Let's talk rifle last & Power factors ----------------

[C.C. Moonshine]

Howdy all,

 

So the topic is rifle last:

 

I've been on a testing mission for the past 5 months to understand the fears of rifle not last in stage design.

I am looking for your thoughts, opinions, and experiences.

 

Let me first explain my experiment. 

I T.O. often and so I set out to try and time every person with the concept of catching every single shot on the timer.

I continually angled the timer towards the muzzles while staying out of the shooters view and away from any obstructions.

I used a multitude of timers and were at a number of different ranges and stages. 

I timed roughly 400 shooters ( CAS, WB, and our tactical training classes) for roughly a total of 10,000 rounds/ shots fired.

I found that if complete attention was given to angle and position of the timer, I was able to capture 100% of the shots.

To again add data to the test, I wrote the stages for our monthly match last month and had 2 stages that you could end with

rifle. We had 2 posses and we had zero issues with times. (disclaimer: at the safety meeting I mentioned to anyone being a T.O. today to pay special attention to the number of shots captured.)

There were in the past 5 months a handful of shooters firing some fairly light loads but all shots were captured on the timer.

 

Please provide your thoughts, opinions, and experiences. 

 

There is no hidden agenda here, I'm just wondering if the modern timers and T.O. focus can open up a new era for M.D. / stage writing.

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

21 minutes ago, C.C. Moonshine said:

I found that if complete attention was given to angle and position of the timer, I was able to capture 100% of the shots.

This is...practically speaking...impossible.

 

If you are going to write in a finish on rifle stage, facades will play into the equation.

 

I believe that will all the variables (TO attention, Stage configuration, rifle bbl lengths and loads), finishing with the rifle is not good if you want to have a fair and consistent match.

 

Phantom

(The denied Regulator 😆)

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I've had real difficulties with Competition Dynamics timers missing shots when timing through smallish windows in props and especially with long barreled .38 rifles and most .22 rifles.  Don't use a lot of other brands of timers.  And yes, that is with adjusting sensitivity to a practical maximum.  

 

Also have seen cross-detection of shots when shooting more than one stage on a single bay (like is done at Ben Avery with the wider bays), if the timers are adjusted to high sensitivity for light reports on "my" stage.

 

good luck, GJ

[Widder, SASS #59054]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

This is...practically speaking...impossible.

 

If you are going to write in a finish on rifle stage, facades will play into the equation.

 

I believe that will all the variables (TO attention, Stage configuration, rifle bbl lengths and loads), finishing with the rifle is not good if you want to have a fair and consistent match.

 

Phantom

(The denied Regulator 😆)

 

THIS ^^^^^^^.

 

As an experienced TO, I've witnessed failures of the Timer to pick up rifle shots.    Seems most of those failures was due to the

rifle being fired thru a window opening or side areas of a prop.   But the failures were obvious.

 

..........Widder

 

[Indy Kid, SASS #4638]

i remember shooting with a shooter who would bring out a Marlin Cowboy in 32 mag only for stages ending with rifle. His times were often questionable on those stages. Gunsmoke tried it once. I watched one shooter reshoot the stage 4 times before he got a usable time. Stage design, TO skill and rifle/load all effect the ability to pickup shots.

[Sedalia Dave]

As stated above when shooting through windows and other small openings it is hard to get a timer to pick up mouse fart loads.

 

We shoot a lot of Rimfire Steel Challenge as a side match at my home club. When shooting the rifle loaded with standard velocity .22s through a window the timer doesn't pick the shots unless you stand close enough to the shooter so that the timer is also out the window.  Had a lot of reshoots because the timer was not consistently picking up the shots.

 

To correct this problem several of us had a fellow shooter and gunsmith thread our barrels so we could install a very inexpensive muzzle brake. With the muzzle brake installed the timer no longer has no issues picking up the rifle shots.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

10 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

As stated above when shooting through windows and other small openings it is hard to get a timer to pick up mouse fart loads

Well it didn't take long to get the old "mouse fart loads" comment...

 

Phantom

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

PLUS ONE fer the guys before me.  Trying to end with the rifle is a real BAD idea.  

[Sixgun Seamus]

At my home club I write stages with rifle last. We have no facades or windows to shoot through so we have no problems with picking up rifle shots as long as the TO does his job properly. On the other hand, I once asked Lassiter that very question about rifle last. His answer was that with some longer barrels and even regular loads, the timer will sometimes miss shots. I've had the opportunity  to time him at several shoots. Standing behind him and keeping out of his peripheral vision with no windows or facades, the timer did not pick up some of his 38's from a 26 inch barrel. The timer was held properly facing the shots. If a club has windows and facades, it is probably best to have rifle not last. In my situation at my club, I will continue to write stages with gun order being shooters choice. It adds many more possibilities in how a shooter wants to shoot the stage. I personally don't like rifle not last but if that is the way a stage is written, I'll shoot it that way. No problem.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

C.C.  well I guess some folks have had some different results.  But since the main complaint is shooting through windows and such, maybe rifle could be last on more open stages?

