44-40 and 44 Russian Practice Ammo Recommendations

[Boggus Deal #64218]

15 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

As I was reading this topic, the mention of a single stage, and a LEE press, and I was starting to hear the NO word in my head. First, I shoot and reload 44-40, and I have two handguns and two rifles in the caliber, so that is 14 seperate chambers to satisfy. The 44-40 case has a shoulder and a tapered wall as well, setting up the dies, and even selecting or selecting dies is a factor. The comment about 38 Special applies, a straight walled case, in such a common caliber, is way simpler. 

 

I do not load BP or APP, no experience there, but for reloading any volume at all the Dillon 550, an entry level progressive press, is just about the minimum I'd want. I had a single stage and as soon as I started loading for cowboy I bought a good quality turret press, and after a year of that I went out and bought a 550. Several months later I added another 550. There are other good progressive presses, but Dillon makes most of them. 

 

 I am curious, what equipment is best for dispensing the BP/APP, and what method is used. My BP experience stops at loading a muzzleloader for whitetail season. 

 

BB

When I was loading APP for Lady Jane, I used a Dillon exclusively. Would have  used the same for true BP had the need came about. 

[Eyesa Horg]

I load real BP on my SDB without issue using the large charge bar.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I reloaded exclusively on a Lee Turret (3-hole, later converted to 4-hole) with Lee dies for 20 years before getting a used 550.  It made great ammo with super easy caliber changes.  It was just slower than the Dillon.

[Eyesa Horg]

8 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

I reloaded exclusively on a Lee Turret (3-hole, later converted to 4-hole) with Lee dies for 20 years before getting a used 550.  It made great ammo with super easy caliber changes.  It was just slower than the Dillon.

I use a 3 hole Lee turret for my 30-30 and 45-70. Use it for 9mm also as at the time I couldn't find a conversion for the SDB. Also have an RCBS single stage dedicated to depriming.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

FWIW, I have two Dillon 550s, and a Lee 4-hole turret press.

Until I started shooting Cowboy, I'd only shot muzzleloaders

When I started CAS, I had never reloaded before, so I started with a Lee 4-hole turret.

Faster than a single stage, not as fast as a progressive.

Eventually, I moved up to a Dillon 550B, but still have use for the Lee.
One Dillon is set up for large primers, and one for small primers.

While I use the 550s most of the time, I still load my 44-40s on the Lee.
I've never liked the way a 550 crimps the 44-40s, so I use the Lee for that.

I also deprime before I wet-tumble, and I use the Lee for that as well.
All my sizing, priming, and belling I do on the 550 for all my cartridges.

I load 38 Special completely on the 550, but do seating & crimping on the Lee for my 44-40s

Yes, it's slower, but I'm not a speed demon when I shoot, and not one when I reload either.

Nowadays, I only load for CAS, and reloading is therapy for me, so I just relax and enjoy it.
When I hunt, I use muzzleloaders, so no reloading for that!
Just a different perspective.

--Dawg

Edited November 11 by Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

My Main Match Caliber is .45   45 is NOT cheap to shoot, except my bullet of choice is the 45 Barnstormer that weighs a whalloping 130Gr.  Just a cheap to shoot as a .38.  My cartridge  of choice is Cowboy 45 special.  Same same load of APP as a .38   So I can shoot my caliber of choice and practice with the same same caliber without huge expense.  Were I not shooting Barnstormers and C45S cases, I'd be practicing with 38s.  Much more economical.

 

So:  JK, I understand you wanna shoot 44-40.  Very KOOL.  Practice with 38s.  Your wallet will like you.

 

My suggestion for a press would be to source up a DILLON 550.  

 

AND:  One can run Black Powder and APP 3f thru a Dillon Powder Measure no sweaty da.   APP 2f does NOT meter well at all.  Scoop APP 2F for Shotgun.

[John Kloehr]

22 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

My Main Match Caliber is .45   45 is NOT cheap to shoot, except my bullet of choice is the 45 Barnstormer that weighs a whalloping 130Gr.  Just a cheap to shoot as a .38.  My cartridge  of choice is Cowboy 45 special.  Same same load of APP as a .38   So I can shoot my caliber of choice and practice with the same same caliber without huge expense.  Were I not shooting Barnstormers and C45S cases, I'd be practicing with 38s.  Much more economical.

