Let's talk rifle last & Power factors ----------------

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

I'm glad this was brought up for discussion again.  I don't like doing things a certain way just because they've been being done that way.  However, I think in this case there's plenty of reason to keep on the way we've been doing it.

[Hells Comin]

Couple other things;

Type of powder used

Barrel length 

 

 

Oh yeah and with black powder the timer can't hear thru the smoke. Lol

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

6 hours ago, Hells Comin said:

Couple other things;

Type of powder used

Barrel length 

 

 

Oh yeah and with black powder the timer can't hear thru the smoke. Lol

I'm SOOOO going to use that, and I always quote my sources...

Cheers,

FJT

[Assassin]

If the timer isn't picking up the last shot it's typically operator error.

I watch the videos that are posted and many of the TO's are holding the timer down by their side and never check the timer to see if it's working until the last shot. Yes, stages can be designed for rifles to be shot last with consistent scoring. However, the "that's how we've always done it" folks tend to be the squeaky wheels. 

[oak creek martin]

I too am frustrated when stages are written with the constant rifle not last.  If you know how to adjust the timer, it will pick up all shots. I timed thousands and thousands of 22 cal rifle shots in 4H Western Heritage for years. Very few people even know that you can adjust the sensitivity on timers.

[El Sobrante Kid]

14 hours ago, oak creek martin said:

I too am frustrated when stages are written with the constant rifle not last.  If you know how to adjust the timer, it will pick up all shots. I timed thousands and thousands of 22 cal rifle shots in 4H Western Heritage for years. Very few people even know that you can adjust the sensitivity on timers.

 

I have no doubt that what you are saying is true. But... not every time ever made will work. It would be VERY helpful to state the maker and model of the timers that you used, as well as the settings you used that allowed you to successfully pick up "thousands and thousands of 22 cal rifle shots in 4H Western Heritage for years." Appreciate any additional input you can give us on how to make it work (especially for the .22's). Thx.

[Marshal Stone, SASS #53366]

This past Thursday at an ASI match I was able to pick up shots from a suppressed 9mm with subsonic loads.

Have also picked up suppressed .22's. That one was a little more difficult, but it can be done.

Timer was a Competiton Pro timer. 

 

Just need timer operators not timer holders. There is a huge difference.

 

Marshal Stone

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I love the folks that say 'oh it can be done...no problem"...

 

Then come the conditions...

 

Phantom

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I love the folks that say 'oh it can be done...no problem"...

 

Then come the conditions...

 

Phantom

C'mon Phantom.

I could do it.  You could do it.

There are others on this thread that say they could do it as well.

 

I betcha a GOOD timer operator could handle rifle last timing with a 90 to 95% success rate.

 

But admittedly - not all timer operators are actually "operators" not just "holders" - so their success might be a little lower. 

Maybe 80% or so?

 

But requiring reshoots for those 10 - 20% of shooters for whom the timer operaror or the equipment or perhaps the environment causes a timing failure or scoring discrepancy is a small price to pay compared to the sheer unbridled excitement of shooting the rifle last.

 

I mean at a shoot like EoT with 600 shooters; and figuring 3 of the 12 stages would be rifle last - a 90% success rate would only require 180 shooters to reshoot a stage to have accurate scoring.

 

And even 80% accuracy only means 360 stage reshoots - I wouldn't see anyone having any heartburn with that...

 

Because as I have always said; getting to shoot rifle last should be the pinnacle of anyones CAS shooting experience.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

C'mon Phantom.

I could do it.  You could do it.

There are others on this thread that say they could do it as well.

 

I betcha a GOOD timer operator could handle rifle last timing with a 90 to 95% success rate.

 

But admittedly - not all timer operators are actually "operators" not just "holders" - so their success might be a little lower. 

Maybe 80% or so?

 

But requiring reshoots for those 10 - 20% of shooters for whom the timer operaror or the equipment or perhaps the environment causes a timing failure or scoring discrepancy is a small price to pay compared to the sheer unbridled excitement of shooting the rifle last.

 

I mean at a shoot like EoT with 600 shooters; and figuring 3 of the 12 stages would be rifle last - a 90% success rate would only require 180 shooters to reshoot a stage to have accurate scoring.

 

And even 80% accuracy only means 360 stage reshoots - I wouldn't see anyone having any heartburn with that...

 

Because as I have always said; getting to shoot rifle last should be the pinnacle of anyones CAS shooting experience.

And that's assuming the timer operator NOTICES that they didn't pick up the last shot(s).