[Hells Comin]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well it didn't take long to get the old "mouse fart loads" comment...

 

Phantom

Let's change the power factor in rifles to 170 and require that barrels have  popple holes- problem solved. 

Edited November 9 by Hells Comin

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

18 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

C.C.  well I guess some folks have had some different results.  But since the main complaint is shooting through windows and such, maybe rifle could be last on more open stages?

Main complaint...maybe. But if weighed it might be rather insignificant.

 

Expecting the TO to consistently make sure they are in position to pick up light loads is right up there in the complaint scale.

 

Phantom

 

[August West, SASS #45079]

It is surprising how many shooters (and R/Os) do not know where the microphone is on a shot timer.

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

Missing even one rifle shot (if it is last) could change results.  It’s just not worth taking the chance.  I do write scenarios with rifle last at our local once in a while, but would never do it at an annual.

[Griff]

Having been around since before the "rifle not last" recommendation, I can unequivocally say we didn't have any such problem when using stop watches...   However the consistency and impartiality of TOs often was...  Seriously tho', it was a relative rarity when SASS had a minimum 650 fps velocity for ammo.  And concede that stage layouts and props were far less obtrusive, to the point that sometimes they consisted simply of a table to lay your rifle & shotgun on. And, by the same token, while not picking up rifle shots with the timer was nearly non-existent, picking up shots from adjacent stages was.  Even the same brand & model of timer will have variances in sensitivity between individual units.  Stage layout and prop placement can seriously affect the ability of timers to correctly record rifle shots.  As does TO correctly orienting the timer. 

 

I dislike the "rifle not last" recommendation as it stymies a whole raft of scenario  writing possibilities.  One way to keep that ability is to use rifle KDs whenever the rifle is used last.  I'll not accuse folks of using a steady diet of mouse phart loads since that seems offensive to some, but... I've heard & read many statements by shooters, (I'll assume mainly are the ones using lighter than air bullets and only the fragrance of powder), to the effect that they have "special loads" loads when confronted with KDs.

[Wild Eagle]

One of the clubs I shoot at has a stage that is almost completely open to the front, mostly closed behind the firing line, and has a low tin roof.  We allow rifle to be last on that stage, and it works because the low tin roof amplifies the sound.  I TO at several clubs pretty often and know that rifle shots are not always picked up.  Most of us are shooting 38 specials, and if I'm out of their way and looking at what the shooter is doing, I may not have the timer in the exact position to pick up every rifle shot.  I do ensure that the timer is in the correct position to pick up the last shot of the stage, but since that is either a pistol or shotgun it's pretty easy.  As a TO I do not want to focus my complete attention to the angle and position of the timer.  I'm supposed to be watching the shooter and making sure that he's being safe.  As our membership ages and things get more expensive, I'm seeing more people shooting 22.  Try to pick up a 22 coming out of a 24" barrel.  I have played with this at my home range and also at side matches.  Even the direction the wind is blowing can make a difference.  I think you're looking for a solution to a problem that really doesn't exist or is such a small problem that the cure is worse than the disease.

 

I did like the 6.28 time I got last week on a stage though.  One of my top 10 times.  And, YES, I reshot it.  Although a little slower.😄

[Rye Miles #13621]

With ammo and components at an all time high do you really want to risk the timer not picking up the rifle and  having to reshoot? Rifle NOT being last saves time and money. Why chance it?

We have a rimfire challenge (.22’s)?and we have the room to get the timer close to the rifles not so at a cowboy shoot! 

Edited November 10 by Rye Miles #13621

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

A 250gr 45 Colt load at 800fps is 200fps below the SASS legal maximum velocity in a revolver.  It's legal. But some people feel it's ok to worry and complain about those shooters who are also shooting legal loads well below the maximum allowed.

[Flyin Shootest]

15 hours ago, Indy Kid, SASS #4638 said:

i remember shooting with a shooter who would bring out a Marlin Cowboy in 32 mag only for stages ending with rifle. His times were often questionable on those stages. Gunsmoke tried it once. I watched one shooter reshoot the stage 4 times before he got a usable time. Stage design, TO skill and rifle/load all effect the ability to pickup shots.

 

While I certainly would like to have the option of having rifle last as it increases the options a stage writer has.