 

So:  JK, I understand you wanna shoot 44-40.  Very KOOL.  Practice with 38s.  Your wallet will like you.

 

My suggestion for a press would be to source up a DILLON 550.  

 

AND:  One can run Black Powder and APP 3f thru a Dillon Powder Measure no sweaty da.   APP 2f does NOT meter well at all.  Scoop APP 2F for Shotgun.

Following various suggestions, my revolvers are chambered in 44 Special but I run 44 Russian in those. Supposedly a nice case for APP. I'll find out soon enough.

 

44-40 in the 1873 rifle (though I did buy a very nice example chambered in 38 Special) because 44-40 was the chambering the historic John Kloehr shot, and I just like the feel of the fatter round. Makes me feel cowboyish.

 

I did talk to Dillon a long time ago, no BP including subs is "authorized" or "warranted" to work in their presses. Some here have suggested running an aquarium air pump attached to the powder flask. This is why I bought a good scale and am still wondering if a progressive will work (for cowboy, have other calibers of interest and smokeless).  I do have 12 pounds of APP FFFG. And lots of bullets from Scarlett.

 

 

[John Kloehr]

8 hours ago, "Big Boston" said:

One last comment on price; if cost is an issue, getting into Cowboy Action may not be your game. It's not for the faint of wallet. Yes, we all try and keep it economical, but since COVID, the price we pay has increased, and cheap sometimes takes the fun out of the game. 

 

And if price is a consideration, 44-40 is a poor caliber choice. And don't cry when you don't get 100% of your new Starline brass back after completing a stage. It's like loosing a ball in golf, part of the game. 

 

Most of the time I shoot 38/357, just to simplify things. I bring out the big guns on occasion, they are fun.

 

That being said, for BP/APP, the 44-40 and 38-40 with their thin brass and bottleneck shape are the kings. 

 

BB

LOL sage words! I'm already in SASS over $6,000 just on a quick think. Steel Challenge can be shot for well under $500. I originally started with Steel Challenge just to improve my skills with my carry gun, so less than an additional $100 to cover ammo, gas, entry fee, and two additional mags. Now into over a half dozen sports. Oh, more, forgot sporting clays with a buddy and the AK (not AR) specific events.

 

This all started because a bear ate a dead rabid raccoon on my land so I got a cheap shotgun just in case. Then someone tried breaking into my cabin while I was home so I got my first carry. Then just needed a AR to enjoy 3-gun. But SASS? This has dented my bank account. Reloading will spread out over several sports so I'm not too concerned. If I had to set a budget or expectation, I figure another $1,000 will set me up with a press, numerous dies, and at least well on my way to additional bullets and smokeless powders.

 

But this whole firearms interest has not been inexpensive. At some point, I even bought a safe.

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

FWIW -- I scoop both APP & Black powder when I load -- Only use the Dillon powder measure for smokeless.
Yes, it is slower, but I've never been very comfortable with 1/2 pound of explosives that close to my face.

Yes, I load differently than many others, but I'm only loading for me nowadays, so what difference does it make if it takes a little longer?

--Dawg

[Eyesa Horg]

 

5 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

LOL sage words! I'm already in SASS over $6,000 just on a quick think. Steel Challenge can be shot for well under $500. I originally started with Steel Challenge just to improve my skills with my carry gun, so less than an additional $100 to cover ammo, gas, entry fee, and two additional mags. Now into over a half dozen sports. Oh, more, forgot sporting clays with a buddy and the AK (not AR) specific events.

 

This all started because a bear ate a dead rabid raccoon on my land so I got a cheap shotgun just in case. Then someone tried breaking into my cabin while I was home so I got my first carry. Then just needed a AR to enjoy 3-gun. But SASS? This has dented my bank account. Reloading will spread out over several sports so I'm not too concerned. If I had to set a budget or expectation, I figure another $1,000 will set me up with a press, numerous dies, and at least well on my way to additional bullets and smokeless powders.

 

But this whole firearms interest has not been inexpensive. At some point, I even bought a safe.

With that said... go for the Dillon 550 and be done with it.

