Let's talk rifle last & Power factors ----------------

[Captain Bill Burt]

On 11/9/2024 at 2:45 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

This is...practically speaking...impossible.

 

If you are going to write in a finish on rifle stage, facades will play into the equation.

 

I believe that will all the variables (TO attention, Stage configuration, rifle bbl lengths and loads), finishing with the rifle is not good if you want to have a fair and consistent match.

 

Phantom

(The denied Regulator 😆)

 

On 11/9/2024 at 4:43 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

THIS ^^^^^^^.

 

As an experienced TO, I've witnessed failures of the Timer to pick up rifle shots.    Seems most of those failures was due to the

rifle being fired thru a window opening or side areas of a prop.   But the failures were obvious.

 

..........Widder

 

 

On 11/9/2024 at 7:14 PM, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Missing even one rifle shot (if it is last) could change results.  It’s just not worth taking the chance.  I do write scenarios with rifle last at our local once in a while, but would never do it at an annual.

These comments reflect my thinking. 
 

If you have the right stage layout, and if you have an alert TO and if he/she is on their game for every single shooter then yeah rifle can be last and the timer can pick up the shots.

 

OTH, IF any of those things is missing you could have incorrect times.

[watab kid]

18 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The issue is opening up more options for Stage Writers...

 

Phantom

ok , o guess that makes sense - do we need different [better] timers ? 

[Marshal Stone, SASS #53366]

On 11/9/2024 at 10:20 AM, C.C. Moonshine said:

Howdy all,

 

So the topic is rifle last:

 

I've been on a testing mission for the past 5 months to understand the fears of rifle not last in stage design.

I am looking for your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.

 

There is no hidden agenda here, I'm just wondering if the modern timers and T.O. focus can open up a new era for M.D. / stage writing.

 

 

 

CC Moonshine;

 

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this current day real world testing. It mirrors my experience.

 

Contrary to what many may believe about not picking up the last fired round I have picked up suppressed .22

 

Would love to be able to shoot rifle last in both Cowboy and WB. Gives match directors a lot more latitude.

When stages are written as guns in any order, but rifle can't be last, is not really guns in any order now is it?

 

Marshal Stone

[C.C. Moonshine]

14 hours ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

CC Moonshine;

 

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do this current day real world testing. It mirrors my experience.

 

Contrary to what many may believe about not picking up the last fired round I have picked up suppressed .22

 

Would love to be able to shoot rifle last in both Cowboy and WB. Gives match directors a lot more latitude.

When stages are written as guns in any order, but rifle can't be last, is not really guns in any order now is it?

 

Marshal Stone

 

Thanks Marshal for the comment.

 

I realize that this thread was posed as a vague open ended question and I intended it to just roll like it has. 

I know that many situations (i.e. props, flow of stage, open, close bays) can all be factors in stage design and 

T.O. operation, and therefore cause issues with timers. But I also feel that any M.D. with any experience,

writes the stages according to the restrictions or benefits of their range and customs. 

I wanted this to be just a thought provoking thread for some to consider. 

Timers have improved (new ones) to the point that IN SOME stage designs, and at local levels it can be rifle last for a change.

I'm not advocating at big matches where the Cadillac is on the line , but merely for a new spice in the recipe at local clubs, maybe.

To each their own for sure, but I just wanted to post results of my ongoing test.

Our club will be occasionally be adding in rifle last on select stages and see how it goes.

 

Thank you to all that have added constructive comments and let me know if you or your club tries it and the results.

Have a super rest of the week.

 

 

[Black RZR]

We stopped the rifle can’t be last like 3 years ago. Hell even a buckeroo .22 can be last. 

[Black RZR]

Worrying about someone getting an advantage cause the timer won’t pick up last shot not worth it. I worry more about counters that don’t pay attention and shooters that should be getting multiple misses end up clean or 1 miss stage. Or if the counters don’t pay attention for smoke shooters, and we get misses cause of a dead target

[Equanimous Phil]

It's also my experience that picking up rifle shots isn't an issue at our range and stages with rifle last are common. But we do not have any props like walls, windows, doors etc., nobody is shooting .22s, and there are large berms to the next bays.

And a state of the art and properly set up shot timer is also crucial. My AMG Lab Commander has 10 sensitivity levels and set on highest level it picks up dry firing at home. I can’t remember right now which level I use for CAS. But it’s not only about sensitivity, modern shot timers have software implemented to detect shots, not just a certain sound level equals a shot.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

8 hours ago, Black RZR said:

Worrying about someone getting an advantage cause the timer won’t pick up last shot not worth it. I worry more about counters that don’t pay attention and shooters that should be getting multiple misses end up clean or 1 miss stage. Or if the counters don’t pay attention for smoke shooters, and we get misses cause of a dead target

Let me get this clear in my head. You don't care if someone get's an advantage...unless they get an advantage.

 

Gotcha!

 

Phantom

[McCandless]

I'm only relating my experiences with "Rifle Last" stages.  Make of it what you will.

I shoot at a club that sometimes has rifle last stages.  These were all open, with no facades, no windows, no doors, nothing.

