Mare’s leg and other rifle pistols

[Trigger Mike]

I had last heard that you can not shoot a mare’s leg lever action pistol from the shoulder nor any AR pistol etc yet I kept seeing online videos of folks doing that , shooting with the stock or arm brace in the shoulder .  What is the latest rule regarding that?

[watab kid]

who knows ? ... last i heard the ATF was forbidden from keeping a collected list and they were not allowed to legislate - only congress can do the latter , but they have over the years done both , will be interesting to see what transpires in the next four years , wont it ? 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

11 hours ago, watab kid said:

who knows ? ... last i heard the ATF was forbidden from keeping a collected list and they were not allowed to legislate - only congress can do the latter , but they have over the years done both , will be interesting to see what transpires in the next four years , wont it ? 

We can only hope!

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

Last I heard, the Supreme Court had overturned the "Pistol Brace" ban. I don't know exactly what that means, but it sounds like a Good Thing.

[watab kid]

9 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

We can only hope!

im prayin on it and have high hopes 

[ORNERY OAF]

Tenn gun owner site says-The court ruled that the "June 13, 2024, Federal District Judge Reed O’Connor, of the Northern District of Texas, held that the ATF’s “pistol brace” rule is void. Although it did not address the constitutional challenges to the ATF’s actions," what that means, who knows???  ..the ruling didn't stop them from charging anyone with an SBR but there are still rules about the brace in place but it is hard to get an exact definition...No one has been charged and I doubt anyone will unless it's an add on to a real bad situation(active shooter)..and you seeing these idiots shooting pistol braces from the shoulder ???? Ever heard the saying "our own worst enemy "?.......all available on line supreme court rulings.

[Trigger Mike]

That’s what I was thinking, why post videos, even palmetto state armory post videos of a pistol fired from the shoulder.  The mare’s leg for a child or woman would be great if legally can be shot from the shoulder 

[Leroy Luck]

In August 2024 the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals decided that it is arbitrary and capricious and could not be enforced. A 33 page document from the court of appeals stated that the Final Rule (ATFs decision to make braces illegal) was vacated. 

It still allows the use of braces. 

Which I understand is in reference to pistol braces and not mare’s legs as the original topic lists.
 

But it states on page 18 of the document “the Coalition is likely to succeed on the merit of its argument that this step is arbitrary and capricious; the ATF “has articulated no standard whatsoever for determining” when a stabilizing brace’s rear surface area would allow the shouldering of a weapon.”

 

I would interpret it to say that shouldering mare’s legs isn’t illegal. 

 

Edited November 11, 2024 by Leroy Luck

[ORNERY OAF]

I tend to agree with Leroy, the mares leg is not a pistol, I believe it is classified as a firearm. But it started out that way it was not modified. Totally different than a brace

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Figuring out what is actually meant by BATFE "regulations" is akin to announcing you understand women.  In all actuality. we. collectively, don't have a clue.  And, who is gonna tell the BATFE, H. K. may have been seen shoulder firing one or all of his Mare's legs??  Will BATFE actually care??  Will the average jam and fudge BATFE agent even know what a Mare is, let alone one has four legs??  

[Sedalia Dave]

Just remember that you cannot take any firearm originally sold as a rifle and convert it into a pistol.

 

ie. You cannot put a pistol length upper on a lower originally sold as a rifle.

 

You can however take a lower originally sold as a pistol and convert it into a rifle as long as you mate the rifle length upper to the lower before installing the butt stock.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:28 AM, ORNERY OAF said:

I tend to agree with Leroy, the mares leg is not a pistol, I believe it is classified as a firearm. But it started out that way it was not modified. Totally different than a brace

 

A "Mares Leg" is considered a pistol by the ATF. 

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

A mare's leg was always one of those "why" things. I guess because Steve McQueen had one on that show. I always wanted to see him load the .45/70 shells off his belt into a '92. I guess I'd rather have one than a derringer in a gunfight.

JHC

Edited November 13, 2024 by Capt. James H. Callahan

[Trigger Mike]

5 hours ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said:

A mare's leg was always one of those "why" things. I guess because Steve McQueen had one on that show. I always wanted to see him load the .45/70 shells off his belt into a '92. I guess I'd rather have one than a derringer in a gunfight.

JHC

I figured it'd be a way to help smaller shooters ,plus make a good truck gun

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

17 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

I figured it'd be a way to help smaller shooters ,plus make a good truck gun

 

If a Mare's Leg is operated from the shoulder, the breech bolt will either tear a cheek or put an eye out. 

[Trigger Mike]

hadn't thought of that

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

19 minutes ago, Trigger Mike said:

I figured it'd make a good truck gun

Not so much. I think that they only hold 6 rounds, so any medium or large frame revolver would be as good or better.

 

[watab kid]

i think it might make a good truck gun - but mine is a keltec sub 2000 and a handfull of spare glock mags , it is the olle glock i own tho , the truck pistol is a S&W 59

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

My younger nephew once traded a Ruger 9mm for a TEC-9 which at the time was a prime target for the anti-gunners because it had a big magazine and looked evil. Only problem was it had practically no sights and about a 25 lb trigger pull. You would do well to hit a refrigerator past 30-40 feet, kinda like a derringer. At least you can slip a derringer in a vest pocket or palm it. 

JHC

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

2 hours ago, watab kid said:

i think it might make a good truck gun - but mine is a keltec sub 2000 and a handfull of spare glock mags , it is the olle glock i own tho , the truck pistol is a S&W 59

Not actual pic, but my truck gun is one of these with an extra mag.