[John Kloehr]

1 minute ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

FWIW -- I scoop both APP & Black powder when I load -- Only use the Dillon powder measure for smokeless.
Yes, it is slower, but I've never been very comfortable with 1/2 pound of explosives that close to my face.

Yes, I load differently than many others, but I'm only loading for me nowadays, so what difference does it make if it takes a little longer?

--Dawg

And this is part of wondering if earlier advice to start with a single stage might be prudent. I do have a background in electronics so I will take measures for static electricity. But still, if the powder does not meter reliably then there is a risk of squibs (and again, I'm just good-learned at this point).

 

Some advice I got strongly suggested starting with a single stage so I can focus and understand every step of the process better. The temptation for one pull producing one perfect round is strong but not squibbing in a competition is a competing interest. Also humidity in Tennessee can be bad; while this pretty much eliminates static, I can see it causing clumping.

 

I don't want to throw away the cost of a single stage but I may actually need two presses, one before the other. I also like the thought of swapping plates rather than spending a 1/2 hour changing over, not sure how often I would really do so.

[John Kloehr]

7 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

 

With that said... go for the Dillon 550 and be done with it.

I am torn. I have a lot of reading and review to do. I'm a beginner.

 

My next two days are over-booked, so may not be back here until Thursday.

[Eyesa Horg]

2 minutes ago, John Kloehr said:

I am torn. I have a lot of reading and review to do. I'm a beginner.

 

My next two days are over-booked, so may not be back here until Thursday.

You can still do one at a time in a 550

[John Kloehr]

3 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

You can still do one at a time in a 550

Thanks. Did not even think of this.

 

Like handed out for everyone (if I missed a post, that is my error), thank you all for your input and encouragement. I'll be back. Now need to make some dinner and care for the cats.

 

On edit: This is one of them, was my outdoor/barn cat but the first 2 years were rough on him.

 

Edited November 11 by John Kloehr

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

You can use both the 550 or Lee Turret as a single stage.  3f APP meters fine out of a Dillon measure, and many, many shooters have been loading both BP and APP on Dillons for quite some time.  I do now, too.  I was a NAARTE-certified ESD technician, so I am quite familiar with static.  I don't load real BP on super-dry days when you get a shock touching a doorknob, but otherwise I am not concerned.  I have documented stories of BP accidents, and the only one with a loading press, the guy was actually using pyrodex (which Hodgdon says is safe for powder measures) - but that might have been grain shearing or something else.

 

edit to add: APP used to be very dusty, and the dust left on your press was hygroscopic and could gum things up and rust things if not cleaned off after loading, but the newer stuff is mucho better.  However, I still blow all the dust off after loading any APP.

Edited November 11 by Abilene, SASS # 27489

[Eyesa Horg]

It's not like you're throwing away a bunch of money starting with a single stage press. You'll use it later on after you go to a progressive. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Also, both your Dillon and all your guns will be worth a much higher percentage of their original price in ten years than a bass boat would be. 

[Jackson Haller]

2 hours ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

FWIW -- I scoop both APP & Black powder when I load -- Only use the Dillon powder measure for smokeless.
Yes, it is slower, but I've never been very comfortable with 1/2 pound of explosives that close to my face.

Yes, I load differently than many others, but I'm only loading for me nowadays, so what difference does it make if it takes a little longer?

--Dawg

This is what I do; use those little yellow scoops for filling cases with black powder. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

On 11/11/2024 at 5:00 PM, John Kloehr said:

I did talk to Dillon a long time ago, no BP including subs is "authorized" or "warranted" to work in their presses. Some here have suggested running an aquarium air pump attached to the powder flask. This is why I bought a good scale and am still wondering if a progressive will work (for cowboy, have other calibers of interest and smokeless).  I do have 12 pounds of APP FFFG. And lots of bullets from Scarlett.

 

 

That scale will useful for smokeless propellants. It’s not necessary (nor is the aquarium pump) for BP & subs. Those are loaded by volume, not by weight. 