 

As a T.O. I was able to pick up all shots, and reliably pick up the last shot.  Calibers used by the shooters ranged from .32 to .45.  No problem.

 

However, I did have the opportunity to time a buckaroo at a recent State Match.   No matter how I tried, I could not pick up the shots fired with his .22 rifle.

Across 10 stages I tried angling the timer, getting it out as far as I could without impeding the shooter.  There were no enclosed stages.

These were "rifle not last" stages.   I could pick up the pistols and shotgun without problem, so all was good.   I'm considering now, what I would have had to do, if these had been "rifle last" stages...

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I hate it when the posse marshal is reading the stage and says "firearms may be shot in any order BUT rifle may not be last."  If rifle may not be last don't waste my time saying firearms may be shot in any order.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

16 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

I hate it when the posse marshal is reading the stage and says "firearms may be shot in any order BUT rifle may not be last."  If rifle may not be last don't waste my time saying firearms may be shot in any order.

Gotta ask. How would you word a stage where you can shoot this way?

 

Phantom

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Lately I'm seeing shooting order simply saying "Rifle not last."  Saves a little printer ink, too.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

How would you word a stage where you can shoot this way?

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I write stages using the "Any order, rifle not last" statement.

 

Open to writing it a different way so long as it's not wordy...so...how would folks write the instructions?

 

Phantom

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Hey griping is free.  Coming up with solutions is hard.  It is just too bad we have to do this and can't address the root cause(s) which so far look like crappy wimpy ammo, crappy poorly designed stage fronts and, the biggest offenders, crappy poorly trained TOs.  Looks like we are doomed to lives of no rifles last.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Hey griping is free.  Coming up with solutions is hard.  It is just too bad we have to do this and can't address the root cause(s) which so far look like crappy wimpy ammo, crappy poorly designed stage fronts and, the biggest offenders, crappy poorly trained TOs.  Looks like we are doomed to lives of no rifles last.

Look...if we can't get TO's to watch the shooter rather than being just a glorified spotter (target watcher), what makes anyone think that we can get TO's to make sure that they are picking up Rifle shots.

 

We are dumbed down to the lowest common denominator.

 

Phantom

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

On 11/10/2024 at 4:52 PM, John Kloehr said:

So "rifle not last" may not make everyone happy, but does seem to make everyone least unhappy.

Given the difficulties of ensuring accurate scoring across a wide variety of variables, especially when facades and cross stage recording are factored in, this quote makes an awful lot of sense to me...

 

Cheers,

FJT

 

 

On 11/10/2024 at 4:52 PM, John Kloehr said:

 

 

[Hells Comin]

Seen quite a few TO's that were just button pushers.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Hells Comin

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Rifle last has a likely hood to add inconsistency to scoring. It’s all good until a buckaroo steps to the line and shoots a .22 through a window. 

[C.C. Moonshine]

4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I write stages using the "Any order, rifle not last" statement.

 

Open to writing it a different way so long as it's not wordy...so...how would folks write the instructions?

 

Phantom

Hi Phantom,

There are a few options here that we use.

1. During stage design, not calling an order beyond "any order" but writing the stage with the rifle being staged as the middle gun used in the direction of the stage. 

2. "starting with Rifle or Shotgun" then the other.

3. Call out rifle to be shot first.

4. Long guns prior to pistols.

5. SG last

Ect.

 

I am of the mindset that everyone willing to pick up the timer, wants to do a great job with it. But some times, it's a matter of bad habits, or experience, or lack of training by a great T.O.

As an example, as a T.O. I if a SG target needs made up, I yell, "UP, Up, Up, " to the shooter until I see them making movements to reengage the target. At a match recently, another T.O. ( very experienced) told a shooter to " get it" the shooter heard " got it" and laid the gun down and started to move, then had to return to the gun to reengage. Simple actions and decisive wording are all elegant ways to become a better or great T.O.

Same with running the timer and catching shots, watching the shooter grip the gun properly, point it properly, and starting the string, it is a moments glance down at the timer to insure it is catching the shots, noting the number of rounds counted and if it is the last firearm for the stage, watching the last 3 shots at least take place on the timer. It's attention to detail, then watching the holster and or the firearm restage.

Just some thoughts and how we do it and instruct new T.O.'s to learn to do it.

 

[Marshal Stone, SASS #53366]

53 minutes ago, C.C. Moonshine said:

.

 

I am of the mindset that everyone willing to pick up the timer, wants to do a great job with it. But some times, it's a matter of bad habits, or experience, or lack of training by a great T.O.

 

 

 

Or disregarding the training they are given.

 Such as claiming they are watching the shooter when they can call out every edge hit.

It is impossible to focus on two plains at the same time.

 

Marshal Stone

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just now, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

Such as claiming they are watching the shooter when they can call out every edge hit.

I see edges all the time...but never "every edge hit".

 

Just like Procedurals, sometimes the TO is in the best position to see these things.

 

Phantom

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I never write rifle last stages because I don’t trust the TO’s on every posse to get the last shot of the rifle/the rifle shots. We use Bluetooth timers from Competition Electronics with the CAS scoring program you can look at split strings in the reports and a lot of the time the rifle splits are missing. 
 