JHC

[watab kid]

27 minutes ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said:

Not actual pic, but my truck gun is one of these with an extra mag.

JHC

 

 

im a fan , thats one of the finest pistols ever made in my book , im a 1911 guy in general , but i know the perfect pistol when i see it , 

 

ive got a lot of 1911s anbd 1935s [P35s} that are great and have proved themselves over the years but i have one M39 and one M59 and i rewally think these are the ultimate carry , i like the DA /SA and decocker lever 

[sassnetguy50]

3 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Not so much. I think that they only hold 6 rounds, so any medium or large frame revolver would be as good or better.

 

Sounds like a good chronograph test.  A 6 inch, 6 shot revolver vs a 12 inch, 6 shot, lever with the chamber cut in the barrel (no pressure loss, shorter or no jump).

[Capt. James H. Callahan]

1 hour ago, watab kid said:

 

 

im a fan , thats one of the finest pistols ever made in my book , im a 1911 guy in general , but i know the perfect pistol when i see it , 

 

ive got a lot of 1911s anbd 1935s [P35s} that are great and have proved themselves over the years but i have one M39 and one M59 and i rewally think these are the ultimate carry , i like the DA /SA and decocker lever 

I too am a 1911 man at heart, but different pistols for different apps. The Smith is a great truck gun, but I'm a small man with no butt and it carries like a brick being so heavy. I'm not a cheerleader, but my carry gun is a Glock 43. It is very accurate, slim and light weight.

zjhv

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

I think it’s useless weapon! I’d much rather go with a revolver!🤠

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On 11/11/2024 at 10:50 AM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

And, who is gonna tell the BATFE, H. K. may have been seen shoulder firing one or all of his Mare's legs??  

 

Well, I thank you for that assurance, Colorado. 

Now, as far as "attempting" to shoulder a Mare's leg type pistol, (And yes, legally, they are pistols) it' fairly impossible since they are so awkward.  Personally, I hold the pistol with both hand, at about the distance from my face as it would be if it were a rifle, right in the centerline of my chest.   I have found that is the easiest and most accurate way to shoot them.

As to the why?  Well, the reality that they are about as practical as a, uhm, nothing, when it comes to them being a practical "weapon" they are gosh all fishhooks FUN to shoot.   Shooting a clear match with them is oddly satisfying.

Sadly, they are NOT SASS legal for some reason.  I think they should be, but they are not.   Some clubs will allow you to shoot them at a local match, but it is always best to ask in advance so as to not create an awkward problem when you get there.

I have no idea how to go about asking those who make the rules if they will consider legalizing them.

 

By the way, a "Terminator 2" style 87, is also against the rules, but all of the above applies to them as well.

 

Okay...  Here goes...

From Top to Bottom.

Uberti 73, 44-40.  16.5" Barrel.   Nobody makes a 73 Mare's Leg, so I found a 16" barrel 73, got a spare buttstock and "Mare's Legged" it.  Added the Rio Bravo style lever.  Overall length is still over 27" so it's not an SBR.  Just a "rifle" with a really short LOP.   I call it a "Buntline Mare's Leg"  Drawing it from a holster is a bizarre thing to do, but worth the smiles.  

AWA Lightning Bolt.  .45 Colt.  These are a rare as hen's teeth.  Supposedly only 8 were made before AWA fell apart.   I was very lucky to get one. 

 

Chiappa 87 "Terminator" shotgun.  18/5" 12 Gauge.   I did also obtain a regular buttstock for it

Chiappa 92, .44 Magnum.   12" Takedown model.   Oddly, it comes from the factory with what they call a D Lever.  I replaced that with their Rio Bravo one.

Interestingly enough, there IS an old west reality to this type of gun...

A few years ago, this showed up for Auction.



I "found" it after the auction was over.   It is an antique, but I have no idea when it was modified or by whom, but it does "prove" that the Mare's Leg concept is an old one.

Sadly, I don't have any video of me SHOOTING the dumb things.   I'll try to remedy that someday.

Oh, and there will soon be another one.    Ever wonder if it'd be possible to have a Mare's Leg in .45-70?

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

6 hours ago, sassnetguy50 said:

Sounds like a good chronograph test.  A 6 inch, 6 shot revolver vs a 12 inch, 6 shot, lever with the chamber cut in the barrel (no pressure loss, shorter or no jump).

Here's how it affects a .357: 158gr Federal JHP, 12" 1654fps , 6" 1465 fps.

In .45 Colt, Federal 225gr Semi Wadcutter, 12" 1005 fps, 6" 891 fps. 

The website is called "Ballistics by the Inch. Here's the link : http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html

 

[sassnetguy50]

2 hours ago, Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770 said:

Here's how it affects a .357: 158gr Federal JHP, 12" 1654fps , 6" 1465 fps.

In .45 Colt, Federal 225gr Semi Wadcutter, 12" 1005 fps, 6" 891 fps. 

The website is called "Ballistics by the Inch. Here's the link : http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html

 

Thank you.  The test I mentioned would be 12" traditional rifle barrel at 1654fps vs 6" revolver (colt python on that site) which tested at 1175fps.  That is a big difference, especially when remembering that rifle barrels are measured to the breach and revolvers are to the cylinder gap.  It would be 12" vs ~7.5".

Edited November 14, 2024 by sassnetguy50
Edit for transparency, that 6" python is a poor example, it is slower than all of the shorter revolvers they tested, ~4-5.9"