 

I recall being intimately involved with this very situation, the timers were PACT club timers (I believe version 2)  and experienced T.O's were involved..  The shots from the rifle were not constantly picked up, and rifle being last the shooter did get times that were shorter than what should have been recorded.  The shooter was ultimately made to re-shoot the stage several times and in the end the shots were recorded but the timer had to be placed on a table in front of the rifle shooting position after the start to get the true final shot.  As you can well imagine there is a considerable amount of pain and heartache involved with the situation, one that I care never to repeat.

 

 At the time, no power factor challenge was done, and probably should have been, BUT well after the fact the load recipe was duplicated and a comparable results were obtained, the power factor on the .32 caliber 90 or so grain round a wispier of powder, and hominy grits for filler with a power factor right at 410 to 420.. Somewhere I have the exact recipe but I cannot locate it at the moment.

 

In testing the PACT timer would not reliably pick up all the shots and my Competition Electronics Pro timer with the sensitivity set to maximum (default sensitivity setting the results were the same as the PACT) did seem to get the shots..

 

Fast forward to today and now having experienced with suppressed .22 equipment, subjectively the noise produced would be comparable but one would need to do some scientific analysis to confirm this opinion.

 

Maybe the newer more modern and sensitive shot timers with someone paying attention might get all the shots but I would not want to run multiple shooters that way with the extra attention and effort that would need to be set forth by the T/O.

 

Finally, this specific situation the the only one in the past 25 years I have had this specific experience with, I believe everyone involved but myself closely involved has exited the sport in some fashion, most being the "Big exit in the sky".  The situation could be re-engineered if there was an incentive.  It would be good to have some discussion as to how one could adjust the rules such that we could allow rifle to be last, but as things stand today, I know it can be done to be rule compliant, and have rifle rounds that are very difficult to reliably capture.

 

F.S.

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

11 hours ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

A 250gr 45 Colt load at 800fps is 200fps below the SASS legal maximum velocity in a revolver.  It's legal. But some people feel it's ok to worry and complain about those shooters who are also shooting legal loads well below the maximum allowed.

I would say that no one should tell a competitor that is using legal ammo that they can't use that ammo.

 

That said, there are reasons why that might not be the best thing. Why?

1. Hard on folk's hearing

2. Beats the crap outta cheap steel...that some clubs use because they can't afford good steel.

 

So comparing complains of upper limit legal rounds to lower limit legal rounds is a faulty analogy. The lower limit legal ammo users generally only hurt themselves via misses called because of the lack of target report.

 

Phantom

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

1 hour ago, Flyin Shootest said:

 

  the power factor on the .32 caliber 90 or so grain round a wispier of powder, and hominy grits for filler with a power factor right at 410 to 420..

 

Current minimum power factor is 60, so I'd say they were over-achieving.

Edited November 10 by Possum Skinner, SASS#60697

[Rye Miles #13621]

8 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Current minimum power factor is 60, so I'd say they were over-achieving.

Power Factors The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories in all SASS matches, including State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps.

Edited November 10 by Rye Miles #13621

[Flyin Shootest]

4 minutes ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

Current minimum power factor is 60, so I'd say they were over-achieving.

OOPS, one of those days...  velocity not power factor..  I wish I could find that data I had/have.  I think this all happened like 2009 or 2010, and I remember the load was compliant with the rules, but just barely, and as this was an individual that I shot with often multiple times a month, and the load was specifically worked up to shoot at the absolute minimum velocity and PF and yet be reliable with no squibs.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I would say that no one should tell a competitor that is using legal ammo that they can't use that ammo.

 

That said, there are reasons why that might not be the best thing. Why?

1. Hard on folk's hearing

2. Beats the crap outta cheap steel...that some clubs use because they can't afford good steel.

 

So comparing complains of upper limit legal rounds to lower limit legal rounds is a faulty analogy. The lower limit legal ammo users generally only hurt themselves via misses called because of the lack of target report.

 

Phantom

I'd prefer that they change the rules to whatever level is needed then rather then hear complaints only on one end of what's legal. 

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Flyin Shootest said:

OOPS, one of those days...  velocity not power factor..  I wish I could find that data I had/have.  I think this all happened like 2009 or 2010, and I remember the load was compliant with the rules, but just barely, and as this was an individual that I shot with often multiple times a month, and the load was specifically worked up to shoot at the absolute minimum velocity and PF and yet be reliable with no squibs.

In which case those loads were not legal... 90 grains x 420 fps / 1,000 = 37.8 power factor.  It's not an either/or rule.  From the 2024 SHB:

Quote

The minimum standard for center-fire ammunition used in all smokeless categories in all SASS matches, including State, Regional, National, International, and World Championship competitions is not less than a minimum power factor of 60 and no velocity may be less than 400 fps.