AO

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Yes, allowing rifle last increases the "variety" in staging writing.

 

But - it also increases the "potential" for error and incorrect scoring.

 

In a game where we have taken great pains to remove elements of luck from the scoring - hoping your match has a sufficient number (every posse) of TO's skilled enough and diligent enough to catch the final shot from the rifle seems like a step backwards.

 

Lastly - GOOD stagewriters are perfectly capable of writing entertaining and fun stages under the current "confines" of rifle not last. 

I have written 1000's of stages; some good - some questionable, but never once had a shooter comment that the FIREARM ORDER was the defining factor in their enjoyment or disappointment.

 

If your current stagewriter/ match director is not providing quality stages - allowing participants to shoot their rifle last isn't going to fix it.

Edited November 18, 2024 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I know some will disagree, but I like gun order in matches. I write stages with mixed starting gun order, for example in a 6 stage match your going to start with every gun at least once maybe twice and maybe one or two choice stages. Example: Two stages start with rifle, one time rifle will be on a prop or table and one time in hand or cowboy port arms etc. Same with shotgun and pistols hands on pistols or prop or staged. Never start the same way twice in a match and you have variety, you don’t need rifle last to add variety. 
 

AO

Edited November 18, 2024 by Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385
Added content

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 hours ago, Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 said:

I know some will disagree, but I like gun order in matches. I write stages with mixed starting gun order, for example in a 6 stage match your going to start with every gun at least once maybe twice and maybe one or two choice stages. Example: Two stages start with rifle, one time rifle will be on a prop or table and one time in hand or cowboy port arms etc. Same with shotgun and pistols hands on pistols or prop or staged. Never start the same way twice in a match and you have variety, you don’t need rifle last to add variety. 
 

AO

I pretty much agree with you. Nothing wrong with shooter's choice stages...but having like every stage written that way is boring. And I 100% agree on not repeating starting positions!!!! How lazy is a Stage Writer that can't come up with different starting positions.

 

And folks, starting "at the ready / gun(s) in hand(s)" is not the only starting position allowed...OY!

 

If you as a Stage Writer can't keep your customers entertained with variety...perhaps it's time to pass the torch.

 

Phantom

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I have acquired a Marlin 92.   I plan to try it with .32 Short Colts.   I'd feel very strange if it was last...

Heck, I find myself wondering if it'll even make power factor.   No, I don't intend to use it at a "big" match.    In all truth, I'm even reluctant to use it at a local/monthly because the brass is so hard to find/expensive!

[Totes Magoats]

I'm ok with rifle not being last knowing not all TO's are the same.  Many top shooters are sub 2 second rifle strings.  If shot from the opposite end of the stage as the previous gun, not all TO's are sub 2 second sprinters.  At least with Shotgun or pistols, there's a better chance of getting to a better position with the timer before the last shot is fired.

 

Totes

[Vail Vigilante]

I don't have a problem with rifle not last, but I wonder what type of timers folks are using that the report is a problem?

In one of my other games, I shoot a suppressed 223. Others shoot suppressed 300 Blackouts. On the Blackouts the clack of the AR15 is louder than the report.

We don't have an issue with timers not recording it.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Vail Vigilante said:

I don't have a problem with rifle not last, but I wonder what type of timers folks are using that the report is a problem?

In one of my other games, I shoot a suppressed 223. Others shoot suppressed 300 Blackouts. On the Blackouts the clack of the AR15 is louder than the report.

We don't have an issue with timers not recording it.

Lot's of Pact and Pro...

 

Picking up rifle is truly not easy a lot of the time...

 

Phantom

[El Sobrante Kid]

On 11/19/2024 at 12:09 PM, Vail Vigilante said:

I don't have a problem with rifle not last, but I wonder what type of timers folks are using that the report is a problem?

In one of my other games, I shoot a suppressed 223. Others shoot suppressed 300 Blackouts. On the Blackouts the clack of the AR15 is louder than the report.

We don't have an issue with timers not recording it.

 

What make and model timer(s) are used?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I can see it now.

 

Rifle last is okay...if...

 

1. You're using the "correct" timer

2. You have TO's that are universally fantastic

3. Your facades don't affect the sound waves

4. Your bays are not affected by sounds coming from adjacent bays

 

Hmmmm...

 

Phantom

[Yankee, SASS #266]

49 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I can see it now.

 

Rifle last is okay...if...

 

1. You're using the "correct" timer

2. You have TO's that are universally fantastic

3. Your facades don't affect the sound waves

4. Your bays are not affected by sounds coming from adjacent bays

 

Hmmmm...

 

Phantom

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Ho Kay Folks:  Here it is:  POPCORN,  PEANUTS,  CRACKERJACKS!!!  lets get it to at least THREE PAGES.  Cummon now, HOP TO IT!!

[Hells Comin]

3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I can see it now.

 

Rifle last is okay...if...

 

1. You're using the "correct" timer

2. You have TO's that are universally fantastic

3. Your facades don't affect the sound waves

4. Your bays are not affected by sounds coming from adjacent bays

 

Hmmmm...

 

Phantom

What could possibly go wrong?