[evil dogooder]

Hsm is a good choice for purchased ammo.   We carry both the Russian and 44-40  but it is between a buck to buck and a half per round

 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

On 11/11/2024 at 4:45 PM, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

You can use both the 550 or Lee Turret as a single stage.  3f APP meters fine out of a Dillon measure, and many, many shooters have been loading both BP and APP on Dillons for quite some time.  I do now, too.  I was a NAARTE-certified ESD technician, so I am quite familiar with static.  I don't load real BP on super-dry days when you get a shock touching a doorknob, but otherwise I am not concerned.  I have documented stories of BP accidents, and the only one with a loading press, the guy was actually using pyrodex (which Hodgdon says is safe for powder measures) - but that might have been grain shearing or something else.

 

edit to add: APP used to be very dusty, and the dust left on your press was hygroscopic and could gum things up and rust things if not cleaned off after loading, but the newer stuff is mucho better.  However, I still blow all the dust off after loading any APP.

 

Hodgdon changed its advice on Pyrodex.  Here is their statement from their current Cowboy Action brochure.

 

 

I quit running Pyrodex through a powder measure after reading this.  Too bad because dipping powder when reloading is slower than using a measure.

[Eyesa Horg]

I just quit using Pyrodex period

[Savvy Jack]

disregard

Edited November 16 by Savvy Jack

[John Kloehr]

After some reading and a bunch of videos...

 

Fine, I do need to start reloading. I have enough brass to have lost justification to by more factory ammo as a source of brass.

 

Also now just looking a Dillon. Got that down to either the 550 or 750.

 

Trying to summarize (please point out if I am wrong on something)...

 

550 is a 4 station manual advance. No option for case feeder or powder check.

 

750 is a 5 station auto index. 750 can have a case feeder and a powder check station.

 

If I had no plans for rifle calibers, Dillon does have a nice pistol-only 4 station press.

 

But for the 750, there might be a problem having a powder check with some other option (lost the detail in a flood of information) and there is also a 3rd-party fix. Also auto indexing can be a pain if a step goes wrong, though this should be a rare occurrence.

 

Both use the same tooling plates which saves having to set up dies for a caliber change. Not all dies I want are available from Dillon, Dillon "claims" the thread size for dies is the "standard" so I'll have to revisit this too.

 

And since Dillon does not "support" BP or substitutes, I will stay with synthetics for a while longer.

 

I started selecting a 750 with options, got to $2,300 and counting. I think I will call Dillon in the next week for an initial discussion, and do some more learning.

[Eyesa Horg]

I've been using a Dillon SDB, pistol only for 30 plus years with zero issue. BP as well. The big issue with the SDB is it used Dillon only proprietary dies. If you get an extra priming assembly, switching calibers is pretty quick and easy. I got mine on eBay years ago. The extra priming assembly that is.

[El Sobrante Kid]

My personal opinion (I use a 550)... unless you shoot A LOT, or are planning on shooting A LOT in the future, go with the 550, and save a whole bunch of money on the fancy add-on automated gizmos. I have used Lee, RCBS, Redding, and Pacific dies on my 550, so yes, the Dillon can use just about anyone's reloading dies. The one downside is that the 550 only accommodates four dies, not five. It's never been an issue for me, and I seat the bullet and crimp the case in two separate steps.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

I have an aftermarket LED lighting setup on my 550.  I load standing up, and it is very easy to look into the case and see powder, just part of my routine with every stroke.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

CAS is inexpensive compared to aircraft, sailboats or race cars.  However, it helps to have some disposable income.

 

I load cartridges with large pistol primers on a 550, mostly 45 ACP for modern action shooting.  It's easy to clear an occasional malfunction.  Like Abilene I use an aftermarket light to keep an eye on the powder in the cases.  I load 38 Specials on a 650 (similar to a 750).  It has a case feeder and a powder check die.  Since I cannot easily see small powder charges in a 38 Special case the powder check die is needed.  Malfunctions take more time than the 550 to clear but are not too troublesome.  The 650 easily keeps my wife and I supplied with match and practice ammo.  Either a 550 or a 750 will load the ammo you need. 

Edited yesterday at 12:52 AM by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
premature post

[Boggus Deal #64218]

550 is a 4 station manual advance. No option for case feeder or powder check.

 

 

You absolutely can put both on a 550. I have case feeders on both mine and could add powder checks if I wanted to.