double triggers is allowed. Automatic ejectors are allowed on single shot break action, lever, and pump action shotguns ONLY. Side-by-side shotguns may not use automatic ejectors. Lever action, tubular feed, exposed hammer shotguns of the period are allowed, whether original or replicas. The only slide action shotgun allowed is the Model 1897 Winchester shotgun, whether original or replica. Certain shooting categories require a specific type of shotgun and ammunition to be used. Military configurations are not allowed (i.e., trench guns). Please see the shooting categories for additional regulations. Shotgun Gauges - Side-by-side, single shot, and lever action shotguns must be centerfire of at least 20 gauge and no larger the 10 gauge

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

There are two events designed for cap and ball revolvers: main match Frontiersman and the Plainsman side match.  Descriptions and requirements are in the Shooters Handbook.  I started in SASS using cap and ball revolvers but soon bought a pair of revolvers for competition.  Keeping cap and ball revolvers running on a rainy day was not fun.  I still shoot the cap and ball revolvers in dry weather.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OP, have you attended ANY shoots yet?

Have you read the shooter's handbook?

[John Kloehr]

5 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

... shooter's handbook?

Find it here:

 

https://sassnet.com/uploads/downloads/Shooters Handbooks - CAS/CAS SHB Vers 27.5 - 2024.pdf

 

Also an RO1 class will clarify some things but still the dumbest questions are the ones which are not asked.

[Texas Jack Black]

29 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

Find it here:

 

https://sassnet.com/uploads/downloads/Shooters Handbooks - CAS/CAS SHB Vers 27.5 - 2024.pdf

 

Also an RO1 class will clarify some things but still the dumbest questions are the ones which are not asked.

 Sometimes for good reason.😉

[Cholla]

Bear in mind cap and ball revolvers can be problematic on windy days. We have a shooter that uses loose powder and often gives up in a stage or two into the match. Pre-made paper cartridges would resolve that issue. I don't know how windy it is in Casa Grande, but here in Chino Valley, when the wind stops blowing half the cows fall over.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Attend some shoots.  Have some fun.  Learn to shoot what you have. And read the rule book.  I see you shoot with Colt Faro.  Have him bring you to Cowtown and ACSA so you can get some additional shoots under your belt.

 

Opps wrong Colt.  The one you are shooting with at Rio - Colt Laredo.

[Judah MacAbee SASS #64095 Life]

I'm taking a break from Frontiersman this year due to some hand issues and  general laziness but come talk to me about it at Rio. Also Rattlesnake Jake is a Frontiersman and can tell you about paper cartridges, but the short answer is you use your regular rifle and shotgun (check the list in the handbook) with BP or BP subs and two cap & ball revolvers 

[Too Tall Bob]

Rattlesnake Jake - you never know what kind of guns he will show up with!  He is a lot of fun to shoot with. We miss him at the Tombstone Livery!

 

TTB

[Griff]

9 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

If I want to compete with cap and ball, how does the shotgun and rifle portions work, with black powder cartridge,  or true muzzle loaders? Just curious,  I have two cap and ball awesome pistols and a TC Renegade 54 caliber front stuffer, but I can't see meeting time requirements trying to reload rifle or shotgun with a true front stuffer.  Just wondering,  if you don't mind. I have done some experiments with BP cartridge,  but I am in my infancy  

The really simple answer is just the propellant.  

[Dapper Dave]

7 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

OP, have you attended ANY shoots yet?

Have you read the shooter's handbook?

Yes and yes, so sorry to bother you, was just curious what people did, and I was curious about the side matches. But I will bow out now, thank you for your time. 

1 hour ago, Griff said:

The really simple answer is just the propellant.  

That was what i read, was just curious if anyone ever used true front stuffers, and I see the answer is no. Thank you for your time. 