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

There is no requirement that I am aware of that requires the timer to pick up EVERY shot.  It only needs to pick up the LAST SHOT.  For that reason, I don't think "rifle last" is a good idea.  Besides, where is the problem with "rifle not last??"

[Cinch]

How can ya ever trust speed rifle side match times 😬

 

okay headed to shoot…

[High Plains Hud SASS#64232]

You cant😂  Always …

[Flyin Shootest]

Attempting to get the aircraft back on course.

 

The topic at hand was to discuss Rifle not last.  To that end, I have personal knowledge that SOME timers CAN have difficulty picking up shots from a rifle with ammunition at no more than the minimum requirements, even with some of the most vigilant T/O's in control.  Obviously others have had similar experience hence the reason for the guidance to not end with the rifle whenever possible.  When the situation happens it does cause controversy, and unhappy customers.

 

This guidance significantly reduces the options to execute a given scenario, and to keep things interesting it would be nice to have the option to end with the rifle as what used to be the case in Wild Bunch.

 

The goal here is to safely enjoy the shooting sport and to have a consistent  metric to  fairly measure performance across entire scope of competitors.

 

All T/O’s are not equal, all are human, thus all make mistakes from time to time.  Not all timers are calibrated exactly the same, some new, some old, some in disrepair.   Thus drawing me back to the concept of how can we consider these factors and provide for consistency.

 

Allowing the rifle to be last introduces the potential incentive for a competitor to game the system. IMHO, doing so is not in the cowboy way, and I wonder how many really would go to the effort to do so, but there will always be someone.

 

The question I have is can we somehow tweak the rules in a direction that would mitigate the possibility of the last shot from a rifle to not be captured, possibly by increasing the minimum power factor slightly, decreasing the likelihood of a missed shot, but yet ,not introduce some unintended consequences?    

 

I find myself wondering how many are really producing ammo at the minimums as it has been my experience to come up with a recipe that is at the minimum levels, with the ammo reliable and consistent is a great deal of extra effort

 

F.S.

 

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

Too many variables that could lead to incorrect scoring. TO doesn't catch that the last shot didn't register shooter gets and incorrect time, or shooter just has a fast, flawless run and TO says it didn't catch the last shot, you'll have to reshoot.

Edited November 10 by SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

2 hours ago, Flyin Shootest said:

Attempting to get the aircraft back on course...The question I have is can we somehow tweak the rules in a direction that would mitigate the possibility of the last shot from a rifle to not be captured, possibly by increasing the minimum power factor slightly, decreasing the likelihood of a missed shot, but yet ,not introduce some unintended consequences?...

Here is my thought.  .22 rifles seems to be the biggest complaint.  Though some clubs may offer it, for SASS officially it is just Buccaroos.  How's about, rifle CAN be last, but ONLY on shooter's choice scenarios, EXCEPT for .22's.  All Bucaroos (how do you spell that?) will still be on an equal playing field with each other.  It would be up to match director's discretion as to what stage setups  would work best (no windows, open front with ceiling to amplify sound, etc.).  Stage instructions would say "Firearm order is shooter's choice, except .22 rifle may not be last."  The ".22" is the only addition.  Stages which are NOT shooter's choice would continue to be written as they have been with rifle not last.

[John Kloehr]

Between "some timers" and barriers ("facades"). the rule makes absolute sense.

 

There is generally no problem in another sport I shoot in (steel challenge) but my lady who also shoots it has a muzzle device which reduces recoil. As a result, some of the muzzle sound energy comes back towards the timer. Sometimes I (with no device) get a better time than I expected and this may be due to a missed registration.

 

For actual serious matches in that sport, the timers are mounted on the actual plates. 22lr from a rifle with no recoil management is not reliably registered on hand-held timers. There is no way I nailed 5 plates in 2.78 seconds.

 

On edit: No problem with the buckaroo category either. And if a timer failure gives them a better time, let them have it or a reshoot.

Edited November 11 by John Kloehr

[John Kloehr]

As to "mouse phart" loads. I do hear this even from folks in related communities. I do see a challenge in having a timer reliably register a mouse phart on a particular stage yet not register another competitor creating BOOMs next door. This spectrum is not common in other sports.

 

So "rifle not last" may not make everyone happy, but does seem to make everyone least unhappy.

Edited November 14 by John Kloehr
Otto let the first phart go but did not like the second

[watab kid]

much as ive enjoyed this thread for reading , i dont see the issue here - dont finish with the rifle ? whats the problem ? 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

5 minutes ago, watab kid said:

much as ive enjoyed this thread for reading , i dont see the issue here - dont finish with the rifle ? whats the problem ? 

The issue is opening up more options for Stage Writers...

 

Phantom