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Suppressed rifles are essentially always above 120 db, pistols even more.  Very easily picked up.  Suppressed 22's over 100 db.  Most if the barriers (Often merely nets) are not solid was as we so often have.

We see some clubs shooting from inside a building, shooting out of a window.  Be sure the TO  has his arm out of the window to pick up the shots.  Of course, the TO may have to move the shooter a little to do that. . .

 

Yes, that will work.

 

If you don't have a timer like mine, you need to buy one like mine. . . 

 

Any donations for clubs using the standard PACT and Competition timers we've used for a decade or two?

[Assassin]

I've set up matches where the shooter had to engage rifle targets through a piece of plastic culvert pipe. Cut a hole in the side for the timer, it worked every time.

 

People have become so accustomed to shooting the same old 10-10-4 crap, with little movement. That's why I find other things to do rather than go to cowboy matches. Actually, I'd rather work.

Things need to be mixed up in order to get shooters interested in shooting again. Rifle last on a couple stages could be a piece of the puzzle.

 

 

 

[Cypress Sun]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

I've set up matches where the shooter had to engage rifle targets through a piece of plastic culvert pipe. Cut a hole in the side for the timer, it worked every time.

 

People have become so accustomed to shooting the same old 10-10-4 crap, with little movement. That's why I find other things to do rather than go to cowboy matches. Actually, I'd rather work.

Things need to be mixed up in order to get shooters interested in shooting again. Rifle last on a couple stages could be a piece of the puzzle.

 

 

 

 

I don't know about this "I'd rather work" crap, but I agree with the assessment. 

 

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Are you willing to have your competition's last shot(s) missed on one or more stages at the national or world championships?  Are you willing to bet your placement at any match on another posse's TO catching your competition's last shot(s) every time?

 

When I was fortunate enough to win gunfighter at EOT in 2010, the difference between first and third was about a second.  If we'd had a rifle last stage that 2nd or 3rd place's TO had missed just a couple of shots it could easily have denied me the win.  And I've seen categories won by hundredths of a second.

Edited November 24, 2024 by Possum Skinner, SASS#60697

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

40 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Are you willing to have your competition's last shot(s) missed on one or more stages at the national or world championships?  Are you willing to bet your placement at any match on another posse's TO catching your competition's last shot(s) every time?

 

When I was fortunate enough to win gunfighter at EOT in 2010, the difference between first and third was about a second.  If we'd had a rifle last stage that 2nd or 3rd place's TO had missed just a couple of shots it could easily have denied me the win.  And I've seen categories won by hundredths of a second.

Excellent post as it makes it clear that "rifle last" would further call into question the accuracy of match results.

 

Now...we'll hear things such as poor spotting, inconsistent 170 calls...etc, etc already call into question the accuracy of results. So...yeah, this is true. However, we try to minimize these subjective calls as best we can. Since there are no alternatives to these things we must live with them. But why...seriously, why would one knowingly want add another point of contention to this competition?

 

Sure, we have folks that frankly don't give a damn about the competition side of this game...but, competition will always be an element of CAS. If "you" get rid of this element most folks will be absolutely gone! But...guess some would rather have this game be some odd form of cowboy re-enactment.

 

Phantom

[Assassin]

35 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Are you willing to have your competition's last shot(s) missed on one or more stages at the national or world championships?  Are you willing to bet your placement at any match on another posse's TO catching your competition's last shot(s) every time?

 

When I was fortunate enough to win gunfighter at EOT in 2010, the difference between first and third was about a second.  If we'd had a rifle last stage that 2nd or 3rd place's TO had missed just a couple of shots it could easily have denied me the win.  And I've seen categories won by hundredths of a 

I've seen TO's miss entire pistol and shotgun strings. Some folks are and will never be good RO's. Yes, I'd be willing to take a chance on something new like shooting rifle last. 

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

On 11/9/2024 at 1:49 PM, Indy Kid, SASS #4638 said:

i remember shooting with a shooter who would bring out a Marlin Cowboy in 32 mag only for stages ending with rifle. His times were often questionable on those stages. Gunsmoke tried it once. I watched one shooter reshoot the stage 4 times before he got a usable time. Stage design, TO skill and rifle/load all effect the ability to pickup shots.

Sounds like a SOG issue

[Chickamauga Charlie, SASS #47963]

I shoot regularly at 5 different clubs. Rifle cant be last at 3 of them. For me, i regularly give shooters the option but we dont have prop walls at our monthly matches so its really a non issue. If the muzzle is thru an opening and the shooter's body may prevent the TO from getting into a good position, then it's not the best idea.