[Dapper Dave]

1 hour ago, Judah MacAbee SASS #64095 Life said:

I'm taking a break from Frontiersman this year due to some hand issues and  general laziness but come talk to me about it at Rio. Also Rattlesnake Jake is a Frontiersman and can tell you about paper cartridges, but the short answer is you use your regular rifle and shotgun (check the list in the handbook) with BP or BP subs and two cap & ball revolvers 

I am experimenting with paper cartridges in 44 right now, have had some luck. I would have to get a shotgun loader - the one thing I don't load yet, but I am working on making my own black powder, just need a new ball mill. I won't make the December match but I will be there in Jan with bells on. 
Thank you for your help, sir, much obliged. 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Duelist 1954 has two videos on YouTube on loading shotgun shells with a nail and dowel - Part 1 and Part 2.  (Loading with these methods and homemade BP is probably the most labor-intensive method of producing BP shells.)

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Dapper Dave said:

Yes and yes, so sorry to bother you, was just curious what people did, and I was curious about the side matches. But I will bow out now, thank you for your time. 

If you have read the Handbook, you'd see the following:

 

Frontiersman Category

Frontiersman Rules: - Any main match percussion revolver with fixed sights. - Revolvers must be shot Duelist or Double Duelist style. See Duelist description for required shooting technique. - Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun). - Must use a side-by-side, single shot, or lever action shotgun in the main match stages. - Any SASS legal pistol caliber rifle is acceptable.

 

If you find another Main Match category that says you must use percussion revolvers, let us know. Please note the fact that no muzzle loaders are mentioned...

 

Here's the thing...for me at least. You'd be far better off going to a bunch of matches and shooting what you have right now than getting all into all the possibilities. Observe/listen...ask questions at the matches. You'll start to figure out what you really want to get into.

 

Just my opinion...take it or leave for it doesn't matter much too me either way.

 

Phantom

[Burn Through]

But I think you can shoot cap guns in any category... so if you want shoot age based and dont worry about it .. but you will need to load cap guns with a sub or black but can shoot what ever outta rifle and shotgun , might make it easier if buying shells for rifle and shotgun  

[John Kloehr]

As far as rules, just because a category requires something does not mean it is prohibited otherwise.

 

I shoot Cowboy, it does not require cowboy boots. My lady likes how I look when I walk in them. So that is what I chose. They slow me down a bit, but I don't care.

 

I once used a SxS shotgun with external hammers, but self-cocking (not allowed in a certain category). Otherwise still allowed in Cowboy. Did ask for input at the shoot and resulted in an interesting discussion. That SxS was a pain though as it was really tight, but it was legal in my category so I did get to shoot that day.

[Dapper Dave]

I apologize for kicking the hornets nest, please disregard. I hope everyone has a wonderful day. 

[Cholla]

5 hours ago, Dapper Dave said:

I apologize for kicking the hornets nest, please disregard. I hope everyone has a wonderful day. 

No need to apologize. Find a used Lee Load All or MEC Junior. They both should be under $100. Sportsman's Warehouse sells MEC shotgun shell presses, parts, and shotgun shell components. I think Scheels does as well and Black Friday is coming.

[Erasmus]

On 11/17/2024 at 2:46 PM, Dapper Dave said:

I am experimenting with paper cartridges in 44 right now, have had some luck. I would have to get a shotgun loader - the one thing I don't load yet, but I am working on making my own black powder, just need a new ball mill. I won't make the December match but I will be there in Jan with bells on. 
Thank you for your help, sir, much obliged. 

 

 

A shotgun loader will make life easier, but as mentioned above, it's not necessary. I shoot brass hulls because I want to, and I Ioad them all by hand. I don't find it to be much of a chore to put up 50 in an evening. A few evenings later I've got enough to shoot for the rest of the month or more if I'm busy. 

 

I have no experience with paper cartridges, I use a loading stand and load the cylinders off the gun. It's relatively quick and I can spend my time at home making shotgun shells and black powder cartridges for my rifle rather than gluing together paper cartridges. If I'm feeling particularly plucky I pre-charge a bunch of (in my case .38 spc) cases and store them in a plastic ammo box. I use a piece of old foam camping pad to lay over the top and the plastic case lid compresses the foam over the case mouths keeping the powder from falling out. With these pre-measured charges I can load on the gun or on the loading stand pretty easily. I've never had a problem with wind that can't be fixed by just going back to using the loading stand and charging my cylinders with a 20 grain spout on my flask. 

 

Or just buy have 12 cylinders on hand and charge them all at home.